ASA Classes

[~~~^~~~]

Alpa at ASA, are the pilots at ASA--no one else!

You are correct - and also very critical of ALPA.

Is ALPA a national union, or are we just the pilots at ASA? I happen to really like and support the efforts of the great volunteer staff, LEC Members and MEC Members at ASA.

I suspect you were not here for much of the fight from 1999 to 2001 but our MEC has had to become quite a bit more "politically correct" to keep ALPA National's support flowing. I understand what they are doing and appreciate the fact they walk a real tightrope. If you were at our last LEC meeting, you heard the reason that a resolution asking National not to allow bidding on phantom airplanes was pulled because of fear the Delta pilots might feel it was a "Kick in their nuts."

The correct decision was made in my opinion, but let us look at the issue. Airline Management has used phantom negotiations to cap pay rates. As you know Delta negotiated pay rates for RJ's that undercut ASA's current book. These negotiations were made with data that showed how much money Delta would save at DCI carriers with the concessionary RJ rates imposed across the board. So management is using whipsaw by basing pay rates at on competitive pay rates (ratified by ALPA) at airlines which do not operate those airplanes. Obviously it would be better for our profession if the pilots union did not ratify concessionary pay rates at airlines which have no plans to operate the aircraft. Such a resolution was made.

However, even resolving to stop phantom whipsaw bidding is a problem when you plan on taking an idea to ALPA National. Why? Why isn't ALPA National all about common sense solutions to raise our profession?

Could it be that the ruling members of ALPA National see a benefit to concessionary bargaining at DCI carriers? Could they see Delta's cost savings as a good thing for the Delta pilots?

Until ALPA deals with its conflict of interest and brings pilots together it is going to be an ineffective union. My interest is not to "bash" ALPA, but to try and save it. We need an effective union.

I do not see a pot of growth at the end of our negotiations - unless we undercut SkyWest. But, that is not an acceptable option - we will not do it.

Again, the reason for that problem rests with ALPA National. We have no scope. The reason we have no scope is because ALPA National stopped us from even trying when Bob Arnold asked to negotiate with Delta Airlines. Delta said yes, ALPA said no. Today we have 6 DCI carriers and our negotiating ability has eroded since the days when we were the only game in town.

In the past a resolved contract would be a prescription for growth. But now there are plenty of alter ego replacements. The E170's and CRJ900's you will see are "our growth" which has already got out of the barn. Aircraft orders take a lot of lead time. Delta's restructuring is mostly complete. There may be small variations in the execution, but this stuff is getting done now. Unfortunately almost all of this flying is going to non ALPA carriers. This is probably by design and again indicates our union's failure to deal with what they see as a conflict of interest which they are fixing by attacking our representational base.

Your attempt at a personal attack is based on incorrect information - resorting to personal attacks and trying to "out" people on FlightInfo has generally been considered pretty low. If you support the pilots at ASA, I encourage you to not attack them.

You ask what I'm for; I'm for the promotion of the Piloting Profession in general and the pilots of ASA in particular - join in, it is a worthy cause.

~~~^~~~

 

[JoeMerchant]

You are correct - and also very critical of ALPA.

Is ALPA a national union, or are we just the pilots at ASA? I happen to really like and support the efforts of the great volunteer staff, LEC Members and MEC Members at ASA.

I suspect you were not here for much of the fight from 1999 to 2001 but our MEC has had to become quite a bit more "politically correct" to keep ALPA National's support flowing. I understand what they are doing and appreciate the fact they walk a real tightrope. If you were at our last LEC meeting, you heard the reason that a resolution asking National not to allow bidding on phantom airplanes was pulled because of fear the Delta pilots might feel it was a "Kick in their nuts."

The correct decision was made in my opinion, but let us look at the issue. Airline Management has used phantom negotiations to cap pay rates. As you know Delta negotiated pay rates for RJ's that undercut ASA's current book. These negotiations were made with data that showed how much money Delta would save at DCI carriers with the concessionary RJ rates imposed across the board. So management is using whipsaw by basing pay rates at on competitive pay rates (ratified by ALPA) at airlines which do not operate those airplanes. Obviously it would be better for our profession if the pilots union did not ratify concessionary pay rates at airlines which have no plans to operate the aircraft. Such a resolution was made.

However, even resolving to stop phantom whipsaw bidding is a problem when you plan on taking an idea to ALPA National. Why? Why isn't ALPA National all about common sense solutions to raise our profession?

Could it be that the ruling members of ALPA National see a benefit to concessionary bargaining at DCI carriers? Could they see Delta's cost savings as a good thing for the Delta pilots?

Until ALPA deals with its conflict of interest and brings pilots together it is going to be an ineffective union. My interest is not to "bash" ALPA, but to try and save it. We need an effective union.

I do not see a pot of growth at the end of our negotiations - unless we undercut SkyWest. But, that is not an acceptable option - we will not do it.

Again, the reason for that problem rests with ALPA National. We have no scope. The reason we have no scope is because ALPA National stopped us from even trying when Bob Arnold asked to negotiate with Delta Airlines. Delta said yes, ALPA said no. Today we have 6 DCI carriers and our negotiating ability has eroded since the days when we were the only game in town.

In the past a resolved contract would be a prescription for growth. But now there are plenty of alter ego replacements. The E170's and CRJ900's you will see are "our growth" which has already got out of the barn. Aircraft orders take a lot of lead time. Delta's restructuring is mostly complete. There may be small variations in the execution, but this stuff is getting done now. Unfortunately almost all of this flying is going to non ALPA carriers. This is probably by design and again indicates our union's failure to deal with what they see as a conflict of interest which they are fixing by attacking our representational base.

Your attempt at a personal attack is based on incorrect information - resorting to personal attacks and trying to "out" people on FlightInfo has generally been considered pretty low. If you support the pilots at ASA, I encourage you to not attack them.

You ask what I'm for; I'm for the promotion of the Piloting Profession in general and the pilots of ASA in particular - join in, it is a worthy cause.

