ASA Bucket-- I Mean Suckit System

[SkyNation]

so you turned this....

this isn't an endorsement of the system, merely a clarification.

into my saying it's FANTASTIC? whatever dude.

 

[John Pennekamp]

The bucket system sucks at SkyWest. There is no reserve transparency, no way for non-reserves to find out what bucket reserves are in, and very little info for reserves on the seniority of reserves in various buckets. I did reserve on the old seniority system and it was pretty cool. I will NEVER go on reserve here again due to the bucket system. ZERO accountability for management. Bucket system coupled with PBS means life at SkyWest really sucks for reserves and junior pilots.

Supposedly we're going to have total transparency, where you go online and see how many reserves there are in each bucket, and where you sit.

That's light years ahead of what our reserves have now. A fly/no fly "bid" is taped to the top of a stack of pizzas and delivered to the window on the 7th floor.

 

[John Pennekamp]

you have to bear in mind that a very vocal minority on this board does not speak for the SkyWest group.

But I suppose you do? Bahahahahah!!!! :laugh:

My personal tally indicates that the "unionistas" have you outgunned, there SkyNation. But don't let that stop you from promoting yourself as the voice and conscience of the SkyWest pilots!

 

[Long Time Gone]

so you turned this....



into my saying it's FANTASTIC? whatever dude.

While you may say that your statement isn't an endorsement, by stating how grand it was in your pocket, IS an endorsement.

this isn't an endorsement of the system, merely a clarification.

I spent a ton of time on reserve as an FO in SLC, our largest base. I made more those months than any other, and I always broke guarantee.

No, you didn't directly say it was FANTASTIC, since those were my words of interpretation. You did, however, endorse it by stating how much you made.

It's kind of like voting for the war before you voted against it.:laugh:

 

[Stifler's Mom]

please show me where I said the bucket system was FANTASTIC.

Right here.

The bucket system is FANTASTIC.

 

[BIGGOAT]

The bucket system seems to be partly intended to keep senoir pilots from sitting reserve and never flying only to collect a check. It is an major improvement over what we have now. Our current reserve system does not account for seniority at all. Under the old contract, crew sched. calls whoever they want from the reserve list. After you complete the assignment you usually get extended for what can become a 6 day trip.

Goat

 

[COOPERVANE]

Right here.

Originally Posted by SkyNation
The bucket system is FANTASTIC.

O.K....That's funny as sheeeeeeeite!

 

[enuffalready]

believe me... I know about sheety the scheduling department has been......I have been at ASA for 7 years.

My point is, if they company has to pay someone regardless, why wouldnt they want the senior guy to fly as little as possible... if they fly 3 hours a month.. that pay is just guanantee

why didnt they just make it a fly...no fly... there are plenty of junior guys that actually want to fly and it would cost the company less to let them fly and let me sit at home in the jacuzzi.

seems like the company would have gone for it, since it costs them less. They always biatch about how the senior guys are pulling down the company and that after 5 years you should be gone... so why pay those same guys more when there are plenty of junior guys that would gladly fly for less .....

just doesnt make sense to me...

 

[120% Torque]

believe me... I know about sheety the scheduling department has been......I have been at ASA for 7 years.

My point is, if they company has to pay someone regardless, why wouldnt they want the senior guy to fly as little as possible... if they fly 3 hours a month.. that pay is just guanantee

why didnt they just make it a fly...no fly... there are plenty of junior guys that actually want to fly and it would cost the company less to let them fly and let me sit at home in the jacuzzi.

seems like the company would have gone for it, since it costs them less. They always biatch about how the senior guys are pulling down the company and that after 5 years you should be gone... so why pay those same guys more when there are plenty of junior guys that would gladly fly for less .....

just doesnt make sense to me...

The bucket system will make it equally crappy for all pilots, jr and sr alike. Sr guys will no long be able to bid it and not fly so Sr guys wont bid it anymore. The bucket system will still result in six days of flying because with it in place and pbs they will further reduce the total number of reserves and the reserves that are left will get their butts kicked. Transperancy is nice but if you are always short on reserves and everybody is flying a ton it wont be as meaningful.

