ASA decertification/recall/single list

[Speedtape]

You're right. A scope clause really isn't worth the paper its written on in our modern world of aviation.

So how can we pull this off?

Simple. The new reality is that whether we like it or not, we MUST play the game management has on the table.

The only effective scope is to provide a quality product at an advantageous price relative to our competetors so that management has no reason to transfer our jobs.

We need to shed this pre-deregulation mindset as a group. We MUST compete, whether we like it or not.

We are competing. We have the some of the lowest 50 seat wages in the industry. The 70 seat rates are competitive but probably can't move much.
There has been a wage freeze for about 4+ years.

The real solution to improving life for the long run for any regional pilot is to hire on at Delta, FedX, UPS, Southwest, Continental, or any other viable major carrier that appears viable and is hiring in the future. The regionals are farm teams and will never have the benefits or the pay that a major can offer. Regionals never have been, not now, or never will be the best final career choice for the vast majority of pilots. At the very best, it's simply a job, not a good career choice.

 

[John Pennekamp]

We are competing. We have the some of the lowest 50 seat wages in the industry. The 70 seat rates are competitive but probably can't move much.
There has been a wage freeze for about 4+ years.

The problem with your agrument is you're thinking in the present. When you look to the future, and include the QOL improvements, the pay raises, and the retro/signing bonus currently on the table, we are putting ourselves WAY above everybody.

What's sad is that the CNC chairman can't even come up with a number for the total proposed package cost. Someone asked that on the conference call too, and he just dodged the question. That's actually more scary than sad.

The real solution to improving life for the long run for any regional pilot is to hire on at Delta, FedX, UPS, Southwest, Continental, or any other viable major carrier that appears viable and is hiring in the future. The regionals are farm teams and will never have the benefits or the pay that a major can offer. Regionals never have been, not now, or never will be the best final career choice for the vast majority of pilots. At the very best, it's simply a job, not a good career choice.

So do you have your apps out to those companies? If you say yes, we know you're lying, because you're ASA lifer #1. Maybe you should take your own advice before you dish it out to other people. Let us know when Delta hires you, LOL. :laugh:

 

[wms]

The problem with your agrument is you're thinking in the present. When you look to the future, and include the QOL improvements, the pay raises, and the retro/signing bonus currently on the table, we are putting ourselves WAY above everybody.

And we're worth it. Too bad you don't think so. Don't drag everyone else down because you and JB want to secure your future at a commuter for less than you deserve. If ASA is not willing to pay us what we're worth then they should wither on the vine while we go on to greener pastures.

 

[John Pennekamp]

And we're worth it. Too bad you don't think so. Don't drag everyone else down because you and JB want to secure your future at a commuter for less than you deserve. If ASA is not willing to pay us what we're worth then they should wither on the vine while we go on to greener pastures.

If you come up with an intelligent, factual rebuttal, feel free to fire away. If all you've got is more innuendo and personal discreditation, save it, because it's already been done.

 

[wms]

My innuendo is this, I'm not willing to work for less than I'm worth and I expect a QOL that doesn't negatively impact my family. And it irks me when a few guys with no stomach for a fight are willing to sell out the majority for their own interests. I've merely been giving my own opinions on these issues and now you want to try an attack. Go ahead, it's not going to change my perspective or expectations. I'm no ALPA warrior and no company-man. I'm enjoying working here, and hopefully I'll move on. I'm a good employee and expect to be treated and compensated like one. And that's worth standing up for.

And if SKYW,inc wants to take the easy way out and eliminate us for expecting what's fair, that's their option. My life will go on without them.

 

[Oakum_Boy]

Absolutely nothing gets done without unity. This drivel about decertification and whatever garbage only gives management more confidence that a strike effort will fail. You saw the Fedex guys get a contract within a year? It's called UNITY. Go ahead and get hired at Fedex and try this ********************. You will be marked for the rest of your career there.

 

[Rez O. Lewshun]

John Penne-

your post #29 is good stuff... I am proud of you. Actually what you could do is get each LEC to pass the same Rez O. Lewshun. Then you can politic each MEC member to pass an MEC version.... You might have to wordsmith it a bit to make it acceptable to more elected officials...

Its not that the ALPA reps "know more" or have inside information its just that everyone sees things differently and the bigger the group the more people you have to appease...

