ASA Communist Club at it Again

[Tomct]

AMEN Sweptback!!

 

["GO AROUND"]

This article needs to be stapled to the strike ballot, or at the very least copied and put in every pilot's v-file. Why should I take concessions for the most profitable company in its class?

I think I saw copies of it in the crew lounge. I agree, it needs to be front and center on the union board if it's not already.

 

[D'Angelo]

upgrade is A PAYRAISE. ALPO doesnt want you to know that though. They thrive on FEAR ANGER AND LIES

 

[D'Angelo]

I smell a paycut and arbitration in all your futures. It will be a beautiful thing really. Kudos to all the no voters.

 

[Dave Benjamin]

upgrade is A PAYRAISE. ALPO doesnt want you to know that though. They thrive on FEAR ANGER AND LIES

Wouldn't upgrade be an ever better payraise if there was no paycut involved? It's not my call to make (or yours for that matter) but I think there needs to be a compelling reason for any pilot group to accept concessions. Obviously if the company is struggling financially, unable to attract investors, and in danger of financial ruin then a pilot would be wise to consider making a sacrifice. Why would you advocate taking an unwarranted concession? If the contracts have been approved by the judge and long term in nature where's the need for concessions? That's the question I'm asking. There may be some very compelling reasons that we're unaware. However it doesn't look too bad on the surface.

 

["GO AROUND"]

D'angelho,

You're such a tool! What is secret about an upgrade being a payraise? And how would ALPA keep anyone from knowing that when every pilot has a copy of the contract with the payrates in it. I know you are that stupid but you can stop showing it in your posts.

It's all a conspiracy right?

What are you gonna do now that your bed buddy Fred is gone? I am sure you will make friends with the new CEO.

 

[D'Angelo]

D'angelho,

You're such a tool! What is secret about an upgrade being a payraise? And how would ALPA keep anyone from knowing that when every pilot has a copy of the contract with the payrates in it. I know you are that stupid but you can stop showing it in your posts.

It's all a conspiracy right?

What are you gonna do now that your bed buddy Fred is gone? I am sure you will make friends with the new CEO.

Fact of the matter is your overpaid compared to the rest of the industry. Horizon is different because they have their OWN PROFITABLE routes. Thats right they dont always have to suck off the mainline nipple for their profits. Until you can say that your driven by the market pure and simple. Profitable today can easily be losing money tomorrow. All it takes is the fee for departure rug to be pulled out from under you and then poof the profits are gone! If you take the small cut or pay freeze you get more growth, more people upgrade and therefore more people get a raise than if you follow alpo into the shredder.

 

[bizicmo]

First off I don't work for asa.

The comment "More growth means more people upgrade and therefore more people get raises."

Wouldn't that mean more first officers that took pay cuts?

 

[D'Angelo]

First off I don't work for asa.

The comment "More growth means more people upgrade and therefore more people get raises."

Wouldn't that mean more first officers that took pay cuts?

Not if they are new hires, they agreed to the payrates on the property and the current FOs agreed to the cuts for growth. Short term paycut = long term payraise.

 

[D'Angelo]

Wouldn't upgrade be an ever better payraise if there was no paycut involved? It's not my call to make (or yours for that matter) but I think there needs to be a compelling reason for any pilot group to accept concessions. Obviously if the company is struggling financially, unable to attract investors, and in danger of financial ruin then a pilot would be wise to consider making a sacrifice. Why would you advocate taking an unwarranted concession? If the contracts have been approved by the judge and long term in nature where's the need for concessions? That's the question I'm asking. There may be some very compelling reasons that we're unaware. However it doesn't look too bad on the surface.

Compelling reason = save your job and more upgrades which is more of a paycut in the long term. Short term paycut for growth = long term payraise for upgrade. Better to have a contract in the middle with people always upgrading than a outlandish contract at the top with no growth and stagnant movement. Just look at horizon. Sure they are well paid but its a paycut for the FOs. It could take well over a decade to upgrade

 

[Dave Benjamin]

D'Angelo,

You still haven't answered my question. Have you identified a need for concessions? What is it about the financial picture that concerns you? From what we can see ASA is quite profitable. Why should employees at a profitable enterprise take a concession? It's quite understandable when there is a financial crisis. Where's the fire?

 

[Dave Benjamin]

Profitable today can easily be losing money tomorrow. All it takes is the fee for departure rug to be pulled out from under you and then poof the profits are gone!

And a giant meteor could wipe out the earth. What's your point? The bankruptcy judge and DAL managment chose to stay with the fee for departure model. And if it did change for some reason why not deal with adjustments at that point?