~~~^~~~

Fins,

Very well said! You and I don't agree on everything, but we can discuss our differences. The diehard "ALPA is always right" crowd usually resorts to personal attacks. That is the sign of a weak argument.

Tell us more about the resolution being retracted that would have prevent ALPA from bidding on phantom aircraft. It sounds like a good resolution to me. Why do we care what the Delta pilots think about it? They don't care about us, why should we care about them? There was a time when the ASA and CMR MECs wouldn't have worried about what the Delta pilots would think. Are those times over?

 

[Bizjet]

Fins,

Very well said! You and I don't agree on everything, but we can discuss our differences. The diehard "ALPA is always right" crowd usually resorts to personal attacks. That is the sign of a weak argument.

Tell us more about the resolution being retracted that would have prevent ALPA from bidding on phantom aircraft. It sounds like a good resolution to me. Why do we care what the Delta pilots think about it? They don't care about us, why should we care about them? There was a time when the ASA and CMR MECs wouldn't have worried about what the Delta pilots would think. Are those times over?

Why are you asking Fins for information on what happened at an LEC meeting? As LEC Sec/Treas. why weren't you there taking notes for the minutes or even returning the notes you stole from the last meeting you attended about 18 months or more ago? You were off for the last two meetings. Please share who on the MEC or LEC asked you to not attend? Please make up some fabrication (lie) so you can hide behind your own version of your revisionist history. You don't care about the ASA pilots, why should they care about you??

 

[AsaLossPaywAlpa]

Why

Because they do not want him there?
They only want sheep...
not someone thats INFORMED.

 

[Pogue Mahone]

So if we arent hiring anytime soon why is ASA spending money on hiring a new basic indoc ground instructor? Think before you speak idiots. If this place sucks you know where the door is, stop complaining about everything. Management could say we were getting a 50% payraise make the ramp automated and 99.9% of the people on this board would still complain about the pay and ramp. I get so sick of listening to co-workers complain about this stuff for hours. And yes I know it sucks to wait for an hour to get parked but we get paid for it, it doesnt hurt us a bit. And for you people who say do whats in the contract and nothing else, thats hurting the people whos income goes to our pay check, its not hurting management. Dont take your hate for management out on our passengers.

We like complaining. If the whining bothers you so much, why don't you quit? We don't need your kind here.

 

[GreatView]

Until you fly with me, that is... then we can two-engine taxi and full-thrust takeoff to our hearts' content... That is, if we ever leave the gate after we wait for fuel for hours after our "One call, that's all."

That's fine and dandy, but our current contract as a DCI carrier has DL paying the fuel bill. Was told this in recurrent yesterday by our Program Mgr.

 

[GreatView]

Well somethings gotta give. They are sending IPs to SLC to cover flights because we are so shorthanded. Fact.

You're right on here. The reason for this is because we are below the DCI threshold for completions in SLC. If we cancel below a certain threshold because of OUR operational problems (short-staffed), we then begin to pay penalties........

SLC is the main reason for the Premium Payout this month for open-time....

 

[jacksjj]

So..... about those classes at ASA.......?

 

[sweptback]

So..... about those classes at ASA.......?

You would think runnning classes would fix our short-staffing problem.

However, management in their infinite wisdom decided that airplanes should be transferred to SkyWest for them to operate. See, they already have pilots trained and ready to operate ASA 70-seat airplanes for 50-seat pay.

 

[jacksjj]

Im sure glad I took someone's advice and didn't stop flying once I got my "welcome aboard" letter in the mail. I was optimistic. They were...as it appears.... right.

 

[737 Pylt]

Fins,

Tell us more about the resolution being retracted that would have prevent ALPA from bidding on phantom aircraft.

