Article: Comair not a 'give-up' airline

[embraerdriver]

Comair-Enjoy the stagnation.........and your award winning contract!

Some of us don't want to spend the rest of our lives working at some regional. Fact is I'll probably be a captain at Jblu, or SWA by the time some of your second year FO's upgrade.

Enjoy it though..............

 

[nimtz]

Comair-Enjoy the stagnation.........and your award winning contract!

Some of us don't want to spend the rest of our lives working at some regional. Fact is I'll probably be a captain at Jblu, or SWA by the time some of your second year FO's upgrade.

Enjoy it though..............

Enjoy looking like an @ss in a few years when you're still at the regional and still making jack-sh!t wages. LCC will never REPEAT never hire like the majors did in the 90's. I'm sure your one year of EMB PIC time will match-up well against the thousands of furloughees, guys just out of the military, and many years Regional Captains who will all be going after the same job as you.

But seriously as long as you are logging that valuable PIC time, who cares about the paycheck, because you're off to the majors! Do the work of the mainline pilot for 1/4 the salary? Well that's what I gotta do to get to the majors! Management is proud to have you're type around who is to stupid to see that the market has changed. No wonder CHQ's contract blows so much!

 

[Paul R. Smith]

Comair..

Comair pilots, you rock.

Cheers guys.

 

[General Lee]

I don't remember ever saying that I thought Comair/ASA guys should give SIMILAR wage cuts---I just stated that Delta WILL WANT cuts from you (due to the comaprative costs of your PEERS)--and that everyone should share in cuts--but that amount is up to the employees. I would assume that we---mainline pilots---would take the lion's share of the cuts. Grinstein likes to say that everyone else is at "industry standard" rates---even though he is neglecting to say that most of our employees (not Comair/ASA pilots) on the ground at least have well over 15 years with the company ---and their rates aren't even close to all of the new hires at all of the upstarts.....Not even close---but he doesn't want any more unions on the property--so he is willing to over look that.... And, if we are going to get compared to UAL and AA wages (our peers....), then Comair and ASA should be compared to their peers---Mesa and Chataqua..... Overall, I think one group shouldn't be targeted---everyone should give in something---since we all have a stake in this. That amount will be left up to the individual groups.....

Bye Bye---General Lee

 

[ATRCA]

Yeah Ok,

I should give up part of my $29,000 yr 5th yr FO pay because a DAL guy who makes 180k a yr has to give something up?

Get real. I support the DAL guys and I applaud thier effort. But their pay is FAR ahead of the rest of the industry. The pay at the "Regionals" is piss poor to begin with and their is no room for cuts.

BTW, if the "Regional" pilots of the world agreed to pay cuts do you think that would benefit DALPA and make SJ's less attractive as replacements for larger guage aircraft.

I think your goin about this all wrong General. The greater the pay at the regional level the less attractive the aircraft are in terms of their already hight operating cost.

 

[Heavy Set]

Comair pilots should be paid MESA rates

How much more do Comair pilots get paid vs. their MESA peers?

Shouldn't there be more parity given that both fly relatively the same equipment? Why shouldn't Comair pilots be paid at MESA levels? Because they negotiated better... What's the difference between the Comair vs. MESA and the Delta vs. AMR argument?

The answer: not much difference.

 

[bvt1151]

Comair's rates still allow the company to be profitable.

Delta's however...

 

[XRMEFLYER]

BTW, if the "Regional" pilots of the world agreed to pay cuts do you think that would benefit DALPA and make SJ's less attractive as replacements for larger guage aircraft.

I think your goin about this all wrong General. The greater the pay at the regional level the less attractive the aircraft are in terms of their already hight operating cost.

Truer words were never spoken er.. written! Unfortunately people like generally are more concerned with having someone to share in their misery than they are in making the smart play on this one.
It has been said before, but here is as good a place as any to repeat with EMPHASIS so pay attention because your country club lifestyle you are so fond of flaunting may well depend upon you and your minions understanding the following:

I WILL NOT, REPEAT NOT, TAKE ONE CENT OF A PAY CUT EVEN IF IT HAIR LIPS EVERY GAUD DAM ONE OF YOU. I WILL BURN THIS MUTHERFUQER DOWN FIRST!

