ASA Communist Club at it Again

[HoursHore]

There seems to be a faction of pilots (D'angelo, Ohplease, superkooter, gator81) who want an airline job so badly that they are willing to sacrifice making a living.

 

[~~~^~~~]

Yesterday I would have voted yes on a strike ballot. Today, after seeing the utter madness of some of the things alpa is demanding, they'd better not send it to me. At this point, I will vote no and urge all those young guy's I've been urging to vote yes to vote no now! I'm not willing to walk for this POS demand from alpa.

There is much, much, more than pay at issue. The Company's proposal in Section one bothers me the most:

• No merger protection
• No furlough protection
• No Fragmentation protection - If flying is transferred to another subsidiary, ALPA wants pilot to go with the flying
• No protection from alter ego - the holding company is not bound by the contract

Understand that if we have a powerless Section 1, there is no way to enforce the rest of the contract. If our flying can be transferred to Skywest, or another alter ego, without protections that our pilots go with the flying there is no glue to bind Skywest to our contract.

In Section 3 Management has advised "an agreement will have to be reached without any type of minimum duty day, duty/trip regs." That simply means the Company has no regard for your time and is unwilling to guarantee you pay while they have you at work.

Section 1, Scope is an absolute deal breaker for me. If the Company is not going to commit to us, I see no reason at all why we would want to commit to a contract.

~~~^~~~

 

[goodto50meters]

finally. a look at the top secret proposals from the union. hmm. I seem to remember all the union blowhards saying ALPA couldn't LEGALLY let us see those. BS now, BS then! there they are in black/white/red.

alpa didn't want to let you see them because they're embarrassed of them. 12% increase for capt. 10.5% FO.!! I've known this all along but, I'll ask anyway...ARE YOU F'ING NUTS?!?! Please check yourselves into rehab. The crack and heroine have taken control.

lies, lies and still more lies....our wonderful alpa has been telling us all along the company wants at least 8% reduction in 70 seat capt pay. NOT! Says right there...2.6% then two years later 2.67. just barely 5% total. And with a little "good faith" negotiations, this would be reduced to less of a cut than that. AND OUR 70 PILOTS WOULD STILL BE AT THE TOP OF THE SCALE!!!!

13.5% 70 FO ONLY reduction puts them in line with the rest of the fo's. Sucks but, that affects only about 200 TOPS! out of almost 2000. I can live with that.

there are things in those proposale that would see movement if alpa would "get real" like thier stickers read at one time.

Yesterday I would have voted yes on a strike ballot. Today, after seeing the utter madness of some of the things alpa is demanding, they'd better not send it to me. At this point, I will vote no and urge all those young guy's I've been urging to vote yes to vote no now! I'm not willing to walk for this POS demand from alpa.

get real guy's. I've seen the company come forward on many things (some I never expected they would) since these last sessions. Its alpa's turn to give. Do it..do it now..and lets move on.

OP,

It seem as though you have never negotiated for your new car (that you pay for with that 70 rate you now enjoy) let alone a labor contract. They have not reached the end yet. The CNC's position paper is just that, the position then. I see room to make a deal in the end that is fair. You know this is not what the final numbers are going to be. So get alittle real yourself would ya?

It looks as though it has finally hit the wall. The company did move a teenie tiny bit.....whooopdifu@kindoooooooo!!!!! And now this is it....their (company) bottom line. NOT GOOD ENOUGH!!

I appreciate the Union being smart negotiators and not showing their hand until the right time. This is the right time. People forget that the MEC has to appease the government too in this system of negotiating to reach a deal. It is a game that blows, but a game just the same.

Play to win!

Something tells me OP that you really never supported a vote in the first place, you just wanted it to look like you did to give you justification to puss out in the end.

Just a friendly observation.

 

["GO AROUND"]

What demand? Lay off the crack pipe Oh Please. It's a proposal to negotiate with to meet at some middle ground. But the company isn't negotiating, they are demanding that that is the best they can do..

I Hope someone knows better than to ever let you buy a car or negotiate a price for anything. Cause you are a salesmans wet dream.

Salesman: "5000 over sticker, this is our best offer."

OhPlease: "You got a deal!"

Oh Please to himself: "Haha, I really stuck it to em and I didn't have to negotiate."

All other customers and salesman: "What a dumba$$ everyone else is getting it for sticker or less."

If the company can't even put in CLOA's, they can take a flying leap with their proposal. I'd just as much keep what we got than take that POS. Let alone, Section 1, 18 and 25.

YES for me.

Hey LetTheBigDogEat, I guess they were listening Huh? LOL

 

[Gator81]