 

[JoeMerchant]

When CHQ did it, Republic was just a threat. They had no certificate, no airplanes, and they had no pilots other than a few management types. They got the scope they wanted pretty cheap because there wasn't much substance there. Apples to oranges.

Freedom and Mesa was a little bit different situation, as Freedom was already operating. Still, Freedom was just a small percentage of ASMs of Mesa Air Group as a whole, and the union had to pretty much give away the farm to secure scope.

Now, let's look at ASA/SkyWest. ASA is less than half, probably closer to 35-40% of total SkyWest, Inc. flying. What kind of leverage do we have to force single list? More importantly, how can the little guy scope in the big guy? I'm not saying it can't be done, but I just don't see how it can be. All the American Eagle carriers had a management that was receptive to a single certificate (well, two technically, but single list nonetheless) for all Eagle flying, and they still had to accept a 16-year contract to secure it. With a hostile management group, over half of the pilot group of Inc. not wanting single list (mainly because they're much more junior and also receiving all the growth at ASA's expense), how can we pull this off?

Your absolute correct Sweptback, CHQ and Mesa nipped it in the bud early, and paid less. We will have to either dig deep, or get a release and make a single list the only issue. What do you suggest?

A "trophy" contract without scope will be meaningless as Skywest transfers assets. What is ALPA's solution? What is your solution? Should we sacrifice ourselves on ALPA's alter? Without scope, the rest of the contract is meaningless.... unfortunately the CNC chairman doesn't understand this...

I will agree that it may be too late.... however IF it is too late, then why worry about the rest of the contract????

 

[JoeMerchant]

LEC meeting on June 21st. Please come and voice your concerns. It really is that simple.

It's not that simple.... it will be the same 30 people slapping each other on the back for doing such a "great job"..... meanwhile, the portfolio concept will continue to make ALPA irrelevant while you ALPA true believers ignore the new reality.......

 

[Rez O. Lewshun]

It's not that simple.... it will be the same 30 people slapping each other on the back for doing such a "great job".....

And why is the rest of the membership not active?

The fact is Joe, either you can handle an LEC meeting or not. Actually it is easier to pass a Rez O. Lewshun with less people...

If your cause had merit and integrity then it would pass whether its the same 30 guys or new faces. Your resolution would pass if you work with others to ensure the document was agreeable and that you politcked the issue before the meeting began....

meanwhile, the portfolio concept will continue to make ALPA irrelevant while you ALPA true believers ignore the new reality.......

This is your problem Joe... if others don't think like you then you criticize. You will never be effective as long as you continue to be adversarial... no one wants to work with you because you can't negotiate, work with other and compromise..... there for you sue.



Next....

 

[JoeMerchant]

Let's see if I understand this right:
We are going to get one list with Skywest because we hate ALPA national.
We are going to de-certify ALPA if we do not get this done.
We are going to look like damn idiots coming up with ideas like this!

No you don't have it right
We are going to get one list WITHOUT ALPA.... National IS the problem..
We are going to de-certify ALPA if we do not get scope... IE one list...
We are damn idiots if we believe ALPA can achieve scope for any of it's regionals....

WTF? Why does anyone now doubt that the RJDC is really a management construct to destroy ALPA from within?

It isn't a management construct.... ALPA is doing just fine destroying itself from the inside.....

This sounds curiously similar to that stuff a while back about "just elect our people to run ASA ALPA-we will have a contract withing x-number of days or we will all resign....

Well, we would have a contract...... instead, we are going to just flop around in contract purgatory......

 

[outtahere]

You're right. A scope clause really isn't worth the paper its written on in our modern world of aviation.

So how can we pull this off?

Simple. The new reality is that whether we like it or not, we MUST play the game management has on the table.

The only effective scope is to provide a quality product at an advantageous price relative to our competetors so that management has no reason to transfer our jobs.

We need to shed this pre-deregulation mindset as a group. We MUST compete, whether we like it or not.

Why not hire mgmt that is worth their salt that can manage a profitable airline no matter what pilot costs are? Oh thats right we don't hire mgmt. Hey guess what, we also don't buy airplanes, or control where they fly. Delta has proven that they don't give a crap about quality, they have hired freedom and pinnacle. Your comments are exactly what mgmt wants to here, you are willing to continue to lower the bar to keep our flying, so where does it end? As soon as someone takes a cheaper contract to have an "advantageous" price are we to follow? Your comments make you sound job scared, you have already lost for this pilot group.