 

[John Pennekamp]

The bucket system will make it equally crappy for all pilots, jr and sr alike. Sr guys will no long be able to bid it and not fly so Sr guys wont bid it anymore. The bucket system will still result in six days of flying because with it in place and pbs they will further reduce the total number of reserves and the reserves that are left will get their butts kicked. Transperancy is nice but if you are always short on reserves and everybody is flying a ton it wont be as meaningful.

You don't seem to get it. Right now, we have NO SYSTEM. On reserve at ASA, you are scheduling's bitch. Senior pilots don't bid reserve. Oh, and WE DON'T HAVE PBS!

With this system, SOME senior pilots may bid reserve, because even with the buckets, they have a fairly good chance of not flying much.

 

[120% Torque]

With this system, SOME senior pilots may bid reserve, because even with the buckets, they have a fairly good chance of not flying much.

Unless you have some sort of "bypass flying" function I do not think this will be true. Everybody on reserve will be flown equally (which will probably be alot....the bean counters know this is the cheapest way to run). Doesn't the new contract ask for PBS? If so total staffing will decrease and so will reserves. See my post above on why. Wish it were not so but based on experience it will be.

Overall the conract is better than Skywest so congratulations on that.

One other thing regarding how managment will further capatalize on the bucket system. I dont know how reserves lines are at asa right now. At Skywest prior to the bucket system there were x number of reserve lines stacked with weekends off, then x number of reserve lines stacked with similar weekdays off. You will find that after the bucket system is in place the days off will be very carefully staggered with very little overlap. I personaly believe they use a computer to figure this out. It makes it so that there are never more than a very small handfull of guys in one bucket at any given time so even if you are senior you end up flying just as much as everyone else (ie normal staffing all reserves fly very close to guarantee, short staffing as you are now = everybody flys for example 90 hours on reserve). I am not a fan of the bucket system. If for whatever reason the vote on this TA doesnt pass, I would push very hard for some additional rules to allow the senior guy to have some advantages (ie bypass function) so that he can fly somewhat less than the jr guys.

 

[120% Torque]

The bucket system seems to be partly intended to keep senoir pilots from sitting reserve and never flying only to collect a check. It is an major improvement over what we have now.

I think you might have it backwards. The ability of a senior pilot to bid reserve and not fly is a good thing and something every pilot could look forward to if he didnt mind only making guarantee. I understand you dont have alot of reserve rules right now and it is kind of random but putting rules into place that makes all reserves fly a ton is not a good thing either imho.

Having said that, your contract as a whole is superior to skywest and I would trade for it in an instant.

 

[wms]

Along with the bucket, there will also be "call me first". They have to call the CMF in seniority order, then the rest in reverse seniority, within the bucket.

 

[SSDD]

Along with the bucket, there will also be "call me first". They have to call the CMF in seniority order, then the rest in reverse seniority, within the bucket.

You're not understanding the fact that the bucket system allows the company to operate at a bare minimum reserve compliment, so there will only be one person in each bucket. Say 4 reserves: one in the one day bucket, one in the two day bucket, one in the three day bucket, and one in the four day bucket. And the company gets to decide which bucket they're going to use. Call me first/call me last doesn't mean anything.

But ok, enough of that. You guys have got this figured out. Its better than what you have(on paper only). More power to you. But in 5 or 6 months we'll be back here, and its going to be really hard to resist an I told you so!

Good luck.

 

[wms]

You're not understanding the fact that the bucket system allows the company to operate at a bare minimum reserve compliment, so there will only be one person in each bucket. Say 4 reserves: one in the one day bucket, one in the two day bucket, one in the three day bucket, and one in the four day bucket. And the company gets to decide which bucket they're going to use. Call me first/call me last doesn't mean anything.

But ok, enough of that. You guys have got this figured out. Its better than what you have(on paper only). More power to you. But in 5 or 6 months we'll be back here, and its going to be really hard to resist an I told you so!

