ASA Converts CRJ200's to CRJ700's

[Oakum_Boy]

I just don't think its appropriate for them to give the Comair pilots grief for taking a pay freeze when every day they don't negotiate is another day for the ASA pay freeze. Only ASA's pay freeze is much much lower than Comair's.

When did ASA stop negotiating? I'm beginning to wonder if we have quit. Maybe you aren't far off.

 

[FDJ2]

Not jibberish.

Total jibberish and you know it. I suppose we didn't want our DB plan, or that extra 32.5% pay, lines of time, no medical premiums etc. Your twisted.

 

[~~~^~~~]

That was just mean.

Huh? This is my plan if Crew Scheduling keeps extending me.

 

[~~~^~~~]

I just don't think its appropriate for them to give the Comair pilots grief for taking a pay freeze when every day they don't negotiate is another day for the ASA pay freeze. Only ASA's pay freeze is much much lower than Comair's.

Huh? The ASA pilots refused the RFP "opportunity" to freeze our contract by extending the amenable date. Where you getting this crap from? Mike Pinho been hanging out in CVG or something?

 

[bvt1151]

When exactly is the amendable date?

 

[Sinca3]

If my memory serves me right, Comair took 3+ years to negotiate their "industry leading" contract. So why all the sudden is it that ASA is or has taken concessions b/c our negotiations are taking so long?
I think everyone hear needs to take a week or two off from these boards and just live. Quit blaming each other and dragging each other down.
If you don't like the direction of your airline voice it to your management and to your union and get something done. Get involved with your union to get something done. Just quit coming on here and blaming each other because you are scared of the path your career is taking.
Cheers

 

[bvt1151]

Perhaps its time to go back and read the posts.

I don't blame the ASA pilots for the way they're handling things the way they are at all. I just find it inappropriate for them to complain about Comair's pay freeze when they're inadvertantly doing the same thing. Do what's right for your pilot group and quit blaming another group for your problems.

 

[wms]

Perhaps its time to go back and read the posts.

I don't blame the ASA pilots for the way they're handling things the way they are at all. I just find it inappropriate for them to complain about Comair's pay freeze when they're inadvertantly doing the same thing. Do what's right for your pilot group and quit blaming another group for your problems.

We are not "taking" a pay freeze. We are having a pay freeze imposed upon us by stalling from mgmt that we haven't been able to break. CA volunteered to take a pay freeze to get airplanes they would've gotten anyway.

Those Indy planes were always going to CA. With as many as 15 pilots per month leaving ASA we don't have the crews to staff the planes we have, much less the RFP airplanes plus 10 Indy planes.

DAL (their law team has been dispatched to advise all of this and the ASA negotiations) cleverly did two things. They duped the CA pilots into thinking their freeze is paying off with 10 planes they were going to get anyway, and they intensified the whipsaw by making ASA employees (not just pilots) think CA stole airplanes that ASA wasn't going to to begin with.

 

[bvt1151]

The end result is still the same. This is my point. Every day the ASA pilots do not reach an agreement with managment is a concession of pay.

The only real difference is that the Comair pilots took a pay freeze at the top of industry pay while ASA is taking one at the bottom. Comair voted theirs in and ASA doesn't have the negotiating power to force their hand, but the end result is the exact same thing.
I'm not advocating either decision, I just won't sit back while one group (ASA) blames the other (CMR) for doing the same thing they've been doing for years.

Comair pilots will do what's best for Comair pilots and ASA pilots will do what's best for ASA pilots. Quit pointing fingers.

 

[Sinca3]

bvt1151:
I'm not going to get into a bitching match with you but you are either very narrow minded or just plain dumb. This quote is what I am talking about:
"The end result is still the same. This is my point. Every day the ASA pilots do not reach an agreement with managment is a concession of pay."
The concession of pay you say we are taking is not by our choice. The concession Comair took for growth was by choice.
As for being at the bottom of pay rates check them out again. Remember those are 7 year old pay rates and they are far from the bottom!!

 

[bvt1151]

Sinca,
Have you even read the thread to understand where this discussion started, or are you just content jumping in at the end and calling it "a bitching match"? I'll post the quote that started all of this:

And just remember - ASA took no concessions for growth.

ASA is continually taking concessions. They voted the extension down, but that is all a moot point if they can't force management's hand before the proposed and extended amendable date. The end result is no different, except that it gives some pilots the jaded sense that they held the line. You will have done no such thing until you force management to sign a new contract. I'm not bashing ASA pilots one bit for not forcing their hand. In fact I don't think its the right time to be negotiating contracts anyways, but you need to be careful when you bash Comair by saying that ASA took no concessions for growth.