There seems to be a faction of pilots (D'angelo, Ohplease, superkooter, gator81) who want an airline job so badly that they are willing to sacrifice making a living.

How is taking a pay-cut but replacing it with other incentives for a larger W-2 sacrificing a living?

 

[Gator81]

I agree with fins...Section 1 needs to be solid. Coming from a year of Humin for the Hindu, its important.

 

["GO AROUND"]

How is taking a pay-cut but replacing it with other incentives for a larger W-2 sacrificing a living?

What other incentives?!?!?!? They aren't offering anything!!!! They are taking, taking, taking with no opportunity to increase my W2. You tell me where?

Growth? So you would sell yourself for growth that might not come? Keep chasing that carrot that they are hanging just out of reach.

I couldn't even keep up with inflation with their proposal. Let alone that we are 3.5 yrs behind the COLA increases.

You fly for ASA?

 

[ReportCanoa]

I'll admit, I was becoming skeptical of the association and thought they may be asking for too much. However, after printing the summary of open issues, and evaluating each section line-for-line, it quickly became clear that management has proposed a concessionary contract here.

If a strike vote is coming, I am ready to vote...

Over.

 

[crjskipper]

go around - your philosophy may have worked when you bought your last chevy impala, but we are not negotiating for a car. But ill try it your way. You walk into a dealership selling the new hot car. The dealer only has 2 of them. The car is selling well and the dealer knows people will buy the car for the sticker. You walk in and offer 8% less than sticker. Is that a better starting point than 2%. Makes no difference.

So alpa knows we cant expect much of an increase on the 200, and our 700 rates may be high. One reason why - other alpa carriers (mesa/chq) fly them for less. ohplease was only commenting that the openning rate on the alpa side is nuts. They are still asking for the old comair rate plus! I am frustrated by this also - all it does is draw things out - its not good negotiating. A good bluff with a crappy hand is still a crappy hand.

We also all know that a strike vote means nothing. It is only a strike vote - they always pass with a large margin - it doesnt mean that we are going to strike.

personnaly - i think the current 700 rate is fair, but should be brought back into line with the 200 rates. 15 year v. 18 and not higher at the top end. the 12-18 year guys would see a small hit, but it wouldnt effect the majority of guys flying the 700.

 

[Axel]

http://www.yofun.net/videos/incredib...g_content.html

Here, fishy, fishy...

 

[Gator81]

What other incentives?!?!?!? They aren't offering anything!!!! They are taking, taking, taking with no opportunity to increase my W2. You tell me where?

Growth? So you would sell yourself for growth that might not come? Keep chasing that carrot that they are hanging just out of reach.

I couldn't even keep up with inflation with their proposal. Let alone that we are 3.5 yrs behind the COLA increases.

You fly for ASA?

I am new to the whole ASA contract negotiations that are going on and have no clue what they are offering or what ASA wants. Going by my original post, I was wondering why ASA doesn't go after getting more of the SkyWest type pay and incentives with a larger W-2?

If you could let me know where I can find more information on what management is offering and what ASA wants I'd be appreciative.

 

["GO AROUND"]

go around - your philosophy may have worked when you bought your last chevy impala, but we are not negotiating for a car. But ill try it your way. You walk into a dealership selling the new hot car. The dealer only has 2 of them. The car is selling well and the dealer knows people will buy the car for the sticker. You walk in and offer 8% less than sticker. Is that a better starting point than 2%. Makes no difference.

So alpa knows we cant expect much of an increase on the 200, and our 700 rates may be high. One reason why - other alpa carriers (mesa/chq) fly them for less. ohplease was only commenting that the openning rate on the alpa side is nuts. They are still asking for the old comair rate plus! I am frustrated by this also - all it does is draw things out - its not good negotiating. A good bluff with a crappy hand is still a crappy hand.

We also all know that a strike vote means nothing. It is only a strike vote - they always pass with a large margin - it doesnt mean that we are going to strike.

personnaly - i think the current 700 rate is fair, but should be brought back into line with the 200 rates. 15 year v. 18 and not higher at the top end. the 12-18 year guys would see a small hit, but it wouldnt effect the majority of guys flying the 700.

I agree with some of what you are saying. But managment is not selling a hot new car. They are selling a POS and telling us that it is a hot new car.

I would have takin a different approach as well. But you and I are not negotiators.

A strike vote shows unity of the pilot group, not nothing.

The 700 payrate will affect a lot more in the coming years when the ratio of 50's to 70's goes inverted. Cause that is conig to happen. 50's will park and be replaced by 70's. Then the majority will be taking that hit you now say is acceptable.

 

