ASA Connection.....(Or should I say "Concession?")

[crj567]

What if those Delta Connection 50 seat airplanes have a home with another Legacy Carrier? We are gaining ground here, so much information is not privy to us at the frontlines. BH all but said at the town hall meetings we have homes for all the 50 seats we are "loosing" (had to do that to keep FI real). Perhaps there is more out there we are not aware of. In the SkyW Inc. 4th Qtr. earning report, Brad Rich, CFO said they had found homes for 7 of our 20 and were very optomistic about finding homes for the other 13. Additionally, what if they found homes for another 25-30, all the while getting 19-20 90 seat aircraft? I'm very impressed that at the town hall meetings, pay cuts or any other type of concession wasn't even talked about. Not even casually.

Trojan

Now that is what I'm hoping for!

All my "venom" and nastiness has a central point-DAL is gone, at least the old version of the company. The NWA scum mgmt. that totally runs things now is completely different from what we used to deal with.

I would love to see SKYW get as many planes out from under the thumb of these bastards as possible. Our outstations are a good example of the way they play the game-a lot of very good people used to work at many of these outstations and the are gone without so much as a "don't let the door hit you in the ass." (some of these guys had worked for AS for 25 yrs or so.) DAL is not the same place-people will take a while to integrate just how freaking adversarial and nasty they have become, but with people like Steenland and RA running things, everyone at the company and every contractor for DAL is in for some serious unpleasantness.

SKYW signed that contract with a very different company-they probably made some assumptions which are no longer valid, and the new DAL is not gonna be the kind of place any quality feed airline will wish to do business with.

 

[79%N1]

What if those Delta Connection 50 seat airplanes have a home with another Legacy Carrier? We are gaining ground here, so much information is not privy to us at the frontlines. BH all but said at the town hall meetings we have homes for all the 50 seats we are "loosing" (had to do that to keep FI real). Perhaps there is more out there we are not aware of. In the SkyW Inc. 4th Qtr. earning report, Brad Rich, CFO said they had found homes for 7 of our 20 and were very optomistic about finding homes for the other 13. Additionally, what if they found homes for another 25-30, all the while getting 19-20 90 seat aircraft? I'm very impressed that at the town hall meetings, pay cuts or any other type of concession wasn't even talked about. Not even casually.

Trojan

Troj.........

I'm all for that, man. I'm hoping for that best case scenario just like the rest of us. But, what Legacy is looking to add 50 seat RJ's to their fleets? It seems everyone is trying to reduce these types from their fleets. But, we'll see.

As far as the earnings reports, when they said they found homes (which they later said fell through) for 7 200's, my understanding was that by homes, they meant someone agreed to buy them from SKYW, not that they would be operated and flown by ASA crews. SH also said in a recent RGT class that a potential deal to fly 10+ for United in IAD is dead, also.

Not trying to be a downer, and I'm hoping they pull something off. I'm just saying another 2 for 1 swap would be devastating for ASA crews, since we haven't even lost the first 20 yet. (Therefor not adjusting our staffing needs yet).

 

[seniorgolfer]

Truth hurts.

The days of guaranteed profit are over, which is what allowed your compensation to come up in the first place. It's happening. Bet on it.

OR

just :bawling: :bawling: :bawling:

Cost plus margin plus incentive--incentive is not guaranteed, and is based on performance metrics. Most costs are pass thru (they have to be since Delta gets the revenue from seat sales, etc.), and there must be a built in "margin", or the contract carrier model would not be viable.

Delta is using the "portfolio" to squeeze contract rates, but the aircrew pay scales are pretty comparible for the DCI carriers--biggest difference is the seniority of some of the pilot groups. To gain perspective, lets say annual pilot payroll for a carrier like ASA is 120M. Even a 10% across the board cut is 12M annually. Delta posted a 760M loss in 1Q 09...

I'd be more concerned about Mother Delta staying in business--unless she makes a "profit", all our gooses are cooked (mainline and DCI).

 

[crj567]

Cost plus margin plus incentive--incentive is not guaranteed, and is based on performance metrics. Most costs are pass thru (they have to be since Delta gets the revenue from seat sales, etc.), and there must be a built in "margin", or the contract carrier model would not be viable.

Delta is using the "portfolio" to squeeze contract rates, but the aircrew pay scales are pretty comparible for the DCI carriers--biggest difference is the seniority of some of the pilot groups. To gain perspective, lets say annual pilot payroll for a carrier like ASA is 120M. Even a 10% across the board cut is 12M annually. Delta posted a 760M loss in 1Q 09...

I'd be more concerned about Mother Delta staying in business--unless she makes a "profit", all our gooses are cooked (mainline and DCI).