 

[JoeMerchant]

You're right. A scope clause really isn't worth the paper its written on in our modern world of aviation.

So how can we pull this off?

Simple. The new reality is that whether we like it or not, we MUST play the game management has on the table.

The only effective scope is to provide a quality product at an advantageous price relative to our competetors so that management has no reason to transfer our jobs.

We need to shed this pre-deregulation mindset as a group. We MUST compete, whether we like it or not.

Welcome to the party JP..... I have been saying this for 5 years now....

ALPA needs to either stop the competition within a brand, or we need to compete with everyone else..... it's really quite simple....

A real union would stop the competition within a brand.... with ALPA however, we probably need to just compete with everyone else...

 

[Rez O. Lewshun]

Welcome to the party JP..... I have been saying this for 5 years now....

And what has changed?

ALPA needs to either stop the competition within a brand, or we need to compete with everyone else..... it's really quite simple....

HOW does a union control market forces in the biggest capitalistic country in the world.

A real union

Like whom? Joe's union?

would stop the competition within a brand....

How? lawsuits?

with ALPA however, we probably need to just compete with everyone else...

hmmm are your expectations not being met Joe.....??

 

[JoeMerchant]

And we're worth it. Too bad you don't think so. Don't drag everyone else down because you and JB want to secure your future at a commuter for less than you deserve. If ASA is not willing to pay us what we're worth then they should wither on the vine while we go on to greener pastures.

wms, I'm not going to speak for JP, but I think I am worth what the market pays... what do you think we are worth?

What are we "worth"? Give specifics....

What do we "deserve"? Give specifics...

Why haven't you gone to "greener pastures"? Everyone else is leaving, why aren't you?

 

[JoeMerchant]

My innuendo is this, I'm not willing to work for less than I'm worth and I expect a QOL that doesn't negatively impact my family. And it irks me when a few guys with no stomach for a fight are willing to sell out the majority for their own interests. I've merely been giving my own opinions on these issues and now you want to try an attack. Go ahead, it's not going to change my perspective or expectations. I'm no ALPA warrior and no company-man. I'm enjoying working here, and hopefully I'll move on. I'm a good employee and expect to be treated and compensated like one. And that's worth standing up for.

And if SKYW,inc wants to take the easy way out and eliminate us for expecting what's fair, that's their option. My life will go on without them.

You are so naive wms.... SKYW Inc. will go on with or without you... they don't need YOU......... all they need is your aircraft, your gate, and your Delta route.... they can have that without you.......

Jerry's life will go on with or without you.....

 

[JoeMerchant]

Absolutely nothing gets done without unity. This drivel about decertification and whatever garbage only gives management more confidence that a strike effort will fail. You saw the Fedex guys get a contract within a year? It's called UNITY. Go ahead and get hired at Fedex and try this ********************. You will be marked for the rest of your career there.

To have unity, you need to be united.... ALPA isn't united, and thus there is no unity... quit trying to put a square peg in a round hole.....

 

[JoeMerchant]

And why is the rest of the membership not active?

At the regional level, it is because they only care about getting PIC time so they can make it to the "big leagues".... The 250 hour wonder kid doesn't understand the issues, and doesn't care... in fact, he isn't going to stick his nose in our argument because he just wants to keep his nose clean....

The fact is Joe, either you can handle an LEC meeting or not. Actually it is easier to pass a Rez O. Lewshun with less people...

It is a waste of time Rez.... as is an LEC meeting.... I believe it is ALPA that is hampering a single list at Skywest Inc. as it was during the ASA/CMR/DAL PID..... ALPA is protecting ALPA, not me.... I am done working within the system... the system is broken...

If your cause had merit and integrity then it would pass whether its the same 30 guys or new faces. Your resolution would pass if you work with others to ensure the document was agreeable and that you politcked the issue before the meeting began....


This is your problem Joe... if others don't think like you then you criticize. You will never be effective as long as you continue to be adversarial... no one wants to work with you because you can't negotiate, work with other and compromise..... there for you sue.

Next....

The resolution is irrelevant if it doesn't threaten ALPA.... the local ALPA reps. don't want to pi$$ off ALPA because they don't want to lose the 1.5 million a year in full time ALPA leave... the system is corrupt and is designed to protect ALPA, not the ASA pilots.....

