ASA 70 Seat Cost

[sweptback]

Are you sure that Skywest - J Atkins is in the dark about this ????

Remember this is all an effort to rationalize a paycut on the 700 so JA can use ATL as a growth platform for this aircraft.

They're doing this intentionally.

That's my point! Everybody seems to be making Atkin out as the good guy. I'm not so sure about that.

 

[DrunkIrishman]

Hey 701EV, u pretty smart!

ASADriver-

Careful, you accidentally bought into mgmts ploy. No, neither our line pilots nor our instructors need to take a cut in pay. Our company is very profitable, there is no need for a pay reduction.

 

[homerjdispatch]

FYI... It's ATKIN, not Atkins!!!!

 

[Bizjet]

Let's keep the 70 rate the same and cut back on how many instructors get 70 pay - problem solved! The instructors have it good - if anything gets cut it should be their pay.

The IP's are turning out for picketing and family awareness events in high percentage numbers. There is no need to single out any group for cuts except the incompetent management at ASA. All management should be given pay cuts based on the last place performance numbers that they report to the DOT. If they [management] continue to stay in the crew lounge and out of the G.O. we will probably see performance improve due to their absence from the work place.

They could also cut pay for the Chief Pilots. Boy Wonder, Wash your underwear in the hotel sink, and I never met a male pilot I didn't like, should all take pay cuts because they follow managements orders like true little minions.

 

[Snapperhead]

Anyone heard BL's "starfish" story?? He was 5 feet in front of me telling this story with tears in his eyes. I was not only shocked, but thought it was really sad. I loved his assistant that started getting emotional too.

That sounds hilarious; so what's the "starfish story"?

 

[whatitdoing?]

Hey ASADRIVER, before I say "screw you", I'm curious why you have a thing against the pay of the ASA instructors? I have several friends that are LCP's at ASA and I can tell you they earn EVERY SINGLE dollar they make. They do IOE, Line Checks, Observations, Test Flights, Ferry Flights, and FAA observations. They routinely have 12 days off and sometimes have just 10 days off. Not all are making 70 seat pay because not all can HOLD 70 seat a/c. There's only 30 or so LCPs that are busting their butts out there keeping our airline running. So, ASADRIVER, how many times do you have an FAA inspector on your JS? Maybe 1 time in 6 or so months? LCP's routinely have anywhere from 3 to 4 a month. Now, you might say big deal, but maybe you've heard of this one particular FAA inspector that fails Captains and removes LCP's letter of authorization for failing to bring the speed bug back to V2+15 when it sat there at V2+20. 5 kts is what got 2 LCP's in recent months. Also, do you have a PC every 6 months? No? Well all LCP's do!! How about being crossed trained on both the 50 and the 70 seater. Ya, learning and remembering two differents planes while instructing on IOE. I know you don't do that!! Also, you see many instructors at picketing events or fighting at the GO for the line pilots rights. You have no clue what the hell you're talking about and you have no idea what is being done behind closed doors to take away your rights as a line pilot during training events. The Satan and Hitler days are trying to come back and I know the instructors are flighting against that. You can easily spot a LCP out on the line. They're the ones that have bags under their eyes from doing IOE and and more than likely chain smoking after their students last landing. "They're going to flare, they're going to flare, THEY'RE NOT GOING TO FLARE......I have the controls" is what one LCP told me. So all the power to them. I hope they get lots of money because I don't have the balls to do it. So going back to the original part of my post......."SCREW YOU ASADRIVER!!!".

 

[ASApuppy]

Don't forget, not only are our IP's current in both aircraft, they are current in both seats in both aircraft. That's 4 seats to be up on.