-I have been singing that song for a while, and all I get is "what part of the interview did you fail." And stuff like "you better not bite the hand that feeds you."

-It is clear DAL is making stupid decisions, and that better change-for everyone's sakes.

 

[1080P]

In regard to the 50's they have mentioned in RGT that if we can't find another home for them then we might do our own flying with them and and sell DAL the seats like we used to do. That's the last straw but as SH said even if we can break even it's better than money going out the door to the bank.

 

[ifrcfi]

ASA just took delivery of one 900 from 9E. This pain will go around and around, not just at EV.

Trojan

I'm not sure you are correct on this. 9E paid for or fronted the money for the leases on the 900's they operate for Delta. ie they own the airframes. You can check on line or go look at the registration. That contract was not done the traditonal Delta purchase with a lease back to whatever DCI carrier. Maybe you meant a different regional carrier?

 

[79%N1]

The ones from PQ were 900's they were temporarily operating from Freedom. They then are jumping to ASA.

 

[Speedtape]

I'd be more concerned about Mother Delta staying in business--unless she makes a "profit", all our gooses are cooked (mainline and DCI).

For the 1st quarter, Delta reported a rather large loss. However, to get a true perspective, one has to look closer at the computations of that loss.

There were two large charges that occurred against earnings that should be non-reoccurring. The largest charge was for bad fuel hedging contracts that were negotiated shortly before the bubble burst. The other large charge was for associated merger costs.

Put those two charges aside, and Delta had a rather small loss. Delta is still projected to make a profit for the year, given that there are no other National emergencies that happen. In fact, they probably will make the largest profit of any airline.

Having said that, the squeezing on the DCI carriers will not stop. The whole idea in having multiple vendors was to force competition. Delta will squeeze until each vendor is bidding at the same costs, so they have the lowest costs possible--standard across the platform. Some of their vendors will not survive longterm. Skywest, INC., will be one of the last ones standing, because of their contracts, and their large cash reserves.

Skywest is in the cost saving mode to insure their competive position remains. They have trimmed costs in most departments. Although there have been some minor campaigns for costs savings in Flight Operations, there is more to be gained.

According to two Reps and 2 of our Negotiators, PBS is their number one goal. It was something that they did not gain in negotiations that apparently was on the table until the end. PBS was only introduced in negotiations after they purchased us in late 2005 and after the Scheduling section was complete in early 2006. However, it was introduced too late in the game to be "forced" on the agenda by the mediator.

PBS, despite the claims of the D.O., is a tremendous cost savings tool for them and a valuable staffing tool. Essentially, by avoiding conflicts, PBS creates more availabilty for each pilot throughout the month, so collectively across the entire pilot group, creates a tremendous amount of availability. By achieving increased availability, it makes their staffing more "elastic" in meeting the demand of changing staffing requirements dictated by month to month changes by D. Marketing, and more importantly, meeting the increased staffing demands in the high peak, 4 month summer travel season.

When the economy turns around, and should future growth come along that more "permanently" increases our block hours, PBS utilizes that "elasticity" to "stretch" staffing to efficient levels and minimize the need to increase staffing (hiring).

In any given month, PBS can uniformly control the distribution of block hours to each pilot during bidding by setting hour "limits" that each pilot can/or must bid so that the flying is distributed as equally as possible, therefore allowing for more precise Reserve planning to utilize the Reserves and meet only the specific needs of running the airline. This element alone can allow them to keep payroll down. It would mirror what has been experienced over the last several months that some call the "socializing" of lines. In addition, PBS can allow for awarding of more "hard lines," thereby greatly reducing or eliminating "open time" in any month, but especially in months where D. decreases our block hours.

With PBS better managing the distribution of flying to all pilots, it will reduce the payroll costs by insuring that all pilots are utilized efficiently and evenly, including Reserves. By consistently enhancing the better utilization of reserves (flying more and to some targeted goal), PBS creates cost savings by keeping payroll down. This is in contrast to the past, where reserves may have been overstaffed (not often) and underutilized (often). While Reserves were still being paid guarantee, and "line pilots" were paid "extra" money to fly block hours that Reserve pilots could have flown for free since they are already paid guarantee.

Our current system of line bidding, fosters the concept of conflicts. Conflicts create reduced pilot availabity and thus increases inefficiencies. However, line bidding affords benefits to pilots by "gaming" the system and allowing pilots to create "conflicts" that can create more days off during integration, known non-flying assignments and known absences (check rides, RGT, absences, other days off, and most importantly vacation footprints.)