[~~~^~~~]

The 700 payrate will affect a lot more in the coming years when the ratio of 50's to 70's goes inverted. Cause that is conig to happen. 50's will park and be replaced by 70's. Then the majority will be taking that hit you now say is acceptable.

... and that is the best case scenario. If you look out the window at what is happening today you see ASA's -700's getting transferred to SkyWest. We must protect ourselves against a fleet reduction in this contract.

Cheap rates do not guarantee growth. Good scope guarantees at least what we have and we can build from a solid foundation.

Go Around - I'm "goin' around" with you

 

[crjskipper]

and please understand im not advocating a pay cut - we still have not been presented with anything other than "our 700 costs are too high." Show me. I do think maybe the top of the 700 scale could be trimmed - but that is a cut so oh well.

We also know that a strike vote is a sticker, no more, no less. It will come back more than 90, but less than 95. Pilots are willing to strike, but many vote to strike, but less will vote no to a ta that brings one about. Did anyone not think these last sections were going to be tough?

get serious is right - alpa and the company. but im sorry - asking for old comair plus is rediculous, even if it is only a starting point. Does anyone at this airline believe that makes sense for the long term. trust me - if we stand united and up with industry leading 700 rates that our senior guys can brag to their wives about it wont be for long as those airplanes get transfered away. sad but true.

 

[777_Jackpot]

Just Kinda Curious?

What are the main differences between what SkyWest has and what ASA managment wants?

 

[DrunkIrishman]

I wanted to point some things out here:

1. Pilots are good at flying airplanes, not negotiating.
2. Often in negotiations, you see first offer high/first offer low. (ie large % raise vs. 70 seat paycut)
3. Our local union is doing what I believe is in the best interest of all ASA pilots. We need to let them negotiate for an equitqable contract without undermining their efforts in public venues like this one.

Having said all of that, I do believe that each of us is entitled to our own opinions. However, sometimes those opinions come in the form of mudraking and name calling. When that is the case, it doesn't do anything positive at all; it only shows that management can divide and conquer.

 

[Smacktard]

13.5% 70 FO ONLY reduction puts them in line with the rest of the fo's. Sucks but, that affects only about 200 TOPS! out of almost 2000. I can live with that.

I'm only going on what you're saying above, I haven't seen the proposal yet. But 70 FOs only make about 10% more than 50 seat FOs. I can understand your desire to throw the 70 seat guys under the bus but what you are doing is throwing yourself under the bus as well. What do you think the mix of aircraft is going to be 2-5 years down the road? The proposed Delta TA opens up the number of 70 seaters we can fly (as well as 76 seaters) to 215 (200 70s and 15 76s). It appears that more and more of our 50 seaters will be replaced with 70s. In the next few years a larger number of our FOs will be 'awarded' pay cuts as they work over to the 70. If the difference between current 70 FO payrates and proposed FO 70 payrates saves this company, we're in a lot more trouble than it appears to be. How about cutting out the christmas cookies, that should more than make up the difference in the proposed 'savings'.

 

[John Pennekamp]

I love how we see these people saying vote no who have just signed on in the last couple of months. Makes you question their motivation.

ASA pilots, vote your conscience. Vote what you think your career and family, and blood, sweat, and tears are worth. I'm voting no.

Either way, it won't be decided here on Flightinfo... just like the Delta TA.

 

["GO AROUND"]

Have they set any more sessions? I havn't heard of any.

 

[goodto50meters]

ohplease was only commenting that the openning rate on the alpa side is nuts. They are still asking for the old comair rate plus! I am frustrated by this also - all it does is draw things out - its not good negotiating. A good bluff with a crappy hand is still a crappy hand.

We also all know that a strike vote means nothing. It is only a strike vote - they always pass with a large margin - it doesnt mean that we are going to strike

The old comair was almost 19% above current rates at the time. Looks like the negotiators on ALPA's side are the only ones actually interested in negotiating as they have moved 10 or so percent when the company has moved only 5 on the 50 captains and zero or negative everywhere else. This is Bullsh!t! I can see why now is the time.

ASA ALPA's hand is not crappy. Comair has not taken the round two concessions because of the flight attendants (thankYou). So by my math the rates are just about right in comparison. Plus the negotiations still have more to go.