I think a lot of this pressure on the IP's has come from the best practices study. I talked with Skywest IP's and they work quite differently from ASA. For starters, ASA has approximately 100 IP's, whereas Skywest has about 30. The Skywest IP's typical training day might include a double sim. Brief two crews at 5 am, sim 1 from 8 to 12, followed by sim 2 noon to 4, then a debrief. Skywest pays these guys very well. I was told that some instructors clear $150K, but only have 3 or 4 days off a month. Thats great for them. I used to be a overtime whore in my last career, but it became more and more mandetory. That was one reason to switch to a career with Federally mandated days off. That was my choice though. Skywest has found enough guys willing to work like that so that their manning can be quite a bit skewed from ASA's. I am in favor of work rules that allow a person to make some extra $$$, but don't require them to do so. From the pilots I've talked to at Skywest's outstations, their implementation of PBS is quite the opposite. Stories of guys that were holding 3 on, 4 off are now working 6 days in a row because they "had a hole in their schedule". Supposedly, it gets launched at the big hubs next month. Standby for the fireworks.

Bottomline, we need to find a way that it is in managements best interest, as well as ours, to stop the infighting.

for a VoiceofReason, when you and all of your management chronies start believing that labor is your biggest asset to making your goals, rather than the largest line item on some balance sheet, you are 90% there in regaining our trust. Personally, I don't think your capable of that. I'll save a spot in the unemployment line for you behind me!

 

[whatitdoing?]

ASApuppy, I couldn't figure out who you were talking to or about? If you're talking to me, i'm not management. I'm a regular line captain at ASA. I defend others when I feel it's appropriate. I'll continue defending our IP's because I feel they deserve our respect when we have a few like ASADRIVER that have no clue what the hell they're talking about bashing their pay. Maybe he should apply to the training department and get the extra hour of pay. But, for those of you that don't, respect the fact that they're doing quite a lot for the money and have a HUGE amount of responsibility. The point that I'm making is that you should pick your fights carefully and question excatly who the hell the enemy is. If you're pissed at their pay, well, you go do it. If not, then shut the hell up......this being directed at ASADRIVER. A change of subject: Skywest pilots will never get ALPA because of their pilot group makeup. They are probably 85 percent Mormon. Now, one might say....who cares??!! But if you understand the Mormon church, you'll understand why ALPA will never be on their property. Most of Skywest management is also Mormon which makes them EXTREMELY powerful. Now the Mormon church to an outsider is a "cult" in some respect. And, if you're an outsider, you might as well not exist. Ask anyone who's been to SLC. Are you CLS?? I remember being asked that and I had no idea what that meant. As soon as I said no, I was like a ghost. But, if you're an insider or a member, you're golden.....as long as you're in SLC. This church controls everything at Skywest. So why, if you're a member, go against the wishes of the Mormon church? ALPA will never be on Skywest's property. Skywest's pilot's group is too scared to upset the balance. That's the truth and noone can argue with that. Also, their "in house" union is powerless and just feeds on anything that management decides to give them. Hence, Skywest's promise to give industry standard rates on their 70 seaters once they get them on property. Well, guess what happened!!?? Who would of guessed that they'd keep the pay at 50 seat rates and claim that their agreement never happened. But nothing will ever be done about that. Enjoy the ride, because at this point, they feel nothing from the lack of KY.

Ok....BL starfish story. He was saying that there's a father and son on the beach walking together when the son sees ALL these dead or dying starfish. The son runs up to one and throws it back into the ocean. The father laughs and says, "Son, why are you throwing back that starfish. There's nothing you can do!". Well, the son responds, "Dad, I know, but every little bit helps". "And if I can save just ONE starfish, I did my part!!". The father responds, "you know what son, you're right". BL tied this into us trying to get our costs in check and that every little bit helps. This coming from an EXECUTIVE......with tears coming from his eyes because he said that he can "so relate" to this story. His "male" assistant looked like he just met Britney Spears and starts to get emotional and there I am. I looked around with my mouth open and started to crack up. I've never seen such an embarrassing story from a LEADER of my company in my life. Everyone else did the same thing and walked away. This story is also told in RGT. Even today, I'm shocked at the story and the experience of seeing someone that's deciding the future of ASA do that. God help us.....