In summary, PBS, is a very efficient staffing tool, and will save alot of money. From a pilot perspective, without proper control and safeguards, it can be a weapon of mass destruction to some of the benefits that we derive from line bidding, today. PBS is concessionary for pilots. However, to some degree that can be minimized if oversight and proper controls are gained in development of the system and selection of the PBS system. Having stated that, there are still some benefits to the pilot group over line bidding.

 

[ifrcfi]

The ones from PQ were 900's they were temporarily operating from Freedom. They then are jumping to ASA.

Understood, so not the original 14 or 16 PQ was operating.

 

[701EV]

Speed, If that is how PBS truly works I would say that is the best explanation I've seen on PBS. Mgmt nor ALPA have explained that well.

Still not sure if I want PBS.

Are you sure your a pilot? (TIC)


701EV

 

[Tarzan]

For the 1st quarter, Delta reported a rather large loss. However, to get a true perspective, one has to look closer at the computations of that loss.

There were two large charges that occurred against earnings that should be non-reoccurring. The largest charge was for bad fuel hedging contracts that were negotiated shortly before the bubble burst. The other large charge was for associated merger costs.

Put those two charges aside, and Delta had a rather small loss. Delta is still projected to make a profit for the year, given that there are no other National emergencies that happen. In fact, they probably will make the largest profit of any airline.

Having said that, the squeezing on the DCI carriers will not stop. The whole idea in having multiple vendors was to force competition. Delta will squeeze until each vendor is bidding at the same costs, so they have the lowest costs possible--standard across the platform. Some of their vendors will not survive longterm. Skywest, INC., will be one of the last ones standing, because of their contracts, and their large cash reserves.

Skywest is in the cost saving mode to insure their competive position remains. They have trimmed costs in most departments. Although there have been some minor campaigns for costs savings in Flight Operations, there is more to be gained.

According to two Reps and 2 of our Negotiators, PBS is their number one goal. It was something that they did not gain in negotiations that apparently was on the table until the end. PBS was only introduced in negotiations after they purchased us in late 2005 and after the Scheduling section was complete in early 2006. However, it was introduced too late in the game to be "forced" on the agenda by the mediator.

PBS, despite the claims of the D.O., is a tremendous cost savings tool for them and a valuable staffing tool. Essentially, by avoiding conflicts, PBS creates more availabilty for each pilot throughout the month, so collectively across the entire pilot group, creates a tremendous amount of availability. By achieving increased availability, it makes their staffing more "elastic" in meeting the demand of changing staffing requirements dictated by month to month changes by D. Marketing, and more importantly, meeting the increased staffing demands in the high peak, 4 month summer travel season.

When the economy turns around, and should future growth come along that more "permanently" increases our block hours, PBS utilizes that "elasticity" to "stretch" staffing to efficient levels and minimize the need to increase staffing (hiring).

In any given month, PBS can uniformly control the distribution of block hours to each pilot during bidding by setting hour "limits" that each pilot can/or must bid so that the flying is distributed as equally as possible, therefore allowing for more precise Reserve planning to utilize the Reserves and meet only the specific needs of running the airline. This element alone can allow them to keep payroll down. It would mirror what has been experienced over the last several months that some call the "socializing" of lines. In addition, PBS can allow for awarding of more "hard lines," thereby greatly reducing or eliminating "open time" in any month, but especially in months where D. decreases our block hours.

With PBS better managing the distribution of flying to all pilots, it will reduce the payroll costs by insuring that all pilots are utilized efficiently and evenly, including Reserves. By consistently enhancing the better utilization of reserves (flying more and to some targeted goal), PBS creates cost savings by keeping payroll down. This is in contrast to the past, where reserves may have been overstaffed (not often) and underutilized (often). While Reserves were still being paid guarantee, and "line pilots" were paid "extra" money to fly block hours that Reserve pilots could have flown for free since they are already paid guarantee.

Our current system of line bidding, fosters the concept of conflicts. Conflicts create reduced pilot availabity and thus increases inefficiencies. However, line bidding affords benefits to pilots by "gaming" the system and allowing pilots to create "conflicts" that can create more days off during integration, known non-flying assignments and known absences (check rides, RGT, absences, other days off, and most importantly vacation footprints.)

In summary, PBS, is a very efficient staffing tool, and will save alot of money. From a pilot perspective, without proper control and safeguards, it can be a weapon of mass destruction to some of the benefits that we derive from line bidding, today. PBS is concessionary for pilots. However, to some degree that can be minimized if oversight and proper controls are gained in development of the system and selection of the PBS system. Having stated that, there are still some benefits to the pilot group over line bidding.

Who are you and what have you done with Speedtape?

 

[701EV]

Tarzan

I was thinking the same thing.