Good luck.

According to the summary and the CNC guys, as well as the TA on section 13 released by the company awhile back, the bucket merely means skd can't use a reserve with two days left for a four-day trip etc. They still have to use a CMF pilot first, then someone with enough days of reserve duty left to cover the trip before they extend another reserve into a day off. Buckets aren't built by scheduling, but are determined by how many days of reserve a pilot has left before he starts his days off.

I don't know where you work and how you do it, but that's how our TA describes it.

 

[120% Torque]

This was posted on a skykwest message board just as the bucket system was being implimented at skywest. Thought the asa guys/gals could gleen something.

OK, I still feel like there are several areas that need to be addressed regarding this new policy. Vacation, Comp. Days, Golden Days, etc are awarded based on adequate staffing of reserves. If there are too few reserves when requesting any of the above you will be given the standard response, “Sorry your (fill in the blank) is denied because we only have X number of reserves.” Chris Able stated the following:

“Minimum reserve staffing is a level that Anita Spencer determines adequate for each domicile. In small domiciles the minimum level may be one reserve, while in SLC that number may be 6. The minimum reserve staffing level will change depending on the time of year or time of month but will generally stay about the same. I will try to publish the minimum reserve staffing numbers on this forum.”

What if Anita says 6 reserves are all that are required in SLC and this never produces adequate coverage to allow approval of the requests mentioned above? Or let’s assume that 6 was an adequate number and for whatever reason this number was not maintained (total EMB reserve staffing dropped to as little as one for an entire month in SLC last year) who is accountable and how can the pilot group be assured that this minimum number will be maintained? Does the SAPA scheduling committee have a way to audit the staffing and determine for the pilot group what an appropriate number of reserves should be? What are the consequences if this number is not maintained? Fortunately we are now seeing a decent staffing but that was not the case for over two years and we all know how fast it could go back to understaffed.

Also, I have been trying to understand the “bucket system” of reserve and reading very closely what everybody has written thus far. I feel like I now see what David Whittaker was talking about referring to this as being a pay cut or another form of “proficiency flying”. This became clear when I called Crew Support to gage how much reserves were flying in Salt Lake over the past couple months. With the use of a helpful Scheduler I learned some interesting things about some of our reserves. This may be pure coincidence but two senior “call first” reserves had accumulated aprox 74 hours of flying and strangely no more flying was being assigned to them. It would also appear more flying was then being awarded to those further down the chain. I don’t want to appear as a conspiracy theorist and I hesitate to call foul play but I am concerned about the implementation of the bucket system.

The way I see it there are several inherent problems with the system as it currently exists. First, the “real time online list” of reserves does a meager job of portraying how personnel really stack up. The name of every person on reserve should be listed, not just the person on reserve checking status. I would almost venture to say that it took more computer code for the programmers to list a persons position in line than it would have to list everybody’s name with him, but I’m not a programmer so I cant be sure. Without these names there is less accountability placed on crew scheduling in my opinion. Also, I see no privacy issues with listing who’s on reserve. It’s not the same as listing someone’s schedule, which could place a persons position.

What’s that saying, knowledge is power? Without knowing who is on reserve during what days it’s hard to track whether seniority is truly being followed. Further, it would seem the “the bucket system” could provide an easy out for a scheduler to use any person at any time they please. All they have to do if questioned regarding an assignment for example is tell you that you had three days available in a row while the 5 people junior to you had only two days available and this is a three day trip. What about the one other junior blank name that shows three days off that you see listed on the computer you say. Well that no name was just being awarded a vacation day in the middle of that week and was no longer going to have three days available. Maybe this scenario is a little far fetched but it illustrates a point. Without hard data (names coupled with R1/R2 awards for the month) and ways to track the callouts there is no accountability and crew support could look for convenient ways to dilute the overall flying. Those looking to maximize their pay will have a hard time doing so, those bidding for “back up status” could end up flying a lot more than their seniority would dictate under the old straight seniority system. OK, this novel is over. Tell me where I am going wrong?