But this isnt over yet. You say a Strike Vote doesnt matter, you are wrong. A weak vote will only further embolden management they will get more agressive and we will be closer to a showdown. A big yes vote will help force the cmpany to make reasonable moves. The final result is somewhere in the middle. Vote no and agree with the company. Vote yes and help your negotiators. There is more to this than rates too as Fins has pointed out.

If you think cuts are in order, send Scott Hall your debit card.

 

[JettBoii]

Irrelevant

I think it was in one of the 40 seaters speedcards. There is a cutout of a Brokeback Mountain advertisement but someone replaced the two main character's faces with lebreque (sp) and atkins. Doesn't sound funny now but neither myself or the cpt could not stop laughing; priceless. Whoever did that..strong work!

 

[surplus1]

We also all know that a strike vote means nothing. It is only a strike vote - they always pass with a large margin - it doesnt mean that we are going to strike.

I know it was a different time but the principle remains the same. Back when Comair voted to strike, management believed exactly what you just said. Eighty-nine days and $700 million dollars later, they finally figured out they were wrong.

At the time it was "rich Delta" abosorbing the loss of 700 million dollars in 89 days to save 20 million dollars over 5 years. Do you think SkyWest can afford to lose 700 million? The answer is no.

You won't get what CMR got in those days - times have changed too much. But you don't have to take hog-slop either. Note that bankruptcy has forced us to give up a great deal of it. But, SkyWest isn't bankrupt and you don't have to accept garbage or be put out of business. Make them understand that the cost of a strike is a he!! of lot more than the cost of a fair contract.

SkyWest can afford to pay ASA exactly what they pay their own 50-seat pilots. They can also afford the same work rules or better. Maybae you could make some changes to your 70-seat rates but not much. As someone said, the 50's will be replaced by the 70's in a great many cases. The rate should NOT be the same. Just because the SkyWest pilots were foolish enough to do that doesn't mean you need to be foolish also.

Listen to Fins; he's right. Protect the flying you have not the flying you think you might get. Comair couldn't do that because ALPA wouldn't let us talk to Delta. You're lucky, you got rid of Delta and dealing with SKYW is a different ball game. Protect your flying or you will lose it.

If you don't believe me, just look at what Delta did to Comair. They didn't cut regional block hours, they cut Comair's block hours-- and gave them to Mesa. The addition of Mesa to DCI was NOT the addition of more regional flying at DCI - it was the transfer of Comair flying to Mesa - 30 airplane's worth.

It is absolutely essential that you prevent that from happening to ASA, even if you have to strike to do it! We lost 9,000 block hours because we did not have that protection. We took a pay freeze to get it -- but we lost it again in the bankruptcy. You are not bankrupt -- which means you have a different deck of cards and a much better hand. Use it.

I advise you NOT to repeat that error. If you do they WILL find a way to transfer your flying. In fact they already have one and nothing prevents them from adding another.

Fins is giving you good advice. You absolutely have to bind the holding Company. Even CHQ did that, surely you can too. Let them add as many subsidiaries as they want, but get a single list any way you can. It isn't easy but it is doable. Pay rates are not you biggest problem, job security is. Work rules should be in second place and then pay rates. I'm pretty sure your negotiating team is well aware of that. Support them -- if you don't you'll be cutting your own throats.

Listen to Fins, he's absolutely right about that.

 

[737 Pylt]

...
Cheap rates do not guarantee growth. Good scope guarantees at least what we have and we can build from a solid foundation.

.....And yet you and Dan Ford are trying so desparately to kill it!:uzi:
737

 

[ASApuppy]

Lets not forget that ASA is the most profitable airline in the industry. 13.1% profit margin. Compare that Skywest's 10.1% That's almost 30% more profitable. This confirms the DOT Form 41 data that ASA operating costs are about 18% lower that Skywests on the CRJ-700. And some of you think we need to accept their "we need to be more competitive" line of crap.

Don't fall for the growth trap. Look, since Skywest has bought us, they have taken 5 of our to be delivered 70's and are slated to take all of our SLC 70's. Let me count the score, Skywest = +18 net airplanes, ASA = 0 net airplanes. For those of you at skywest who think your riding a "golden child" parachute, better step back and look at the big picture. Your next. If asset transfer continues, a lawsuit for single carrier is right around the corner. Bet on it! Historically, you will fair worst by not be organized than you will be by being the acquiring entity.

Bottom line, the company needs to figures out that a happy workforce is a more productive workforce. Imagine what are performance numbers would be if we actually tried.

 

[crjskipper]

