ASA closer to a strike

[JoeMerchant]

You do realize that that "huge payraise" is to BRING US UP to industry standard, then add QOL. It is about Skywest 50/70/90 plus QOL. This is why you can't look at numbers in a vacuum. If we only took a 3% raise overall, we'd still be below everyone except Mesa!

On the 50 yes, but not on the 70. Our current 70 rates are higher than everyone except Horizon and CMR. I suspect the CMR rates will not be a factor much longer one way or the other. Horizon is in a different ballgame for now. In fact, our current 70 rates are higher than the recently negotiated mainline 90 seat rates. They are higher than Jetblues 90 seat rates.

 

[JoeMerchant]

5% with profit sharing would still put us about 10% below industry standard!
To achieve industry standard, we'd need about a 10% pay raise. Industry leading would be about 17%.

That's why the numbers the company are putting out are so misleading!

Again, on the 50 you are correct. But you are not correct on the 70 rates. It isn't the 50 rates that are holding up a deal. It is the 70 rates, the retirement section, the instructor section, and PBS. Compromise on those 4 issues and you will probably get a deal if you want one....

 

[John Pennekamp]

On the 50 yes, but not on the 70. Our current 70 rates are higher than everyone except Horizon and CMR. I suspect the CMR rates will not be a factor much longer one way or the other. Horizon is in a different ballgame for now. In fact, our current 70 rates are higher than the recently negotiated mainline 90 seat rates. They are higher than Jetblues 90 seat rates.

True. Good point. But that's only part of our package too. Only about 25% (and decreasing) of our pilots fly the 70.

 

[ohplease!]

You're right. And management hasn't offered us any of them. They even had the nerve to offer us a watered down version of the Skywest bonus plan that would base it on Net pay instead of Gross pay. That is a lot less what Skywest pilots get.

If they offered us word for word what Skywest pilots get, it would be about a 17% cost increase, total package. They are not going to do that, because they've already said the union's numbers at 15% are ridiculous. What they are going to do is knock us back to a 5-10% total increase, settle, then go after the Skywest pilots for a 5-10% cut after the union drive fails.

like I've said before, IMO with the last ASA proposal, if ALPA would use the more outrageous requests as bargaining chips, ALPA could get ASA to move further in the right direction on QOL and rigs. half the distance between 10% & 17% is 13.5% (not 13.5% payrate, 13.5% overall, as you say and I agree).


we are not THAT far from this.

but, if ALPA continues to simply scoff at ASAs proposals and refuse to find middle ground, they're going to lead us down a path we don't really want to and shouldn't have to go.

and again, in the mean time, we will continue to lose planes, routes, bases, QOL, bases (new), upgrades for our junior folks, etc. etc.

 

[John Pennekamp]

Again, on the 50 you are correct. But you are not correct on the 70 rates. It isn't the 50 rates that are holding up a deal. It is the 70 rates, the retirement section, the instructor section, and PBS. Compromise on those 4 issues and you will probably get a deal if you want one....

I can't believe I'm agreeing with you.... but you're 100% correct.

Now having said that, I don't think our pilots are interested in settling on a 70 seat pay cut, screwing of the IPs, and PBS. I know I personally have no interest in the first and last. You may say the MEC failed to effectively instill realistic expectations in our pilots minds, and you'd be right. But where we are now, a majority of our pilots are so whipped up and pissed that they want an industry leading contract. And the MEC is saying they need to do what the majority wants. It is beginning to seem like a graveyard spiral isn't it?

I've said before that I think this company is going to be downsized no matter what we do. I think we should preserve our 70 rate plus COL, get Skywest 50 plus COL, drop the b fund retirement (but go for enhanced 401k) and put the IPs on the skywest system. That I would vote in tomorrow. But the company hasn't even come close to offering it, and yes, the MEC leadership is refusing to recognize that Comair+ is not a good target.

