Article: Comair not a 'give-up' airline

[RSRVWINDSURFR]

Embraerdriver

Dude,

Your selfish ignorance would be comical if it wasn't a huge reason regional pilots get paid the way we do.

People like you are the ones who sell out the regional pilot group as a whole. You'll do/sign ANYTHING you can to get those shiny new airplanes on property--undercutting other airlines with employees who actually have standards.

You say you don't care because you'll be off at a major-and it will be someone else's problem then. PATHETIC.

It's only about you, isn't it? You'd fit in real well with all of the '83 hires at CAL.

Comair, I applaud you guys for standing up for what is right. Your pilot group's unwavering unity is impressive.

 

[BlackCoffee]

The general finally starts showing his true colors.

 

[Otto]

Gee, if only my Delta buddies would get this support instead of being vilified for standing their ground too...

If I take a pay cut, my wife has to get a job just to pay the mortgage. If DAL guys take a pay cut, they have to sell their boat. That's the difference.

 

[rjcap]

Mainline is looking at a Chapter 11 filing that will devastate the pilot contract and the retirment fund.

This all boils down to a game of chicken. Either Grinstein or the pilot group will blink first. The downside is that if it goes to far and chap 11 is filed the pilots will take the worst beating and not Grinstein.

Ultimately the decision will be made by the 55% of the pilots who are most senior. Their concern for their pension accounts will be the driving force. ASA and Comair and the rest of DCI are not even in this battle.

 

[skiddriver]

If Delta Inc goes into BK, mainline pilots stand to lose their retirement fund. I don't have one to lose.

Delta pay for a guy two years out of the military is two times what mine is (and I'm two years out of the military). After another year, it's three times my pay.

Those who have the most to lose (gain) need to give the most. So Delta sells us. Who loses in that deal? Go ahead Gen. L., get G to put us on the block.

Comair pay is okay. Delta pay is great. Cutting Delta pay makes it great(-). Cutting my pay makes it unliveable. There is a reason that our tax code is progressive. If you think you'll get a "let's all pitch in" attitude from us, so that your retirement fund can remain untouched, think twice. Come up with some substantial reason to help out, other than maintaining your pay and benefits, then maybe we can talk.

Just remember, disregarding the huge difference in additional expense to mother D for the mainline pilots benefits, retirements, and work rules - Delta mainline annual pilot payroll is over $1B, Comair's pilot payroll is in the vicinity of $100M. Where are the real savings to be found?

 

[General Lee]

Well Gollll--eeeee,

A bunch of you folks didn't like my statement. Hmmmmm. First of all, everyone loves to say that Comair/ASA are "holding up" Delta and they don't deserve a pay cut--even though their peers are making half and doing the same job. (That is what we hear about UAL and AA) FDJ2 posted the exact comments from Michele Burns (our CFO---and yours) which stated at a CVG meeting that Delta pays for most of your expenses--and without that you would NOT be as profitable. Also, since a lot of your RJs are on very popular routes (once flown by mainline)---of course a lot of them are profitable. But, Delta would be even more profitable if they actually put mainline aircraft on those same routes and flew them more often---but no--marketing is screwed up and even Grinstein admitted that at the DFW meeting. (He also doesn't really like RJs--like your buddy Fred Reid)

Skiddriver,

I flew at the commuters (pre-regional days) and I bet I made 1/4th the money you make now--flying a brasilia 7 legs a day too. I know what you mean when you don't have a lot of money. Guess what? I don't have a boat. Yes, I make a great wage, and I hope you do too someday, but just because you are at a different stage in your carreer--doesn't mean that there aren't ups and downs for you too. Also, if Delta goes into BK--the pensions are safe--unless they file a termination notice and that could take 90 days. The judge has to go over everything and make the determination. Notice only USAir guys lost their pensions (most of those guys still flying had a chance to bail, but unfortunately did not)---and the UAL guys still have theirs. We have recently gotten a lot from Dalpa concerning the pensions and a lot of our guys feel a lot more comfortable about the situation. In other words, it can't just be swiped away from them.


RJCAP,

First of all, Grinstein has scaled back on his Chap 11 talk because he cannot just talk that way and manipulate the stock price.(thanks to the Martha Stewart stuff) He has to be careful what he says. Yes, we had a down grade from the S&P---but what the articles didn't say and Delta neglected to say was that the S&P also said that the current down grade is STABLE (leaving 6 more below it) and that Delta had many good things going for it---including one union, strong INTL travel this Summer, and ADEQUATE cash reserves. We have $2.8 billion in cash, and have had a better Spring and probably a great Summer. What does that mean? We aren't teetering on the verge YET--we have some time. Also, I talked with a high level MEC member today in ATL and he said that Delta would get HUGE pressure from GE Capital, Morgan Stanley, and almost every other large investor if they did not negotiate eventually and just "took us into bankruptcy." There would be a lot of pi$$ed off people then, and the judge and bankers would be in charge. (not Grinstein) In other words, there will probably be some negotating eventually, and we all can't wait to hear Grinstein's big plans when the strategic review is over in early July. Guess what? If we are to VOTE on a pay cut---there better be something in it for us (notice he said he wanted larger planes to fight the LCCs and lower our CASM---in the DFW speech)---and I doubt there will be much about DCI getting 100 seaters or many more RJs either. I also doubt our guys would vote for more furloughs etc---there would have to be recalls. So---Grinstein will have the pressure on too from the major investors---and we are ready to have SERIOUS negotiations......