I'm not running for ALPA office, and I am not politicing. I am protecting my job, and I don't give a d@mn about ALPA.... that is your problem, not mine...

 

[JoeMerchant]

And what has changed?

Absolutely NOTHING.....

HOW does a union control market forces in the biggest capitalistic country in the world.

It doesn't "control" it, rather it deals with it.... How does the ABA, and AMA deal with capitalism? Maybe some transportability of seniority and some barriers to entry Rez.... what do ya think.... they do it... why can't we?

Prater is testifying about the low experience level of entry level 121 pilots, and how it is a concern... do you support ALPA in questioning the experience level of 121 pilots?

hmmm are your expectations not being met Joe.....??

No they aren't Rez.... and I am doing something about it.... you don't agree, but that isn't my concern.......

 

[wms]

You are so naive wms.... SKYW Inc. will go on with or without you... they don't need YOU......... all they need is your aircraft, your gate, and your Delta route.... they can have that without you.......

Jerry's life will go on with or without you.....

Let it. If it comes down to it I'll leave to work where I'm paid what I'm worth. I've got principle and the spine to back it up. Read my posts. I know very well JA can liquidate us to get us out of his hair. If he does that so be it, but I've got enough pride not to become another Mesa.

 

[JoeMerchant]

Let it. I'll work where I'm paid what I'm worth.

1. I thought I was on your ignore list..... I guess that was just a bluff much like the rest of the chest thumping I hear...

2. What's stopping you from going to someplace where your paid what your worth? Go already.... By the way, what do you think an international widebody pilot for United, Delta, or NWA is worth? Are they getting paid what "they are worth"?

3. Are you ready to discuss the fact that Jerry can still realize his investment without you? Are you ready to demand that your bargaining agent get some scope so that you can work on the rest of the contract?

I know..... I am going on the "ignore" list because you don't want to deal with reality....

 

[wms]

The reality is you're worried about your future at ASA. I'm concerned too. But I'm not going to settle. I want a rewarding career here until or if I leave. I'm no union warrior, just a guy who wants what a proper day's pay for a proper day's work.

 

[JoeMerchant]

The reality is you're worried about your future at ASA. I'm concerned too. But I'm not going to settle. I want a rewarding career here until or if I leave. I'm no union warrior, just a guy who wants what a proper day's pay for a proper day's work.

You didn't answer the questions wms..... much like the rest of the ALPA chest thumpers.....

What is a Delta, NWA, United widebody captain worth? Are they getting paid what they are worth?

What sets the "worth" of a pilot?

Is Jerry free to realize the benefits of ASA withour YOU? Can he shift the flying to Skywest?

What if your fellow union "brothers" are paid less for the 700? Does that change your worth?

Answer the questions WMS..... quit spewing ALPA rhetoric..... Put down the ALPA crack pipe for just a minute...

How are you reading my posts? I thought you put me on your ignore list... ahhh... more ALPA chest thumping..... all bark and no bite......

 

[wms]

You didn't answer the questions wms..... much like the rest of the ALPA chest thumpers.....

What is a Delta, NWA, United widebody captain worth? Are they getting paid what they are worth?

What sets the "worth" of a pilot?

What if your fellow union "brothers" are paid less for the 700? Does that change your worth?

Answer the questions WMS..... quit spewing ALPA rhetoric.....

I'm not a pilot at those airlines, I'm a pilot at the most profitable regional that happens to want to take the cheap route. We're worth what we can negotiate, and I know we can negotiate better than what we have. My perspective is based on what meets the needs of my family and me, not union politics. And when and if a TA comes out, that's how I'll base my vote. If it's good I'll be content, if not I'll reconsider my options. So don't drag me into your fight.

Wanting the best I can get for my family isn't rhetoric or chest-thumping.

 

[JoeMerchant]

I'm not a pilot at those airlines, I'm a pilot at the most profitable regional that happens to want to take the cheap route. We're worth what we can negotiate, and I know we can negotiate better than what we have. My perspective is based on what meets the needs of my family and me, not union politics. And when and if a TA comes out, that's how I'll base my vote. If it's good I'll be content, if not I'll reconsider my options. So don't drag me into your fight.

