ASA Communist Club at it Again

[D'Angelo]

Isn't the proposed paycut something that would bring ASA's compensation package more to the low end rather than the middle? Do you realize that crew costs are only about 10% of the total overhead of most airlines? How does Southwest manage to stay profitable with their compensation package? Your vision is fatally flawed. The problem with your line of thinking is that you could turn the profession into an 8 buck an hour job. Where does it stop? What you're recommending is pattern bargaining in reverse. Compensation would steadily fall instead of rise gradually. Everybody just keeps taking paycuts to get the growth. There will always be junior people to benefit from the growth. What about doing something for the senior people that have helped the company get where it is?

According to the article we're reviewed ASA is one of the most profitable airlines with its CURRENT cost structure. There is no apparent threat to the financial viability of the company. Some will say that ASA will lose out on future aircraft if they don't vote for paycuts. However if ASA is more profitable than SkyWest (13 vs 10% operating margin) why would the holding company send an inordinate number of aircraft to a less profitable airline?

If an outlandish payraise is granted then the profitability will start to shrink. Actually it would be smart of the company to just give into all the demands and then shrink the company to keep it profitable. The senior people already benefit. They get a payraise every year based on longevity until they max out which takes many years. Growth is still much better than stagnance. You lose QOL by having stagnance

 

[doh]

D'oosch, you are a tool.

 

[D'Angelo]

D'oosch, you are a tool.

Your just mad because I speak the truth. You want to live like its the glory years of aviation. Sorry the glory years are over. There are a lot more pilots than in the pre-deregulation days. Management is much smarter than the pre-deregulation days. Back then basically the unions were unreasonable and held companies hostage. Well what goes around comes around. Im sorry but the truth really does hurt. The sooner you realize and accept what world we are living in the sooner you will be happy again.

 

[buscap]

Yup...he's a douchbag...a vinegar smellin, summer's eve, nasty smelly fixin ******************************bag.

 

[D'Angelo]

Yup...he's a douchbag...a vinegar smellin, summer's eve, nasty smelly fixin ******************************bag.

go think up a clever ALPO tard slogan and color some more picket signs. The union will fire you if you don't! Also you better grow a mustache. ALPO is making a new policy of a "closed tache shop" Meaning if you dont have a mustache like Duane within a year your all fired. Better get the stache growing.

 

[Dave Benjamin]

If an outlandish payraise is granted then the profitability will start to shrink. Actually it would be smart of the company to just give into all the demands and then shrink the company to keep it profitable. The senior people already benefit. They get a payraise every year based on longevity until they max out which takes many years. Growth is still much better than stagnance. You lose QOL by having stagnance

Sorry I give up. You're either a persistent flamer or intellectually challenged. Noone has proposed an outlandish payraise. The idea of shrinking the company makes no sense. You don't want a senioirity list full of senior people. That drives crew costs way up on average.

And please please quit using "stagnance." It's not a word. You can't just modify the word "stagnant" into an adverb or whatever.

I think it's time I relegate you to the "ignore" list. GL could use the company.

 

[D'Angelo]

Sorry I give up. You're either a persistent flamer or intellectually challenged. Noone has proposed an outlandish payraise. The idea of shrinking the company makes no sense. You don't want a senioirity list full of senior people. That drives crew costs way up on average.

And please please quit using "stagnance." It's not a word. You can't just modify the word "stagnant" into an adverb or whatever.

I think it's time I relegate you to the "ignore" list. GL could use the company.

It is an outlandish raise. ASA is already at the top of the industry on their 700 payscale. A small paycut on the 700 and a raise on the 200 is the ticket to success for all! I mean shrink the company until ASA no longer exists. If they are going to be that demanding its time to show em whos boss

 

[buscap]

Am I the only one who smells vinegar?

 

[D'Angelo]

Am I the only one who smells vinegar?

better hurry on that mustache, it could take a whole year to grow. Remember duane is racist. He only hires those with mustaches.

 

[buscap]

yep.......doooooooche

 

[JoeMerchant]

As a 12 year ALPA member, 11 year ALPA volunteer, and "yes" voter on the last strike vote, I will vote NO if the MEC decides to send out a strike vote. ALPA has failed miserably in holding up the "small jet" payrates, largely due to strategic mistakes and ego-driven ignorance. To ask me to fall on my sword, while mainline pilots are currently undercutting our current 70 seat rates, is criminal.