 

[John Pennekamp]

like I've said before, IMO with the last ASA proposal, if ALPA would use the more outrageous requests as bargaining chips, ALPA could get ASA to move further in the right direction on QOL and rigs. half the distance between 10% & 17% is 13.5% (not 13.5% payrate, 13.5% overall, as you say and I agree).


we are not THAT far from this.

but, if ALPA continues to simply scoff at ASAs proposals and refuse to find middle ground, they're going to lead us down a path we don't really want to and shouldn't have to go.

and again, in the mean time, we will continue to lose planes, routes, bases, QOL, bases (new), upgrades for our junior folks, etc. etc.

Agreed. Call or email your rep and let him know. I have.

 

[JoeMerchant]

True. Good point. But that's only part of our package too. Only about 25% (and decreasing) of our pilots fly the 70.

Your right. What good will industry leading 70 seat rates be when we lose our 70s? It affects the instructors the most. Right now most of them get 70 seat pay. As the 70s leave, many of them will bump down to 50 pay, and many will go back to the line.

We seem to be holding the line for 70 seat rates, instructor pay, and retirement. The retirement we are asking for isn't going to happen and it the 70 seat pilots and instructors that are going to suffer the most by us losing the 70s. Maybe we should reconsider our positions on these issues.

 

[ohplease!]

On the 50 yes, but not on the 70. Our current 70 rates are higher than everyone except Horizon and CMR. I suspect the CMR rates will not be a factor much longer one way or the other. Horizon is in a different ballgame for now. In fact, our current 70 rates are higher than the recently negotiated mainline 90 seat rates. They are higher than Jetblues 90 seat rates.

surely you realize that mainline pilots/alpa have NO INTENTION WHATSOEVER of flying a 90 seat plane....right? Please tell me you know that. If not, I'll lose a great deal of respect for you. That rate, IMO, is just ANOTHER slap at us regional 2nd class folks by ALPA National. It's another example of why we regional 2nd class folks should do whatever it takes to get ALPA OUT of our lives and something in place (if we must have something at all) that WILL work with OUR interests at heart. ALPA ONLY WANTS OUR MONEY. ESPECIALLY NOW SINCE ALL THE MAJORS HAVE TAKEN HUGE PAYCUTS!!!!! Duane and his buddies up there have boats/cars/mortgages/ex-wives&girlfriends to pay for.

 

[ohplease!]

Agreed. Call or email your rep and let him know. I have.

as have I, more than once.

 

[JoeMerchant]

I can't believe I'm agreeing with you.... but you're 100% correct.

Now having said that, I don't think our pilots are interested in settling on a 70 seat pay cut, screwing of the IPs, and PBS. I know I personally have no interest in the first and last. You may say the MEC failed to effectively instill realistic expectations in our pilots minds, and you'd be right. But where we are now, a majority of our pilots are so whipped up and pissed that they want an industry leading contract. And the MEC is saying they need to do what the majority wants. It is beginning to seem like a graveyard spiral isn't it?

I've said before that I think this company is going to be downsized no matter what we do. I think we should preserve our 70 rate plus COL, get Skywest 50 plus COL, drop the b fund retirement (but go for enhanced 401k) and put the IPs on the skywest system. That I would vote in tomorrow. But the company hasn't even come close to offering it, and yes, the MEC leadership is refusing to recognize that Comair+ is not a good target.

The end of the world must be upon us - we agree on something.

On the "70 seat paycut, screwing of the IPs, and PBS" we still don't agree. The current offer from management isn't a paycut on the 70. It isn't a raise, but it isn't a paycut either. On the IPs, they are going to get screwed worse as 70s leave. PBS is coming at some point regardless, so we might as well use it to get something else we want.

At least we agree on somethings.