 

[737 Pylt]

And a giant meteor could wipe out the earth. What's your point? The bankruptcy judge and DAL managment chose to stay with the fee for departure model. And if it did change for some reason why not deal with adjustments at that point?

Dave:
Look at his posts, and look who you're dealing with. He likes to argue just for the sake of arguing. Even though its negative attention, its still attention...
He doesn't need to worry about money, he's 24 and lives in his mom and dad's basement!
737

 

[D'Angelo]

And a giant meteor could wipe out the earth. What's your point? The bankruptcy judge and DAL managment chose to stay with the fee for departure model. And if it did change for some reason why not deal with adjustments at that point?

It's better to have a vision for the future with a contract that meets in the middle. Id rather have a contract in the middle with solid growth than a top of the line contract with no growth. Growth always equals a payraise and better QOL. No growth equals being stagnant and no better QOL than what you currently have. Great for the folks in the top of the company, lousy for everyone else. The fee for departure model is safe for now but it will be gone sometime in the next decade or two. If you get a contract in the middle now your better equipped to deal with the challenges of the future. If the legacy unions had been more reasonable they wouldnt be taking such huge retirement and pay cuts.

 

[Tomct]

uke:Man D, you think that you would get tired of hearing your own voice, but if no one is listening, I guess YOU are all that you have GOT!! IDIOT!

 

[Stifler's Mom]

D'Angelo,

You still haven't answered my question. Have you identified a need for concessions? What is it about the financial picture that concerns you? From what we can see ASA is quite profitable. Why should employees at a profitable enterprise take a concession? It's quite understandable when there is a financial crisis. Where's the fire?

Nice.......Duh Angelo skipped by this question yet a second time, and responded to a later post of yours. He's got no valid answer to your questions.

 

[doh]

That proposal is a joke. Anyone who has been here longer than 2 days knows the company is full of sh!t about paycuts, growth, etc. SuperKooter just b/c you pleasure the company orally doesn't mean your going to get a management position. I really hope you're not that ignorant.

He is already in management, or he is D'Angelo, Mesaba 2425, etc. They are invading FI at an alarming rate! Why don't you boys go out and get a Private certificate at least, before you start spewing on a pilot message board.

 

[D'Angelo]

Nice.......Duh Angelo skipped by this question yet a second time, and responded to a later post of yours. He's got no valid answer to your questions.

The fire is actually right in front of you Dave B. Your profitable but its clearly known that the flying goes to the airline with the cheapest costs. Getting a top of the mountain impedes that ability. Besides didnt your CEO say he would be shrinking the airline? Thats the problem with ALPO thinking they see at the exact moment that money is being made so they just want as much as they can screw what happens tomorrow. Its time to start seeing ahead and not playing the old school ALPO games.

 

[doh]

Quote:
Originally Posted by bizicmo
First off I don't work for asa.

The comment "More growth means more people upgrade and therefore more people get raises."

Wouldn't that mean more first officers that took pay cuts?


Not if they are new hires, they agreed to the payrates on the property and the current FOs agreed to the cuts for growth. Short term paycut = long term payraise.

So, agreeing to a payrate locks you in? Cool, management agreed to the rate we have at Comair, so you believe they should be held to it! We agree on that then. Maybe, we should start throwing management in jail when they use FEAR ANGER AND LIES to steal our money... because that is where the real campaign of FEAR ANGER AND LIES is coming from. ..l..

 

["GO AROUND"]

D'angelho,

I know you're education and brain are limited but, It's You're, as in you are a tool, not the possesive your, as in your thinking is flawed.

Back to your inept ranting.

 

[~~~^~~~]

I think D'Angelo is a crew scheduler.

 

[COOPERVANE]

Ignore Him

I am soooo happy, because all I see when I read this thread is:

This message is hidden because D'Angelo is on your ignore list

I heartily suggest everyone do the same. It cuts out so much CRAP from this board. And the best part is, when he posts a reply saying that I just don't want to hear the "truth" I won't even SEE it!!

It's a win-win

 

[letthebigdogeat]

YES for me.

Hey LetTheBigDogEat, I guess they were listening Huh? LOL

Any eye, yes for me as well. GO AROUND, this is quite scary, I think I will have to sweep for listening devices...LOL

 

[Dave Benjamin]

It's better to have a vision for the future with a contract that meets in the middle. Id rather have a contract in the middle with solid growth than a top of the line contract with no growth. Growth always equals a payraise and better QOL. No growth equals being stagnant and no better QOL than what you currently have. Great for the folks in the top of the company, lousy for everyone else. The fee for departure model is safe for now but it will be gone sometime in the next decade or two. If you get a contract in the middle now your better equipped to deal with the challenges of the future. If the legacy unions had been more reasonable they wouldnt be taking such huge retirement and pay cuts.