 

[amcnd]

"WHATITDOING" You have no idea what you are talking about! First the Mormon church has nothing to do with SkyWest. Second we have allot more then 30 IP's. Just about every SLC CA is a IP. 700 cost's don't just include the pilots wage it's all cost's to operate the aircraft. I'm sure the company knows the real cost. Good luck. One thing is for sure you shouldn't have to take a concessionary contract.:nuts:

 

[Pogue Mahone]

A change of subject: Skywest pilots will never get ALPA because of their pilot group makeup. They are probably 85 percent Mormon. Now, one might say....who cares??!! But if you understand the Mormon church, you'll understand why ALPA will never be on their property. Most of Skywest management is also Mormon which makes them EXTREMELY powerful. Now the Mormon church to an outsider is a "cult" in some respect. And, if you're an outsider, you might as well not exist. Ask anyone who's been to SLC. Are you CLS?? I remember being asked that and I had no idea what that meant. As soon as I said no, I was like a ghost. But, if you're an insider or a member, you're golden.....as long as you're in SLC. This church controls everything at Skywest. So why, if you're a member, go against the wishes of the Mormon church? ALPA will never be on Skywest's property. Skywest's pilot's group is too scared to upset the balance. That's the truth and noone can argue with that.

Hey whatitdoing....your village called.

 

[whatitdoing?]

Ok, before I spank the monkey....ie....you amcnd, let's begin with what I said on my post. If you re-read my post, you'll see that I say 30 LCP's. That's LCP's, not IPs. Since the seperation of the training department, you're either a LCP or an IP. Hence, you have no idea what YOU'RE talking about. You are correct to say that ASA has more than 30 "flight training" pilots under the umbrella of the Training Department. But, there is a difference. So, again.....who's your momma? About the Mormon church, you're again wrong. No one, beside an idiot....ie...again.....you......can say that the Mormon church doesn't have a HUGE influence on Skywest Inc.. Since every board member beside 1 is a member of the Mormon church, how much influence do you think the church has on Skywest priorities? I'm guessing ALOT. So, I'll retard it for you. If you have a board that is comprised of many members of a "cult" and you have MANY employees as members of a "cult", then wouldn't you say the church has a royal flush with Skywest Inc.? Damn, spanking the monkey is fun AMCND. Third, I assume you're right about many instructors in SLC since it's shrinking. But being there's only 2 that are based there, that wouldn't be a lot. You might see other LCP's, not IP's out there doing line checks, but they are probably DHing in. So you're assumption of there being tons of IPs (you're again wrong because they're LCP's) out in SLC is yet again untrue. You let me know when the monkey has had enough........

 

[whatitdoing?]

Oh ya, Mahone....I have no idea what you mean by that. If you're assuming that the village called for its "idiot" , then read the previous post and I'll re-connect them to you. Have a flaming time......

 

[CFIT]

Ok, before I spank the monkey....ie....you amcnd, let's begin with what I said on my post. If you re-read my post, you'll see that I say 30 LCP's. That's LCP's, not IPs. Since the seperation of the training department, you're either a LCP or an IP. Hence, you have no idea what YOU'RE talking about. You are correct to say that ASA has more than 30 "flight training" pilots under the umbrella of the Training Department. But, there is a difference. So, again.....who's your momma? About the Mormon church, you're again wrong. No one, beside an idiot....ie...again.....you......can say that the Mormon church doesn't have a HUGE influence on Skywest Inc.. Since every board member beside 1 is a member of the Mormon church, how much influence do you think the church has on Skywest priorities? I'm guessing ALOT. So, I'll retard it for you. If you have a board that is comprised of many members of a "cult" and you have MANY employees as members of a "cult", then wouldn't you say the church has a royal flush with Skywest Inc.? dang, spanking the monkey is fun AMCND. Third, I assume you're right about many instructors in SLC since it's shrinking. But being there's only 2 that are based there, that wouldn't be a lot. You might see other LCP's, not IP's out there doing line checks, but they are probably DHing in. So you're assumption of there being tons of IPs (you're again wrong because they're LCP's) out in SLC is yet again untrue. You let me know when the monkey has had enough........

Not quite true-
Most IP's live in SLC or Utah, don't hold me to this but I think only 3 live outside of Ut. out of the 32 or so RJ IP's

There are alot of LCA's in SLC because it's easier to focus the training from that point.

To be a IP you must first be a LCA and a Sim CA, not that it is required by the Feds it's just the way it's done.