 

[JoeMerchant]

surely you realize that mainline pilots/alpa have NO INTENTION WHATSOEVER of flying a 90 seat plane....right? Please tell me you know that. If not, I'll lose a great deal of respect for you. That rate, IMO, is just ANOTHER slap at us regional 2nd class folks by ALPA National. It's another example of why we regional 2nd class folks should do whatever it takes to get ALPA OUT of our lives and something in place (if we must have something at all) that WILL work with OUR interests at heart. ALPA ONLY WANTS OUR MONEY. ESPECIALLY NOW SINCE ALL THE MAJORS HAVE TAKEN HUGE PAYCUTS!!!!! Duane and his buddies up there have boats/cars/mortgages/ex-wives&girlfriends to pay for.

I agree with everything you said except the part about mainline pilots having no intention whatsoever of flying a 90 seat plane. They are recalling mainline USAir pilots into the E190, which is going to be flown at mainline, for rates lower than our current 70 seat rate. At NWA, they will be recalling mainline pilots to fly 70 and 90 seaters at Compass which will be part of the mainline contract, but a separate certificate.

 

[ohplease!]

I can't believe I'm agreeing with you.... but you're 100% correct.

Now having said that, I don't think our pilots are interested in settling on a 70 seat pay cut, screwing of the IPs, and PBS. I know I personally have no interest in the first and last. You may say the MEC failed to effectively instill realistic expectations in our pilots minds, and you'd be right. But where we are now, a majority of our pilots are so whipped up and pissed that they want an industry leading contract. And the MEC is saying they need to do what the majority wants. It is beginning to seem like a graveyard spiral isn't it?

I've said before that I think this company is going to be downsized no matter what we do. I think we should preserve our 70 rate plus COL, get Skywest 50 plus COL, drop the b fund retirement (but go for enhanced 401k) and put the IPs on the skywest system. That I would vote in tomorrow. But the company hasn't even come close to offering it, and yes, the MEC leadership is refusing to recognize that Comair+ is not a good target.

the last compnay offer did not ask for a 70 pay cut, it was current rate (not enough but, trade off something rediculous for a little more $ and rigs).

PBS is a forgone conclusion, according to almost everyone including the CNC and MEC (trade off something rediculous for some control over what PBS system we get).

I don't want the IPs "screwed" either but, maybe they could be a good bit more efficient in how they run the training dept. SkyW IPs seem to do better financially than ours (quite a bit from what I hear) and I don't see/hear about them dropping over from stress from too much work. We have some really great IPs, I think they can handle the added pressure.

 

[atrdriver]

thats the dumbest, most self serving statement I've heard in a very long time. It ranks right up there with "this is MY airplane, you're just an FO".

If you don't see that then you aren't out flying the line on a daily basis. The pilots are what is keeping this place together. Yes every employee group is valuable, but we are the ones that keep it running as well as it does. I for one am sick of this management "team" treating us like we are the enemy.

 

[atrdriver]

I don't want the IPs "screwed" either but, maybe they could be a good bit more efficient in how they run the training dept. SkyW IPs seem to do better financially than ours (quite a bit from what I hear) and I don't see/hear about them dropping over from stress from too much work. We have some really great IPs, I think they can handle the added pressure.

The inefficencies in the training department have been caused by the company, not by the IPs. It was not their idea to split into training and standards, it was the companies.

 

[ohplease!]

If you don't see that then you aren't out flying the line on a daily basis. The pilots are what is keeping this place together. Yes every employee group is valuable, but we are the ones that keep it running as well as it does. I for one am sick of this management "team" treating us like we are the enemy.

ok, tell ya' what, go out tomorrow (or the day of your choice) and complete a trip without: dispatcher, fueler, catering, cleaning, gate agent, ramp tower, flight coordinator, scheduling, lav service, baggage handlers, tug driver, wing walker, mechanic, ummm I feel like I'm missing someone,,,,,oh yeah, a flight attendant, chief pilot (maybe we could get away with that one), Linda OR Mary Jane,,,,,ummm Probably still not getting someone in there....point is, we don't move an inch or keep ANYTHING together without the rest of them. So stuff that ego right back there where your head is and give the rest of them the credit they DESERVE.

