ASA closer to a strike

[JoeMerchant]

You do realize that that "huge payraise" is to BRING US UP to industry standard, then add QOL. It is about Skywest 50/70/90 plus QOL. This is why you can't look at numbers in a vacuum. If we only took a 3% raise overall, we'd still be below everyone except Mesa!

On the 50 yes, but not on the 70. Our current 70 rates are higher than everyone except Horizon and CMR. I suspect the CMR rates will not be a factor much longer one way or the other. Horizon is in a different ballgame for now. In fact, our current 70 rates are higher than the recently negotiated mainline 90 seat rates. They are higher than Jetblues 90 seat rates.

 

[JoeMerchant]

5% with profit sharing would still put us about 10% below industry standard!
To achieve industry standard, we'd need about a 10% pay raise. Industry leading would be about 17%.

That's why the numbers the company are putting out are so misleading!

Again, on the 50 you are correct. But you are not correct on the 70 rates. It isn't the 50 rates that are holding up a deal. It is the 70 rates, the retirement section, the instructor section, and PBS. Compromise on those 4 issues and you will probably get a deal if you want one....

 

[John Pennekamp]

On the 50 yes, but not on the 70. Our current 70 rates are higher than everyone except Horizon and CMR. I suspect the CMR rates will not be a factor much longer one way or the other. Horizon is in a different ballgame for now. In fact, our current 70 rates are higher than the recently negotiated mainline 90 seat rates. They are higher than Jetblues 90 seat rates.

True. Good point. But that's only part of our package too. Only about 25% (and decreasing) of our pilots fly the 70.

 

[ohplease!]

You're right. And management hasn't offered us any of them. They even had the nerve to offer us a watered down version of the Skywest bonus plan that would base it on Net pay instead of Gross pay. That is a lot less what Skywest pilots get.

If they offered us word for word what Skywest pilots get, it would be about a 17% cost increase, total package. They are not going to do that, because they've already said the union's numbers at 15% are ridiculous. What they are going to do is knock us back to a 5-10% total increase, settle, then go after the Skywest pilots for a 5-10% cut after the union drive fails.

like I've said before, IMO with the last ASA proposal, if ALPA would use the more outrageous requests as bargaining chips, ALPA could get ASA to move further in the right direction on QOL and rigs. half the distance between 10% & 17% is 13.5% (not 13.5% payrate, 13.5% overall, as you say and I agree).


we are not THAT far from this.

but, if ALPA continues to simply scoff at ASAs proposals and refuse to find middle ground, they're going to lead us down a path we don't really want to and shouldn't have to go.

and again, in the mean time, we will continue to lose planes, routes, bases, QOL, bases (new), upgrades for our junior folks, etc. etc.

 

[John Pennekamp]

Again, on the 50 you are correct. But you are not correct on the 70 rates. It isn't the 50 rates that are holding up a deal. It is the 70 rates, the retirement section, the instructor section, and PBS. Compromise on those 4 issues and you will probably get a deal if you want one....

I can't believe I'm agreeing with you.... but you're 100% correct.

Now having said that, I don't think our pilots are interested in settling on a 70 seat pay cut, screwing of the IPs, and PBS. I know I personally have no interest in the first and last. You may say the MEC failed to effectively instill realistic expectations in our pilots minds, and you'd be right. But where we are now, a majority of our pilots are so whipped up and pissed that they want an industry leading contract. And the MEC is saying they need to do what the majority wants. It is beginning to seem like a graveyard spiral isn't it?

I've said before that I think this company is going to be downsized no matter what we do. I think we should preserve our 70 rate plus COL, get Skywest 50 plus COL, drop the b fund retirement (but go for enhanced 401k) and put the IPs on the skywest system. That I would vote in tomorrow. But the company hasn't even come close to offering it, and yes, the MEC leadership is refusing to recognize that Comair+ is not a good target.

 

[John Pennekamp]

like I've said before, IMO with the last ASA proposal, if ALPA would use the more outrageous requests as bargaining chips, ALPA could get ASA to move further in the right direction on QOL and rigs. half the distance between 10% & 17% is 13.5% (not 13.5% payrate, 13.5% overall, as you say and I agree).


we are not THAT far from this.

but, if ALPA continues to simply scoff at ASAs proposals and refuse to find middle ground, they're going to lead us down a path we don't really want to and shouldn't have to go.

and again, in the mean time, we will continue to lose planes, routes, bases, QOL, bases (new), upgrades for our junior folks, etc. etc.

Agreed. Call or email your rep and let him know. I have.

 

[JoeMerchant]

True. Good point. But that's only part of our package too. Only about 25% (and decreasing) of our pilots fly the 70.

Your right. What good will industry leading 70 seat rates be when we lose our 70s? It affects the instructors the most. Right now most of them get 70 seat pay. As the 70s leave, many of them will bump down to 50 pay, and many will go back to the line.

We seem to be holding the line for 70 seat rates, instructor pay, and retirement. The retirement we are asking for isn't going to happen and it the 70 seat pilots and instructors that are going to suffer the most by us losing the 70s. Maybe we should reconsider our positions on these issues.

 

[ohplease!]

On the 50 yes, but not on the 70. Our current 70 rates are higher than everyone except Horizon and CMR. I suspect the CMR rates will not be a factor much longer one way or the other. Horizon is in a different ballgame for now. In fact, our current 70 rates are higher than the recently negotiated mainline 90 seat rates. They are higher than Jetblues 90 seat rates.

surely you realize that mainline pilots/alpa have NO INTENTION WHATSOEVER of flying a 90 seat plane....right? Please tell me you know that. If not, I'll lose a great deal of respect for you. That rate, IMO, is just ANOTHER slap at us regional 2nd class folks by ALPA National. It's another example of why we regional 2nd class folks should do whatever it takes to get ALPA OUT of our lives and something in place (if we must have something at all) that WILL work with OUR interests at heart. ALPA ONLY WANTS OUR MONEY. ESPECIALLY NOW SINCE ALL THE MAJORS HAVE TAKEN HUGE PAYCUTS!!!!! Duane and his buddies up there have boats/cars/mortgages/ex-wives&girlfriends to pay for.

 

[ohplease!]

Agreed. Call or email your rep and let him know. I have.

as have I, more than once.

 

[JoeMerchant]

I can't believe I'm agreeing with you.... but you're 100% correct.

Now having said that, I don't think our pilots are interested in settling on a 70 seat pay cut, screwing of the IPs, and PBS. I know I personally have no interest in the first and last. You may say the MEC failed to effectively instill realistic expectations in our pilots minds, and you'd be right. But where we are now, a majority of our pilots are so whipped up and pissed that they want an industry leading contract. And the MEC is saying they need to do what the majority wants. It is beginning to seem like a graveyard spiral isn't it?

I've said before that I think this company is going to be downsized no matter what we do. I think we should preserve our 70 rate plus COL, get Skywest 50 plus COL, drop the b fund retirement (but go for enhanced 401k) and put the IPs on the skywest system. That I would vote in tomorrow. But the company hasn't even come close to offering it, and yes, the MEC leadership is refusing to recognize that Comair+ is not a good target.

The end of the world must be upon us - we agree on something.

On the "70 seat paycut, screwing of the IPs, and PBS" we still don't agree. The current offer from management isn't a paycut on the 70. It isn't a raise, but it isn't a paycut either. On the IPs, they are going to get screwed worse as 70s leave. PBS is coming at some point regardless, so we might as well use it to get something else we want.

At least we agree on somethings.