Aren't you on the ASA MEC John? Why aren't you in the know of this? You, as an elected ALPA rep should be telling the people you represent about the resolution, but then again, you're too busy holding notes from MEC meetings and crying that nobody likes you, which is probably true!

It sounds like a good resolution to me. Why do we care what the Delta pilots think about it?

We don't care if you care....But if it is regarding DL code, then unfortunately, for you personally John, then it it concerns the DL pilots, you know the group you love to hate, and who you ultimately blame all your pathetic problems on!

They don't care about us, why should we care about them?

We care very much about our ASA brethren, its YOU John that we don't care about!

There was a time when the ASA and CMR MECs wouldn't have worried about what the Delta pilots would think. Are those times over?

My guess is that CMR is trying to repair the damages done to the DL relationship over the furlough fiasco a few years ago, so they might start to care. I personally want all 3 MEC's to get along well, because the more united we are, the more we can stick it to DL management! I am just sick of people like you and your girlfriend (~~~^~~~) constantly blaming all your petty problems on everyone else. Here's some advice....Quit your childish bitching, do your job you were elected to do as secretary/treasure, and quit being part of the Friggin problem and part of the solution!
737

 

[av8er2]

Go to Skywest or CHQ. It could be a long time at ASA with this mgt.

 

[Pogue Mahone]

John is not on the ASA MEC. He is just a secretary for the LEC 112 in ATL. He has only been to 1 or 2 meetings since elected. Just long enough to take minutes that he never submitted and abscond with an ALPA laptop.

That's all.

 

[ASARJMan]

Was in the crew room the other day and a chief pilot (CV) said it looks like the spring before any new hire classes begin unless something changes.

That traitor? Don't believe a word out of that jerk's mouth! All he does is spread mismanagement propaganda in the crew lounge. He brings nothing to the table. One day he'll be back on line, and then we'll see how he gets along with real pilots.

VOTED IN FAVOR!

 

[ASARJMan]

John is not on the ASA MEC. He is just a secretary for the LEC 112 in ATL. He has only been to 1 or 2 meetings since elected. Just long enough to take minutes that he never submitted and abscond with an ALPA laptop.That's all.

Joey's too busy licking CV's booties. He thinks mismanagement (ex-Delta managers) will take care of him and his old gf. Problems is, someday soon JA's will begin to get his people in at ASA, and those ex-Delta managers who screwed Delta up, and now ASA, will be gone, hopefully in the islands with that useless Skip. So, there goes Joey's promises.

VOTED IN FAVOR! (cancels out Joey's NO vote)

 

[Bizjet]

That traitor? Don't believe a word out of that jerk's mouth! All he does is spread mismanagement propaganda in the crew lounge. He brings nothing to the table. One day he'll be back on line, and then we'll see how he gets along with real pilots.

VOTED IN FAVOR!

I heard a rumor that CV asked a pilot how line flying was going. The pilot said that it sucked. CV put in to go back to the line to personally verify that sucking action the same day.

 

[CFIT]

So..... about those classes at ASA.......?

There will be no new hire classes at ASA for a long, long time.
The present shortage will be fixed when the 700's leave (and that maybe all of them).

 

[79%N1]

Thats what I have been saying. ASA is a dead end job. There is NO WAY on earth I would come here for any reason. Coming to ASA is the worst aviation decision I have ever made. If you are a captain here making decent money with no chance of downgrading it may be different for you, so don't give the rest of us your crap. ASA is like a legacy carrier now for upgrade. You can move up only if someone retires or quits. If I were here under 3 years, I would absolutely, unequivocally, certainly leave for CHQ or Skywest. One more hour of SIC time is useless to anyone who desires to get the hell out of here and work at a real company that does not lie to you, cut every corner to save a nickle while spending a dollar, and is the joke of the airline world for their DOT statistics. And to head off all you 'just quit if you don't like it' replies, PM me a lead on a job ---- ANY JOB. Cause trust me, I've been looking. Like I said, ASA is a sinking ship. Anybody who thinks it's going to be all roses IF we ever get a new contract is high on something. JA purchased ASA to dismantle it, and it's union, and take over with Skywest. Don't kid yourself if you think different. By this time next year, ASA will have only 50 seaters out of ATL, and maybe LAX. The ATR's will be retired and Skywest will have all of our 700's and an ATL base for 900's and maybe 700's. That will be a net loss of over 40 airplanes! Can you say 200 downgrades and 200 furloughs (attrition aside). There is no logical business reason for Skywest to not do this, and we have no protection against it.

 

[CFIT]

. The ATR's will be retired and Skywest will have all of our 700's and an ATL base for 900's and maybe 700's.

Not sure about the ATR's, but the rest is correct.

 

[~~~^~~~]

79% - You speak the truth, Sir.

Good luck to all of us on our attempts to get out of here. Hiring appears to be on the rise at SouthWest, Continental, UPS and other good places. I hope Delta begins hiring next year.