It's not "my fight", it is OUR fight..... however I see that you don't really understand how patern bargaining works....

We are profitable because of the flying we are doing... if we don't have that flying, we aren't profitable.....

You are the one who brought "worth" into this debate..... please tell me how we are valued and how the "worth" is established? I understand that you want more, as do I.... however I am interested in how you value "worth"?

Have you applied to Delta, NWA, CAL, or United? If so, do they pay an international widebody pilot what you think they are worth? Just curious....

You sure are responding a lot for having put me on your ignore list :>)

 

[Speedtape]

Joe,

Are you going to the LEC meeting?

 

[VeeOne]

Let it. If it comes down to it I'll leave to work where I'm paid what I'm worth. I've got principle and the spine to back it up. Read my posts. I know very well JA can liquidate us to get us out of his hair. If he does that so be it, but I've got enough pride not to become another Mesa.

Regional pilots will NEVER be paid what they are worth. Even if the entire regional industry managed to up the ante in a single move, somebody would start another regional to provide regional flying services that a major wants for the cost they want it. They have even started their own regionals to do this (Mid Atlantic and Compass). There is no single way to win this game. We offer a service that is for purchase by the legacies. If they don't want it at the cost it is provided for, they shop for it somewhere else. Why do people not understand this simple concept???

Spine has nothing to do with this. It's very simple economics and it is about money. Not everybody is going to have an easy time and land the miracle job once 1700 pilots hit the street. No matter how much time you have- there will be someone above you on the competative list.

I have many years invested here at ASA, and a lot of sweat too- I'm not that interested in throwing it away, so a crappier airline can perform the flying we once did for LESS. That is the reality here- and that is what will happen. Those that will benafit from our loss will only muddy the waters with their sub par work rules.

In short- what we have on the table now is about all we will get, it is all that we can JUSTIFY that we are worth, and this should be looked at by ALL the pilots here for a vote. It's time to let the pilot group speak- put this proposal out to vote!!!!!!

 

[Rez O. Lewshun]

At the regional level, it is because they only care about getting PIC time so they can make it to the "big leagues".... The 250 hour wonder kid doesn't understand the issues, and doesn't care... in fact, he isn't going to stick his nose in our argument because he just wants to keep his nose clean....

It is what it is...

It is a waste of time Rez.... as is an LEC meeting.... I believe it is ALPA that is hampering a single list at Skywest Inc. as it was during the ASA/CMR/DAL PID..... ALPA is protecting ALPA, not me.... I am done working within the system... the system is broken...

An LEC meeting is the democratic venue to address ones issues....

The system isn't broken... you just don't know how to function in the system...

or

Fix the system......

Fins discussed changing the organizational structure... fair enough... but if we are going to do that then I think we should spend that energy on the 250hr pilot you discussed above...

The resolution is irrelevant if it doesn't threaten ALPA.... the local ALPA reps. don't want to pi$$ off ALPA because they don't want to lose the 1.5 million a year in full time ALPA leave... the system is corrupt and is designed to protect ALPA, not the ASA pilots.....

There you go again with threats and lawsuits.. How about the ol' honey/vinegar cliche...

I'm not running for ALPA office, and I am not politicing. I am protecting my job, and I don't give a d@mn about ALPA.... that is your problem, not mine...

Politics is the engine of unions. If you refuse to particapte in politics you will be bitter, angry and ready to sue....

 

[Rez O. Lewshun]

It doesn't "control" it, rather it deals with it.... How does the ABA, and AMA deal with capitalism? Maybe some transportability of seniority and some barriers to entry Rez.... what do ya think.... they do it... why can't we?

Because we aren't doctors and lawyers. We are tradesmen. Blue collar labor. It's like you realized one day that you are a serf and not a landowner. It is just the way it is....

But we can effect positive change if we don't operate with anger, bitterness and lawsuits...

Prater is testifying about the low experience level of entry level 121 pilots, and how it is a concern... do you support ALPA in questioning the experience level of 121 pilots?

Valid point. I thought of that... he was also questioning the system and market which allows 250 hour pilots..

No they aren't Rez.... and I am doing something about it.... you don't agree, but that isn't my concern.......

Joe you are like a Jetstream 31.... pissing off everyone, 19 people at a time...

 

[Speedtape]

Joe,

Are you going to the LEC meeting?

Are you going to the LEC meeting?