Not sure about your stats on the BOD's affiliation but my guess is the SLC pilot ranks are around 50 -70% LDS, and the other domiciles close to the per capita percentage.

The Mormon church anti union agenda is probably more closely tied to the conservative republican bench more than anything, my opinion.

 

[whatitdoing?]

LOL....good point. But at ASA, you're incorrect about the LCA first before IP. I guess, if you look at how it was done in the past, the IP would come first and then he/she would be a LCA giving PC's and Lofts. And I know only 2 LCP's are based in SLC. That's it, no more. You might, like I said before, have a few that DH out there to get the job done or do a route observation, but that's all. ASA seperated the Training Department to either Standards or Flight Training. All pilots assigned to Standards are LCP's and only a handful of the IP's on the Training side are qualified to be PC/Loft/type facilitators or what we'd call LCP or DE's. Most do groundschool, CAT II training, or RGT. I'm not bashing you CFIT, just stating the facts.

 

[CFIT]

LOL....good point. But at ASA, you're incorrect about the LCA first before IP. I guess, if you look at how it was done in the past, the IP would come first and then he/she would be a LCA giving PC's and Lofts. And I know only 2 LCP's are based in SLC. That's it, no more. You might, like I said before, have a few that DH out there to get the job done or do a route observation, but that's all. ASA seperated the Training Department to either Standards or Flight Training. All pilots assigned to Standards are LCP's and only a handful of the IP's on the Training side are qualified to be PC/Loft/type facilitators or what we'd call LCP or DE's. Most do groundschool, CAT II training, or RGT. I'm not bashing you CFIT, just stating the facts.

I can see the companies approaching from different ways.

Just so I am looking at this correctly, is a LCP the same as what I referenced as a LCA (Line Check Airman), able to do IOE, Line checks, and route checks?

Then we have Sim Check Airman, able to do PC's, RLOFT's, and some do initial sim training?

We also have a group of Designated Examiners for the type rides, I think there are 6 or 7 of them.

Do your instructors teach sim, LOFT, and ground school, no flame, just asking?

 

[whatitdoing?]

You are correct!! LCA are LCP's. They are the same. Yes, you are correct in saying you have LCP's doing Lofts or PC's on the Flight Training side. But you have a limited number of LCP's on the Flight Training side while all pilots on the Standards side are LCP's. My point being, we don't have 103 instructors making 70 seat captain pay since some can't hold 70 seat captain. If you don't get the override of 1 hour for each event (linecheck or ioe) then the expense that was referenced for the 70 seater isn't true. It was posted earlier that by getting rid of the instructors "overrated" pay, it would solve the problem of 70 seat costs. It was also stated that instructors weren't doing anything for the line pilots and implied that they were making all sorts of cash with a "screw you " mentality. Sim instructors usually don't even break the 95 hour guarantee. Since we only have around 30 or 40 LCP's that make that override, then cutting all instructor's pay would have little effect on the 70 seat cost structure. You've been correct in all your statements, I just pointed out that since the seperation, not all pilots in the training department are LCP's or LCA. But you can be an instructor and never do a line check, loft, IOE, or PC and only see a classroom. That was my main point. Hell, things are so confusing, they aren't even called "instructors" anymore. They're called "facilitators". It's a legal issue since you're facilitating experience during IOE, not instructing in a 121 carrier with passengers. Oh well...

 

[ExHeloGuy]

I'm a LCP and I am confused after that thread???????

 

[CFIT]

Yep, me too!

 

[AVoiceOfReason]

Hey VoiceOfReason, whatya think about this issue?

Hoser

Well Hoser, your not going to like it, but I think our 70 seat pay will look more like the industry rate than our current rate. Either that or we lose the 70 seaters. CMR and SKYW are paid a lot less to fly the 70. Even the Delta pilots just agreed to fly the E190 for $95 per hour at the top end.

 

[Pogue Mahone]

Well Hoser, your not going to like it, but I think our 70 seat pay will look more like the industry rate than our current rate. Either that or we lose the 70 seaters. CMR and SKYW are paid a lot less to fly the 70. Even the Delta pilots just agreed to fly the E190 for $95 per hour at the top end.

You are management right??? Scott? Brian? Come on tell us the truth.