I don't like it, but we have no one to blame but ourselves and our union.....

 

[JoeMerchant]

people want to upgrade.[/

Pay cuts are not the answer. How long have you been here? Do you honestly believe anything that comes from the G.O.? So when you take a pay cut and then we don't get growth and you don't upgrade what are you left with? A sh!tty contract b/c you thought you could upgrade. Your sir are an idiot.

I can't answer for SuperKooter, but I have been here 12 years. I don't necessarily believe anything from the GO, but I also don't believe anything ALPA tells me. The fact is, if we get what ALPA wants on the 70 seater, we will probably start losing 70 seat flying. Most of you who are complaining about taking paycuts on the 70 will then complain because we are losing flying and shrinking. Maybe you all should start asking what your 2% payroll deduction is doing to protect your flying and hold up your pay while your ALPA President continues to make almost $500,000 per year? Start holding ALPA accountable for their actions.... they work for you.....

 

[JoeMerchant]

I'm told that a 1% increase for CRJ200 and ATR, 10-13% reduction CRJ700. Pathetic! ASA MEC is processing for strike vote authorization from ALPA national as of yesterday.

Hoser
ASA P2P

I agree that it is "pathetic" Hoser, but what is the industry standard for the 70 seater? What do our "competitors" get? What is the new Northwest mainline rate for the 78 seater? Why has your beloved ALPA allowed these rates to deteriorate the level we currently see? Has ALPA failed? Put down the ALPA Kool-aid Hoser, this isn't 1998 and we can't achieve what ALPA wants.

 

[JoeMerchant]

There seems to be a faction of pilots (D'angelo, Ohplease, superkooter, gator81) who want an airline job so badly that they are willing to sacrifice making a living.

If it was just a "faction", then we wouldn't be having this debate. Evidently it is more than a "faction" HoursHore. Most of us we show up tomarrow now won't we?

 

[JoeMerchant]

OP,

It seem as though you have never negotiated for your new car (that you pay for with that 70 rate you now enjoy) let alone a labor contract. They have not reached the end yet. The CNC's position paper is just that, the position then. I see room to make a deal in the end that is fair. You know this is not what the final numbers are going to be. So get alittle real yourself would ya?

It looks as though it has finally hit the wall. The company did move a teenie tiny bit.....whooopdifu@kindoooooooo!!!!! And now this is it....their (company) bottom line. NOT GOOD ENOUGH!!

I appreciate the Union being smart negotiators and not showing their hand until the right time. This is the right time. People forget that the MEC has to appease the government too in this system of negotiating to reach a deal. It is a game that blows, but a game just the same.

Play to win!

Something tells me OP that you really never supported a vote in the first place, you just wanted it to look like you did to give you justification to puss out in the end.

Just a friendly observation.

Good to 50,
Let's discuss your car buying analogy. Let's compare the 70 seat rates to buying a car.

Our current 70 seat rates are higher than most 70 seat rates. The 70 seat rates have been moving backwards since we negotiated our current rates. The Northwest pilots just negotiated rates for the 78 seater that are less than our current 70 seat rates. Doesn't that make this a "seller's market", with us being "buyers"? You can't ignore the "market value" when making an offer.

 

[JoeMerchant]

I love how we see these people saying vote no who have just signed on in the last couple of months. Makes you question their motivation.

ASA pilots, vote your conscience. Vote what you think your career and family, and blood, sweat, and tears are worth. I'm voting no.

Either way, it won't be decided here on Flightinfo... just like the Delta TA.

I didn't just sign on in the last couple of months, and I voted YES during the last negotiations. This time I will be voting NO!

 

[79%N1]

Hoser....with respect and just being thought provoking and devils advocate....

where does being paid 22% more than industry average rates get me? At best, probably as an FO for 6,8 or more years. At worst, downgraded to the 50 (paycut), furloughed, or even out of a job. How do ALPA's proposed rates make us viable with the competion we face? I see so much chest pounding, burn it down, stick it to JA mentality......but on basis of what facts? We are already the highest paid 700 pilots in the industry (save Horizon, different situation) and want considerably more! It doesnt make sense! Believe me, I want $50/hr as a 700 F.O, but I also want a chance to upgrade, which gets me even more money and a chance to get out of this place......or even a job. I was willing to strike over QOL issues such as scheduling, swapping, etc....but I cant support striking over payrates on the 700. How can my picketing slogan be 'I demand 22% more than industry standard!!!' We already have the bar raised there. Lets go for other issues and not kill the goose.