Isn't the proposed paycut something that would bring ASA's compensation package more to the low end rather than the middle? Do you realize that crew costs are only about 10% of the total overhead of most airlines? How does Southwest manage to stay profitable with their compensation package? Your vision is fatally flawed. The problem with your line of thinking is that you could turn the profession into an 8 buck an hour job. Where does it stop? What you're recommending is pattern bargaining in reverse. Compensation would steadily fall instead of rise gradually. Everybody just keeps taking paycuts to get the growth. There will always be junior people to benefit from the growth. What about doing something for the senior people that have helped the company get where it is?

According to the article we're reviewed ASA is one of the most profitable airlines with its CURRENT cost structure. There is no apparent threat to the financial viability of the company. Some will say that ASA will lose out on future aircraft if they don't vote for paycuts. However if ASA is more profitable than SkyWest (13 vs 10% operating margin) why would the holding company send an inordinate number of aircraft to a less profitable airline?

 

["GO AROUND"]

D'angelho is just flawed period. He's stuck in reverse and has his blinders on. A lost cause.

 

[Fly-n-hi]

3/4 of the company would get an increase plus witht he reduction of the payrate on the 70 we would get much more growth.

This is the problem. You have just proven the point that is made on here so often. You're willing to take a paycut in exchange for growth. This is why people call you a whore.

SuperKooter, let me ask you, seriously, what is your goal as an airline pilot? Is it to fly at ASA for the rest of your career? Is it to fly at a major? Do you want to fly RJs or larger aircraft?

If you want to fly at ASA for the rest of your career than I guess the growth is good for you. If you want to fly at a major then the growth at ASA (or XYZ regional) hurts you. Wouldn't you rather see mainline airlines grow?

 

[79%N1]

Partly true, except majors require PIC also before they will hire you. In order to get the PIC, ASA needs some growth so all us 5 year FO's can get to the left seat. It is a fine line to walk, though. I would like to see ASA grow, but at the same time I want to get paid what I am worth, and have other fair QOL issues settled in a new contract. I also don't wish to sellout junior pilots and future pilots and doom them to low pay and crappy work rules in the future. It is funny to hear a lot of guys I fly with put down guys who are hoping for growth, and when I ask how long they were an FO, they say 8 month or a year and a half! They dont have the perspective. One guy even said to me, why do I want more 700's? I can only fly one at a time!?!?!? Huh, what about the rest of us! Anyway, what I really see happening is more of an increase than mgmt offered on the 50, and some smaller decreases than asked for the 700, or a freeze, to put our 700 costs in line with the rest of the industry. (Do I like it, no - I am on the 700) They will achieve this by pitting the 50 Captains and the Senior FO's looking to upgrade against the relatively small number of 700 pilots.

 

[FL990]

people want to upgrade.

you really shouldn't buy into that ploy...

They have decided where the aircraft are going to go regardless of pay. The decreases that they want us to take on the 700 make very little difference in the bottom line of profits. There profit margins at current pay rates are 13.1%...THE HIGHEST IN THE REGIONAL INDUSTRY!!!
That means higher than SKYWEST, MESA, AND CHQ. It is a simple matter of trying to see what we will buy off on. They know that if they threaten us with our livelyhoods, suckers like you will buy off on it.

And just for clarification, you said that 3/4 of the pilot group would be getting a raise...you are very incorrect. There are no pay increases for the life of the contract for any FO in the company. it should also be noted that there are INCRIMENTAL (in other words multiple) pay decreases for ALL (capts and FO's) 70 seat pilots. This contract would only benefit 50 seat capts and by a very very very small margin...it would be virtually unoticable!!

 

[Holy Shiite]

Let me see now, when did superkooter sign on to this message board?
A few days ago? D'hoe has been here since January? These guys are nothing but management pukes. Time to hit the ignore button! HS

 

[John Pennekamp]

I love how we see these people saying vote no who have just signed on in the last couple of months. Makes you question their motivation.

ASA pilots, vote your conscience. Vote what you think your career and family, and blood, sweat, and tears are worth. I'm voting no.

Either way, it won't be decided here on Flightinfo... just like the Delta TA.

Just so there's no confusion... I meant voting no on the contract as is, yes to strike. Sorry