You were assigned aircraft over Comair because you were so much cheaper to operate. Your pilot contract (or lack of one) is the leading reason why that happened. So call it what you will, but you did not refuse those aircraft because they were based on a contract that you were actively trying to renegotiate. Rather, you accepted the aircraft while conceding the opportunity to force management to negotiate a new contract. To rephrase that sentence, ASA gave concessions for growth. If it makes you feel better that you did not vote for the extension, fine, but in the end, there is no difference whether or not you voted for the extension or not. If you're not willing to use your capital to force a contract before the proposed extension date, there is absolutely no difference than if you had voted it in.

"Congratulations on your no-prize, didn't-win-nothin victory." (Sprite Commercial)

 

[AV8700]

Sinca,
Have you even read the thread to understand where this discussion started, or are you just content jumping in at the end and calling it "a bitching match"? I'll post the quote that started all of this:



ASA is continually taking concessions. They voted the extension down, but that is all a moot point if they can't force management's hand before the proposed and extended amendable date. The end result is no different, except that it gives some pilots the jaded sense that they held the line. You will have done no such thing until you force management to sign a new contract. I'm not bashing ASA pilots one bit for not forcing their hand. In fact I don't think its the right time to be negotiating contracts anyways, but you need to be careful when you bash Comair by saying that ASA took no concessions for growth.

You were assigned aircraft over Comair because you were so much cheaper to operate. Your pilot contract (or lack of one) is the leading reason why that happened. So call it what you will, but you did not refuse those aircraft because they were based on a contract that you were actively trying to renegotiate. Rather, you accepted the aircraft while conceding the opportunity to force management to negotiate a new contract. To rephrase that sentence, ASA gave concessions for growth. If it makes you feel better that you did not vote for the extension, fine, but in the end, there is no difference whether or not you voted for the extension or not. If you're not willing to use your capital to force a contract before the proposed extension date, there is absolutely no difference than if you had voted it in.

"Congratulations on your no-prize, didn't-win-nothin victory." (Sprite Commercial)

You conceded your pay raises for the hope of getting more aircraft. ASA is in negotiations, nothing has been conceded. Totally different, but if this is something you need to justify your poor decision than have at it.

 

[bvt1151]

Please read the beginning of the thread. Pay particular attention to each of the posts where I say I would do the exact same thing if I were an ASA or Comair pilot.


This is about hypocritical statements, not justifying a decision.

 

[Mmmmmm Burritos]

bvt, you're a moron. It's management's fault this is taking so long, not the pilots. We are trying to negotiate a good contract but they are trying to have us keep the old one and are feeding us lines like "zero net gain". Besides, we'll get 100% back pay like ExpressJet did. Then where's your argument? I think someone has an inferiority complex now that everybody's poking fun at Comair. My favorite is somebody calling in time to Comair "concessions" on the "exceptions" frequency in CVG. That's classic.

 

[DrunkIrishman]

bvt-

Do you have access to Aviation Daily? If you do, then I recommend you look at regional jet operators costs. It will show you that Comair has the least expensive CRJ-200 (which is what the RFP was up for) overall operationg cost. Yes, Comair is even cheaper than ASA!

If you don't have access, like those of us at ASA do through MyASA, then I will tell you that Comair operates the 200 for about $93,000/month/airplane or so versus ASA's $97,000 and change. You tell me, did Comair need to get concessions to have a lower cost, or could this have been a better operational fit?

Let's face it, FB wanted to show Delta that he could control his group. Getting the flightcrews and mechanics to concede is a strong showing of his control. Obviously this is only my opinion. Nonetheless, the facts show CMR is the least expensive.

 

[ekuflyer]

Sinca,
ASA is continually taking concessions. They voted the extension down, but that is all a moot point if they can't force management's hand before the proposed and extended amendable date. The end result is no different, except that it gives some pilots the jaded sense that they held the line. You will have done no such thing until you force management to sign a new contract. I'm not bashing ASA pilots one bit for not forcing their hand. In fact I don't think its the right time to be negotiating contracts anyways, but you need to be careful when you bash Comair by saying that ASA took no concessions for growth.

You were assigned aircraft over Comair because you were so much cheaper to operate. Your pilot contract (or lack of one) is the leading reason why that happened. So call it what you will, but you did not refuse those aircraft because they were based on a contract that you were actively trying to renegotiate. Rather, you accepted the aircraft while conceding the opportunity to force management to negotiate a new contract. To rephrase that sentence, ASA gave concessions for growth. If it makes you feel better that you did not vote for the extension, fine, but in the end, there is no difference whether or not you voted for the extension or not. If you're not willing to use your capital to force a contract before the proposed extension date, there is absolutely no difference than if you had voted it in.

"Congratulations on your no-prize, didn't-win-nothin victory." (Sprite Commercial)

See the difference is genius. That at the end of our long negotiations we will get back pay to the amendable date therefore it’s not a concession, like you folks volunteered to take. You guys just keep doing whatever is best for you.