Otto,

There is nothing gauranteed in this business---just ask our 1060 furloughs. They have taken a 100% pay cut. I bet a lot of them have sold their homes and are living on vapors....And, oh yeah--Comair won't help them out....Thanks.....


Black Coffee,

Maybe you haven't been on here long, but I have said a lot and personally done a lot to help our furloughs. I never said "you guys need to give 40% of your wages...etc" I have only said that EVERYONE should give something (the amount is up to them) and that Delta will not give anything extra to Comair until they get their costs down. (just like us---we won't get anything either, but we are atleast willing to sit down and negotiate--where are they?) I know what it is like to get paid squat and work really hard---but that doesn't mean you shouldn't have to give something ---especially when you have a stake in all of this too. everyone likes to compare us to UAL and AA---and the comparison to Mesa and Chataqua in respect to wages is the same thing management is asking for. I am just bringing it out in the open----like it or not. I don't want you guys to take those huge cuts--but Wall Street and management do. The pressure is on---for all of us.


ASARJFO,

I know it is tough, and I didn't make over $40,000 a year until I was in my SECOND year with Delta. (My first year hourly pay on the 727FE and Express 737 was near $30 an hour) I am not in charge of that, and I keep saying that the company will try to squeeze you until you do give up something. I of course believe that we at mainline (the pilots) will take the lion's share of the cuts, and I am ok with that. But to hide and say that you guys are profitable (thanks to Delta paying for most of your expenses--from the CFO's mouth) and you don't deserve it---is not looking at the whole picture. I am sure we will get a huge cut---but they will come after you next---and eventually they will win. I don't want you to take huge cuts---but there will be something that you will give up to get those extra jets and even get a new contract. Sorry.

bvt1151,

The company would be even MORE profitable with pay cuts from you---and THEY KNOW THAT. They will press you, and even if they don't get it now---you will not grow and they will give future relief with the 70 deaters to other carriers. You will eventually feel it.

ATRCA,

Everyone will have to give up something. Grinstein said that only "non-contract" employees would keep the same rates----so that means he wants to go after ALL of the unions (you and me) and show the others how stupid it was for us to unionize. But, I assure you that we at mainline will take larger cuts than you.


Bye Bye--General Lee

 

[XRMEFLYER]

Delta would be even more profitable if they actually put mainline aircraft on those same routes and flew them more often---but no--marketing is screwed up

Brilliant assessment of the situation. Too bad you aren't running the show then all would be well!

We have recently gotten a lot from Dalpa concerning the pensions and a lot of our guys feel a lot more comfortable about the situation.

Well that is a relief isn't it? They say that all is well so you should feel all warm and fuzzy now!

And, oh yeah--Comair won't help them out....Thanks.....

Not up to Comair, up to Delta. Thank them!

EVERYONE should give something

Not going to happen!

I assure you that we at mainline will take larger cuts than you.

What a call Swami! Something versus nothing makes that a certainty. You may have a future in Vegas handicapping football.

but there will be something that you will give up to get those extra jets and even get a new contract. Sorry.

Your sympathy is overwhelming! Don't be sorry for us smart guy you have enough already to be sorry for what with all of the 1060 of your closest friends being out of work and all!

AMF

 

[Nindiri]

Interesting how when times were good the Delta guys on the National boards were constantly reminding everyone that Delta and Comair/ASA were separate companies and should take care of their own problems, but now they suddenly have decided that they're all in this together and that the DCI guys should take a share of any concessions to help save Delta.

I'm not saying that DCI shouldn't help, I just think the Delta pilots' change of heart about "the Delta family including DCI" a bit hypocritical.

 

[skiddriver]

Gen L

First, thanks for the condescension, but if I'm in a "different stage in [my] carreer[sic]" it's because I'm closer to the mandatory retirement age than you are. I finished voluntarily paying my dues when I was pulling down $800 a month as a 2ndLt 24 years ago.

It's not up the Delta mainline pilots to decide who gives and who doesn't, and DALPA has no business negotiating my pay with Delta. As you've pointed out many times, we work for Comair. MYOB and I'll mind mine, unless you have something more substantive than offering our pilot group a preferred interview sometime after I hit 60.