 

[JoeMerchant]

.\ Lets go for other issues and not kill the goose.

I agree. This reminds of the United MEC Chairman Rick Dubinski. He said that they didn't want to "kill the golden goose, but they did want to choke it until it gave out it's last golden egg". Well how well did that work out for the United pilots? Something to think about for all you ALPA flag wavers.

 

[79%N1]

Joe, I agree with some of your view points, but its not necessarily an ALPA thing. Supporting a strike or no paycuts isnt limited to the ALPA crowd only. In fact, I find that most guys I fly with have no clue what ALPA does or says. But, they still support a strike. I wish you would tone that angle down and focus on your views of the issues and NOT the ALPA spin.

 

[JoeMerchant]

Joe, I agree with some of your view points, but its not necessarily an ALPA thing. Supporting a strike or no paycuts isnt limited to the ALPA crowd only. In fact, I find that most guys I fly with have no clue what ALPA does or says. But, they still support a strike. I wish you would tone that angle down and focus on your views of the issues and NOT the ALPA spin.

79% are you saying that most guys "have no clue what ALPA does or says", but do agree that ALPA should shut ASA down? Does that not sound strange to you? Why are people who " don't have a clue what ALPA does or says" giving them the authority to end their job? The fact is ALPA has created a lot of this mess and you are now giving them the authority to end your job.... not smart IMHO.

 

[79%N1]

I guess yes, thats what I'm saying. I ask guys all the time, 'did you see what the union said, or proposed, or asked'......all the time I get NO! But, ask if they should lower their 70 seat pay in line with the rest of our competitors, they jump up and down and say 'NO WAY'! 9 of 10 dont even know the rest of the issues or improvements, they just refuse the idea of a paycut. And I'll guarantee you this, 9.5 out of 10 have NO CLUE what anyone else earns on the 700. Just my observation.

 

[JoeMerchant]

I guess yes, thats what I'm saying. I ask guys all the time, 'did you see what the union said, or proposed, or asked'......all the time I get NO! But, ask if they should lower their 70 seat pay in line with the rest of our competitors, they jump up and down and say 'NO WAY'! 9 of 10 dont even know the rest of the issues or improvements, they just refuse the idea of a paycut. And I'll guarantee you this, 9.5 out of 10 have NO CLUE what anyone else earns on the 700. Just my observation.

I agree, but I think it is silly. I hear many people say "ALPA speaks for me", but then when I ask them who their reps. are, they can't tell me. Why would people give someone who they don't know the authority to speak for them? Forget what your opinion of RJDC, or ALPA, or management is - how can anyone let someone speak for them who the don't even know? As someone who has been involved in ALPA work for 11 years, I caution people about blindly following ALPA.

 

[Tomct]

Alright 79%, I'll bite, WHY is it different for the Horizon guys? They make 13 dollars more an hour than we do. Yes, after them, we are the highest paid. I am with you on the QOL, Sched,etc., but I am not willing to take a paycut on the 700 JUST because they want to scare us, they played this game with us before and we did not blink, I feel the same about this! I am not asking for a HUGE raise, but 5% minimum is a must. This does not even keep up with the cost of living expenses. Hell, according to my CPA, we would need almost 22% JUST to cover cost of living increase! We all know that the 50,s are going away and if we do what the sk pilots did, well we just screwed ourselves and end up with no payraise for 10-12 years. That is BS especially when our company is making so much money. We own 80 or 85% of the flying out of ATL so there is no way that SK can take our flying, right! I am voting YES on the strike ballot, if we ever get one!!!

 

[79%N1]

Well, they are different because they have nobody to compete with for flying to be awarded to them. I included rates for those that we currently are or may be competing with for flying. I AM NOT an advocte to buy flying, dont think that. I just think Horizon has a bit of a different situation. (And the longest upgrade time in the industry)

 

[1x1]

I am not asking for a HUGE raise, but 5% minimum is a must. This does not even keep up with the cost of living expenses. Hell, according to my CPA, we would need almost 22% JUST to cover cost of living increase!