 

[wms]

From BVT:

"ASA is continually taking concessions. They voted the extension down, but that is all a moot point if they can't force management's hand before the proposed and extended amendable date."

Now that's hypocritical. CA did not force mgmt's hand before their amendable date. The fact is by using your own logic, you let CA mgmt freeze your pay for THREE years. Come september if we don't have a contract, which we won't, you can blast us for being strung along longer than you. Meanwhile, accept the fact that you let mgmt sucker you into a freeze to get 10 airplanes you were going to get all along.

The fact that we're here arguing over it proves my point that one of mgmt's objectives was to use this as a whipsaw.

 

[bvt1151]

\You guys just keep doing whatever is best for you.

Exactly.

...and don't judge the Comair pilots for doing just that. That's all I'm asking.

 

[ekuflyer]

Exactly.

...and don't judge the Comair pilots for doing just that. That's all I'm asking.

No I think you are judging everyone else. Comair, you must admit, undercut our bargaining with your concessions.

 

[bvt1151]

No I think you are judging everyone else.

You are incorrect.

Perhaps you missed these posts:

I don't blame the ASA pilots for the way they're handling things the way they are at all. I just find it inappropriate for them to complain about Comair's pay freeze when they're inadvertantly doing the same thing. Do what's right for your pilot group and quit blaming another group for your problems...

...Comair pilots will do what's best for Comair pilots and ASA pilots will do what's best for ASA pilots. Quit pointing fingers...

...I'm not bashing ASA pilots one bit for not forcing their hand. In fact I don't think its the right time to be negotiating contracts anyways, but you need to be careful when you bash Comair by saying that ASA took no concessions for growth.

 

[letthebigdogeat]

This is like a semi exciting tennis match, only that we the ASA team are playing a freaking wall. Maybe 10 more posts and bvt will actually get it.

 

[vc10]

Delta could have given those aircraft to Skywest.

Those Indy planes were always going to CA. With as many as 15 pilots per month leaving ASA we don't have the crews to staff the planes we have, much less the RFP airplanes plus 10 Indy planes.

 

[bvt1151]

This is like a semi exciting tennis match, only that we the ASA team are playing a freaking wall. Maybe 10 more posts and bvt will actually get it.

Or a slow motion train wreck.

You guys are arguing a point in which the contrary was never made. Arguing just for the sake of arguing, I suppose. Its about time for this thread to die.

 

[MetroSheriff]

Or a slow motion train wreck.

You guys are arguing a point in which the contrary was never made. Arguing just for the sake of arguing, I suppose. Its about time for this thread to die.

WTF?!?!?!

I think BVT is on 'shrooms. He is not even really making sense anymore.

 

[ifly4food]

BVT, either you're posting on crack, or you really are an idiot.

The ASA pilots have no power to refuse airplanes that the company has assigned us to fly. This is illegal under the RLA (That's Railway Labor Act for you Comair new hires). We also have no power to "force" management to sign a contract. Such would also be illegal. All we can do is continue to negotiate in good faith and hope that the NMB gives us a release to strike this Fall. Keep in mind that you at Comair negotiated pre 9/11 in a very different environment. You've got a lot of balls to come on here and accuse the ASA pilots of taking some sort of concession by not "forcing" management to sign and honor a contract.

Now, bvt, I think it's time for you to slime your way back to your cave, or the rock you crawled out from under. You've trolled enough for now.

 

[bvt1151]

Oh how I missed the maturity level of these boards...

 

[79%N1]

Heres the worst part of this for ASA pilots......

We strike in the fall. USAIR tanks. Delta replaces ASA with all the Mesa airplanes available from USAIR!!

DONT THINK DELTA DIDNT THINK OF THIS!!!

ASA PILOTS ARE SCREWED BY THIS MOVE!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

 

[letthebigdogeat]

So let it be! At least I will have some dignity left. I think the time has unfortunately finally arrived to start looking for a different field of employment.

 

[ifly4food]

Oh how I missed the maturity level of these boards...

Or the maturity level of some members.

Care to tell us how long you've been in this industry and why you think you know so much more than us about negotiating contracts?

 

[79%N1]

So let it be! At least I will have some dignity left. I think the time has unfortunately finally arrived to start looking for a different field of employment.

Hey, I'm with you. Ive been here 3 years and was looking at AT LEAST 2 years to the left seat.......now, it will probably more like 5 more years. Best case, all future DCI growth will go to MESA. They are a weed, and JO is aggressive and a weasle! Of course, worst case is what I said before, MESA replaces ASA. At any rate, our chances of getting a decent contract is all but down the drain! Go look at MESA's current contract, and somebody explain to me how we can expect to do any better now???? No way on earth!

I love my job, and I love flting airplanes ----- BUT I HATE THE AIRLINE INDUSTRY!

It may be time to do something else, and let some MESA dude sit in the right seat of a jet for 8 years making $35,000/year!