 

[ASApuppy]

I too have called my status rep and we seem to be on the same page. I think what we need to shoot for is that Zoltar package for our open issues. That would be keeping out 70 rates (although we need COLA), a raise on their 50 rates. As for retirement, I'm not in favor of a B-fund. I would rather see a pilot only 401k (so we don't see checks coming back to us for over-contributing) with company match on each check and add a Roth option. This kind of stuff should not have to be in the friggen contract. It should be company policy. Also, performance based incentives do not belong in the contract. And any bonus that is different from my peer at Skywest is wholly unacceptable.

The IP's is big difference from what I can tell. As I understand it, correct me if I'm wrong, but Skywest only has about 30 instructors. Many of them work voluntary overtime. I was told that the top money maker is in the $250k area, but only has about 3 days off each month. We have about 100 IP's. They don't make that much, nor do they work those kind of hours. There are no double sims for an IP at ASA. I can't speak for them as to whether they think thats favorable for them. We have some instructors that are there for the money and some that are there because they enjoy the job. Any IP's here, either side, want to speak up?

However, all this is just pissing in the wind if we can't legally keep the flying. If they want PBS in 18 months, tell them they can have it the day after the master seniority list for Skywest Inc. is created. You have to give them incentive you know.

 

[ohplease!]

The inefficencies in the training department have been caused by the company, not by the IPs. It was not their idea to split into training and standards, it was the companies.

I didn't say who caused the problems, just that they may need to be fixed....I've had plenty of "its their game and ball, I'll just play by their rules" times too. That doesn't make it right or fix the problem.

 

[ohplease!]

I too have called my status rep and we seem to be on the same page. I think what we need to shoot for is that Zoltar package for our open issues. That would be keeping out 70 rates (although we need COLA), a raise on their 50 rates. As for retirement, I'm not in favor of a B-fund. I would rather see a pilot only 401k (so we don't see checks coming back to us for over-contributing) with company match on each check and add a Roth option. This kind of stuff should not have to be in the friggen contract. It should be company policy. Also, performance based incentives do not belong in the contract. And any bonus that is different from my peer at Skywest is wholly unacceptable.

The IP's is big difference from what I can tell. As I understand it, correct me if I'm wrong, but Skywest only has about 30 instructors. Many of them work voluntary overtime. I was told that the top money maker is in the $250k area, but only has about 3 days off each month. We have about 100 IP's. They don't make that much, nor do they work those kind of hours. There are no double sims for an IP at ASA. I can't speak for them as to whether they think thats favorable for them. We have some instructors that are there for the money and some that are there because they enjoy the job. Any IP's here, either side, want to speak up?

However, all this is just pissing in the wind if we can't legally keep the flying. If they want PBS in 18 months, tell them they can have it the day after the master seniority list for Skywest Inc. is created. You have to give them incentive you know.

bravo, pretty well said.

 

[CFIT]

I was told that the top money maker is in the $250k area, but only has about 3 days off each month. We have about 100 IP's. They don't make that much, nor do they work those kind of hours./quote]

Close, a little low. You guys don't have a clue.

 

[737 Pylt]

ok, tell ya' what, go out tomorrow (or the day of your choice) and complete a trip without: dispatcher, fueler, catering, cleaning, gate agent, ramp tower, flight coordinator, scheduling, lav service, baggage handlers, tug driver, wing walker, mechanic, ummm I feel like I'm missing someone,,,,,oh yeah, a flight attendant, chief pilot (maybe we could get away with that one), Linda OR Mary Jane,,,,,ummm Probably still not getting someone in there....point is, we don't move an inch or keep ANYTHING together without the rest of them. So stuff that ego right back there where your head is and give the rest of them the credit they DESERVE.

Spoken like a true "management TOOL!"
I bet your knee pads with managements' name on it is even in your flight kit!