 

[AFELLOWAVIATOR]

here is a logical reason. Bottom line, ASA and CMR have no scope. Delta has demonstrated they will give flying to one of the lower cost regionals. Right now its the growth aircraft, but there is nothing stopping them from giving them your aircraft. It sucks, but thats the way it is.

Here we go again. "GROWTH AIRCRAFT" Another pilot falling for mgt.'s retoric. Is it not funny how this new term came to be. The 170 aircraft we now have were never called "grwth aircraft" by mgt. It was when they decidied to try and trick us out of concessions that they became "growth aircraft".

We at Comair have heard it all. During the strike we saw mgt.s game first hand and learned a lot.

If the ASA pilots had fallen for it, they would be out of section six negotiations now, had the same amount of orders and never known they were dupped.

Lets all not let their little smoke and mirrors game fog reality. Chitaco's 13 airframes were planned years ago. The 25 for ASA and 7 for Skywhore were planned years ago.

If they are to go to the lowest bidder, Skywhore and Mesa would of gotten all of them. Heck, Skywhore whores out 70 seat flying for less than we fly the 50 seater. They should be doing ALL of our 70 seat flying, right?

 

[General Lee]

Looks like I struck a nerve---more than once. Oh well.

XRMEFlyer,

You really are a goof--aren't you? But hey, you sure are sure that you guys will never give up pay. Ok---whatever......just watch chief...either you will voluntarily---or some day if we go Chap 11 you will via the judge. And everyone on this board has said, "This hiring rule has been COMAIR's rule for six decades.."(?)..... Sounds like Comair isn't really going out of it's way to help our furloughs....Hmmmm. Sounds like they have too many 300 hour wonders from the DCI Academy streaming in to help our furloughs....Enjoy!


Skiddrivr,

I personally don't care if this is your last or first stage in your carreer. If you are at Comair---I can see why you don't want pay cuts, and might want larger aircraft coming your way. Dalpa is not negotiating your pay---DELTA wants lower pay--and will show you with no growth. You guys better hope we actually get some negotiating done here or you WILL lose pay--via the judge. Your current wages will be reduced to your peers---MESA. I would change your attitude really quick--get behind us giving 15-20%--or else you will be giving 30% yourselves....Truth hurts.

Nindiri,

All I remember during good times was the mantra "Date of hire...Date of hire.." for a possible seniority merger between companies. Why wouldn't our guys have wanted a staple? They did---but you guys wanted "it all." Your fault. Truth hurts.

Bye Bye--General Lee

 

[GogglesPisano]

Comair-Enjoy the stagnation.........and your award winning contract!

Some of us don't want to spend the rest of our lives working at some regional. Fact is I'll probably be a captain at Jblu, or SWA by the time some of your second year FO's upgrade.

Enjoy it though..............

Another dreamer willing to work for peanuts for a job which (statistically) will never happen for him.

 

[Nindiri]

All I remember during good times was the mantra "Date of hire...Date of hire.." for a possible seniority merger between companies.

And you reminded them (Comair) that they were a separate company and that they were not Delta. Now when it's convenient for you, you've changed your mind.

 

[WmuBronco]

embraerdriver=just another loose whore

 

[XRMEFLYER]

Generally,

Looks like I struck a nerve---more than once. Oh well.

Yeah, oh well is right. Just can't help being yourself can you?

You really are a goof--aren't you?

Come on hero you can do better than that!

you sure are sure that you guys will never give up pay. Ok---whatever......just watch chief...either you will voluntarily---or some day if we go Chap 11 you will via the judge.

I will take my chances with the judge, but it will NOT happen voluntarily.

This hiring rule has been COMAIR's rule for six decades.."(?)..... Sounds like Comair isn't really going out of it's way to help our furloughs....Hmmmm.

Six decades huh? Your ignorance of the situation aside, it was and continues to be a Delta decision. And as for the 300 hour wonders, I've flown with several of them and several furloughs in the past few years and without question the low timers were better prepared, more motivated squared away individuals on the whole. It comes down to attitude and they have the right one while some (certainly not all) of their more experienced colleagues feel that the world owes them a living. You can relate to that right?

You guys better hope we actually get some negotiating done here or you WILL lose pay--via the judge. Your current wages will be reduced to your peers---MESA. I would change your attitude really quick--get behind us giving 15-20%--or else you will be giving 30% yourselves....Truth hurts.

First, Mesa is not so far behind us that we would even notice the difference can you say the same? Doesn't matter, it will not be given away. The vast majority of us have a whole heck of a lot less to lose in this than you girls do. The "300 hour wonders" are for the most part young they would do just fine in the long run, and there are plenty of us who can still wear our nations uniform and participate in the festivities overseas for more than what we are currently earning. What is the average mainline guy's backup plan for pulling down 150-250k a year?

but you guys wanted "it all." Your fault.

Actually that didn't work out too badly for us did it? So if it makes you feel any better, yeah My bad!