701EV

 

[Browntothebone]

Eat it-ACL-I have never applied, never interviewed at your employer... It is amazing that you think each and every person who ever flew an airplane wants your job-simply amazing.

I enjoy what I do, and I have plenty of reasons for wanting to work where I work-just like our pal Dave does. (Interesting how you continually try and berate me for working where I work, yet Dave is somehow noble and just-choosing to slave away with us "little people.)

-You truly are an embarrasment to all who work, or ever have worked here-you pompus toolshed. One minute you are tooting your "brotherhood" and "all on the same team" horn, in the very next post, you are advocating scoping everyone out.

He's at Delta to be flying widebodies internationally. You hate him publicly, but what to be him privately.

 

[Browntothebone]

Are you actually suggesting regional pilots to take concessions? Do you remember what we make?

If I ever take concessions from the sh** pay I already make, I will leave this "job." I didn't go into flying for the money, but I also didn't take it to make a penny less than what I make now. Fact is us FO's will be here on the right seat a long time with age 65 and no one else moving on. Less than $30-35K as highly trained professional to fly transport aircraft? There are a million other ways to cut costs than impose concessions on the pilot group.You can go f*** yourself.

Highly trained- No
Trained to the minimums of the FAR's- Yes


Your low pay is OK because you LOVE to fly and are NOT in it for the MONEY. Your job is so COOL that you can't believe that they pay you to do it. Most of your senior pilots even PAID the company for the privilege of working there in the first place.

 

[WalterSobchak]

Pilots are funny.

 

[Speedtape]

Speed, If that is how PBS truly works I would say that is the best explanation I've seen on PBS. Mgmt nor ALPA have explained that well.

Still not sure if I want PBS.

Are you sure your a pilot? (TIC)


701EV

Yes, I am a pilot. I am a pilot who loves his job and wants to keep it. Unfortunately, PBS is a necessary evil and based on our competition within DCI, but more importantly within the Skywest, INC., we are at a cost disadvantage because we don't have it. It is a concession for our pilot group, but it may be better than taking pay cuts and losing other benefits. Having stated that, PBS can be a better way of bidding if done right.

I am not an expert on PBS. I have done as much research as I can online, talked to many friends at other airlines that have it, and tried to pick the brains of those who are involved researching it. There are some good resources online to get a general idea of the concepts.

You are right. There has not been much specific information come from either the Company or our Union on the subject matter. I can only assume that neither party wants to show their hand to the other--a necessary position in business.

I would recommend that every pilot try to do his/her own research to at least get your arms around it. I am sure, if it goes forward on our property, that there will be information that will be forthcoming. However, if you can get some education first on the matter, at least you can ask intelligent questions when that day comes. From what I understand, our PBS pilot group has done their homework and is well equiped to protect our interests. We will have to have confidence in those involved.

I have confidence in this MEC. On any major issue over the last few years, they have a good track record of doing their home work and delivering to our pilot group. One example is ASAP. They did their homework, consulted with other airline pilot groups, learned what was needed to have a good program, made protecting pilot participants a number one priority, and held out until the Company would agree to the protections that we needed to make the system work and protect our pilots. It is the best ASAP program in the industry with those protections, and is being used as a model at some other pilot groups that are trying to improve their programs and some that are trying to bring it onboard.

I believe, that when and if PBS is presented to our pilot group, that the same diligence, patience, and knowlege will be demonstrated. If we have to get PBS, it will be well researched and many of the needed controls will be in place. I think it can be a better system than line bidding. However, to some degree it will still be a concession. Given our competitive environment, and the efficiencies that it can deliver for our Company, it may be a necessary dose of medicine we have to take. Like most pilots, if we have to get it, and like our ASAP accomplishments, I want the best system available and with the protections that can make it beneficial to some degree. I believe that is possible and once again, I think that is what will be delivered at some point by our own peers.

Thanks for your time.

 

[701EV]

Hey Brown did you get dropped on you head when you where kid.

You say some of the dumbest things!

So you say the kid sitting next to me who makes $20.00 an hour isn't highly trained. When I asked him what he flew before he came to ASA he stated the F/A-18D.

701EV

 

[ACL65PILOT]

Make sure that when you get PBS you make sure you close a lot of loopholes in your Scheduling section. If not, it will not be fun.

 

[CaribPilot]

Pilots are funny.

This place is nothing but laughs....

 

[crj567]

He's at Delta to be flying widebodies internationally. You hate him publicly, but what to be him privately.

Yep-just as much as I want to be you....

I have always thought it would be cool to wear my ass on my shoulders. It is really tough to pull off, but you make it look so easy-what's your secret?