Damn Skippy!

How can the G.O. nobs sleep at night knowing us workers are being destroyed by inflation. These pudknockers need to learn how to make money with their money - the old fashioned way - EARN IT!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!:smash:

 

[JoeMerchant]

Alright 79%, I'll bite, WHY is it different for the Horizon guys? They make 13 dollars more an hour than we do. Yes, after them, we are the highest paid. I am with you on the QOL, Sched,etc., but I am not willing to take a paycut on the 700 JUST because they want to scare us, they played this game with us before and we did not blink, I feel the same about this! I am not asking for a HUGE raise, but 5% minimum is a must. This does not even keep up with the cost of living expenses. Hell, according to my CPA, we would need almost 22% JUST to cover cost of living increase! We all know that the 50,s are going away and if we do what the sk pilots did, well we just screwed ourselves and end up with no payraise for 10-12 years. That is BS especially when our company is making so much money. We own 80 or 85% of the flying out of ATL so there is no way that SK can take our flying, right! I am voting YES on the strike ballot, if we ever get one!!!

Tomct,
1. Horizon has not been affected by the "fee-for-departure" scenario YET. If they do, then their pay will come down also.

2. If cost of living increases determined pilot pay, why have mainline pay and benefits been reduced by almost 70% on an inflation basis over the past 20 years? I'm afraid COLA doesn't affect our ability to negotiate. A national seniority list would have more affect than the cost of living.

 

[D'Angelo]

Now its refreshing to see some new thoughts on here. The reason horizon can get such a good pay rate is they are making THEIR OWN money. They have no mainline mama babying them to make sure they make money. They make it themselves. The problem with relying on a fee for departure is yes its guaranteed but then it goes to the lowest bidder. We at comair invented the fee for departure. Quite frankly I wish it would have never been born. If you can find a way to make your own profit then you are in control of your own destiny. If you have to rely on someone else 100% like a crutch you do not control your own destiny. Its quite simple.

Its time to start thinking of ways to make our own money, then and only then will anyone be able to have control over their wages. Cheers to whoever finds a way to make money with a codeshare while assuming some of the risk. Can it happen with the 50 seater? Highly doubtful. The problem is all regionals have become addicted to the fee for departure. They do not have to think at all. Simply get the flight out and you make money. There is no way to lose money in this proposition. Eliminating the fee for departure is the only way to take back control. Alpo doesnt want you to think outside the box like that though. They just sit there and chant about how much money any given company is making. The problem is they never look at the big picture.

 

[Tomct]

D....SHUT IT!! The grown ups are talking!!

 

[D'Angelo]

Dont worry tomct i know you hate hearing the truth. Just ease into it and youll be ok. Maybe you can take a paycut 1% per year or something

 

[doh]

Now its refreshing to see some new thoughts on here. The reason horizon can get such a good pay rate is they are making THEIR OWN money. They have no mainline mama babying them to make sure they make money. They make it themselves. The problem with relying on a fee for departure is yes its guaranteed but then it goes to the lowest bidder. We at comair invented the fee for departure. Quite frankly I wish it would have never been born. If you can find a way to make your own profit then you are in control of your own destiny. If you have to rely on someone else 100% like a crutch you do not control your own destiny. Its quite simple.

Its time to start thinking of ways to make our own money, then and only then will anyone be able to have control over their wages. Cheers to whoever finds a way to make money with a codeshare while assuming some of the risk. Can it happen with the 50 seater? Highly doubtful. The problem is all regionals have become addicted to the fee for departure. They do not have to think at all. Simply get the flight out and you make money. There is no way to lose money in this proposition. Eliminating the fee for departure is the only way to take back control. Alpo doesnt want you to think outside the box like that though. They just sit there and chant about how much money any given company is making. The problem is they never look at the big picture.

Tomct,
Hang on just a second. D' is on to something here. He actually admits that fee for departure sucks, and that management likes it because it is easier than thinking (working). He only loses it when he tries to turn the blame back on ALPA. There are things ALPA has done that aren't so wise, but this mess is all management's baby. Get back to that D' and you may actually find some common ground.