puupy and surplus - i agree - but im not sure if the 'protect what you have' approach instead of what you may get works any better. JA has one prime directive - make the stock go up. He has lots and lots of 200s and one company - ASA that has a damn good rate. He is buying lots and lots of 700s and has one company that has a damn good rate. And did the CMR strike prove anything - was the strike worth it?
If we end up keeping the 700 rate we have - what keeps him from moving all of the 700s to SW. So by protecting what we have we could end up with nothing to protect.


Maybe its all a big game of chicken and it works out - I just dont think its as easy as protect what you have now because he owns all of it.

Once again - not advocating a pay cut - just think that as long as mainline guys are willing to fly 90 seat a/c for less and other alpa regionals would stab us in the back in a heartbeat weakens the case for burning the place down.

 

[crjskipper]

..... dp

 

[Dave Benjamin]

Seems like I just read an article recently talking about how ASA was one of the most profitable airlines out there. I think they were discussing operating margins and ASA was 13.5 and SkyWest was 10 something. Anyone have a link or a copy? It's not my place to tell someone at a different airline how to vote on a proposal but it seems like people might want to review that article as part of their decision making progress. Kind of hard to imagine voting for concessions if the company is profitable and the contract is locked in with DAL. Maybe I just don't see the big picture though.

 

["GO AROUND"]

ASA's profit margin puts it at head of the regional pack
Fourth-quarter report: Analysts are impressed with the carrier's figures, which some say will grow
By Paul Beebe
The Salt Lake Tribune
Salt Lake Tribune
SkyWest Inc. may have acquired a cash cow when it bought Atlantic Southeast Airlines from Delta Air Lines last September.
ASA, which like SkyWest Airlines flies as Delta Connection for Delta, generated an operating profit margin of 13.1 percent in the fourth quarter - the best financial performance of the seven biggest regional carriers in the United States, according to a U.S. Transportation Department report released Monday.
"It's very good. It's significantly better than the industry average, which in that [segment] seems to be running about 10 percent," said Helane Becker, an airline analyst with Benchmark Co. in New York.
An airline's operating margin measures how profitable its business is before paying taxes. The margin is calculated by dividing operating profits by sales.
ASA's operating profit was $42 million in the final three months of 2005, according to the transportation report. Revenue totaled $320 million.
By contrast, SkyWest Airlines, the St. George-based cousin of Atlanta-based ASA, earned an operating profit of $43 million - just $1 million more. SkyWest's profit was on revenue of $422 million, producing a still-healthy margin of 10.3 percent.
Whether ASA can continue producing strong financial results is uncertain. The company has a poor on-time record that could alienate travelers. Its operating costs are higher than SkyWest Airlines', something CEO Jerry Atkin has pledged to reduce.
"I assume [ASA's] operating margins will come down to that 10 percent [industry average] level. Delta is trying to lower its costs to return to profitability," Becker said.
SkyWest executives were unavailable for comment Monday.
During a speech in Salt Lake City last month, the company's top financial officer, Bradford Rich, joked that it would take a couple of years to determine whether the ASA acquisition justified the attention it has received on Wall Street lately.
Earlier this month, Calyon Securities analyst Ray Neidl predicted SkyWest shares would reach $34 in the next year. On Monday, shares closed at $23.91, down 35 cents.
Mike Boyd, president of the Boyd Group, an Evergreen, Colo.-based airline consulting company, thinks ASA's performance will weaken in the future.
"ASA is a [provider] of service for Delta," Boyd said. "That 13 percent is based on what Delta agreed to pay them, not on what they did on their own. That's probably going to change going forward."
SkyWest bought ASA for $425 million. The deal closed Sept. 7, a week before Delta filed for Chapter 11 bankruptcy protection, raising cash for the nation's third-biggest airline.
Delta is using the money, as well as millions more, to overhaul itself and, it hopes, to emerge from bankruptcy in 2007.
The Transportation Department report underscored the financial problems major airlines like Delta are having. As a group, big airlines produced a $1.3 billion operating loss in the fourth quarter, resulting in a -8.4 percent operating loss margin.
By contrast, regional carriers, including ASA and SkyWest, earned a total of $211 million, producing an 8.7 percent profit margin.
[email protected]





Dave, here is the article.....

 

[Tomct]

:angryfireMy vote is YESSSSSS!!!!! You HEAR THAT Jerry?

John...you better look at the bigger picture, those 70's are coming and there is NO WAY I am taking a pay cut when we are rolling in the cash!! Show some self-respect will ya!!

 

[sweptback]

Dave, here is the article.....

This article needs to be stapled to the strike ballot, or at the very least copied and put in every pilot's v-file. Why should I take concessions for the most profitable company in its class?