Now, if you doubt my resolve or more importantly, doubt our resolve as a group on this one and are willing to risk everything because you don't think it is fair ( juvenile concept anyway - fairness ) that you take a pay cut and we don't, then hide and watch!

AMF

 

[asarjfo]

I don't remember ever saying that I thought Comair/ASA guys should give SIMILAR wage cuts---I just stated that Delta WILL WANT cuts from you (due to the comaprative costs of your PEERS)--and that everyone should share in cuts--but that amount is up to the employees. I would assume that we---mainline pilots---would take the lion's share of the cuts. Grinstein likes to say that everyone else is at "industry standard" rates---even though he is neglecting to say that most of our employees (not Comair/ASA pilots) on the ground at least have well over 15 years with the company ---and their rates aren't even close to all of the new hires at all of the upstarts.....Not even close---but he doesn't want any more unions on the property--so he is willing to over look that.... And, if we are going to get compared to UAL and AA wages (our peers....), then Comair and ASA should be compared to their peers---Mesa and Chataqua..... Overall, I think one group shouldn't be targeted---everyone should give in something---since we all have a stake in this. That amount will be left up to the individual groups.....

Bye Bye---General Lee

General,

I usually agree with most of your posts, but this just blows me away. I don't see how you think cutting our pay would help matters. We (ASA/Comair) are currently making money. As an FO on 4th year pay, I made approx $37 k last year. How much would you like me to give up? Would you like me to sell one of my cars and ride my bike to the airport?

ASA and our "peer" companies (ie regionals) are making money. I defy you to come up with a LOGICAL reason why we should give up one red cent.

 

[michael707767]

General,

I usually agree with most of your posts, but this just blows me away. I don't see how you think cutting our pay would help matters. We (ASA/Comair) are currently making money. As an FO on 4th year pay, I made approx $37 k last year. How much would you like me to give up? Would you like me to sell one of my cars and ride my bike to the airport?

ASA and our "peer" companies (ie regionals) are making money. I defy you to come up with a LOGICAL reason why we should give up one red cent.

here is a logical reason. Bottom line, ASA and CMR have no scope. Delta has demonstrated they will give flying to one of the lower cost regionals. Right now its the growth aircraft, but there is nothing stopping them from giving them your aircraft. It sucks, but thats the way it is.

 

[RSRVWINDSURFR]

Embraerdriver

Dude,

Your selfish ignorance would be comical if it wasn't a huge reason regional pilots get paid the way we do.

People like you are the ones who sell out the regional pilot group as a whole. You'll do/sign ANYTHING you can to get those shiny new airplanes on property--undercutting other airlines with employees who actually have standards.

You say you don't care because you'll be off at a major-and it will be someone else's problem then. PATHETIC.

It's only about you, isn't it? You'd fit in real well with all of the '83 hires at CAL.

Comair, I applaud you guys for standing up for what is right. Your pilot group's unwavering unity is impressive.

 

[BlackCoffee]

The general finally starts showing his true colors.

 

[Otto]

Gee, if only my Delta buddies would get this support instead of being vilified for standing their ground too...

If I take a pay cut, my wife has to get a job just to pay the mortgage. If DAL guys take a pay cut, they have to sell their boat. That's the difference.

 

[rjcap]

Mainline is looking at a Chapter 11 filing that will devastate the pilot contract and the retirment fund.

This all boils down to a game of chicken. Either Grinstein or the pilot group will blink first. The downside is that if it goes to far and chap 11 is filed the pilots will take the worst beating and not Grinstein.

Ultimately the decision will be made by the 55% of the pilots who are most senior. Their concern for their pension accounts will be the driving force. ASA and Comair and the rest of DCI are not even in this battle.

 

[skiddriver]

If Delta Inc goes into BK, mainline pilots stand to lose their retirement fund. I don't have one to lose.

Delta pay for a guy two years out of the military is two times what mine is (and I'm two years out of the military). After another year, it's three times my pay.

Those who have the most to lose (gain) need to give the most. So Delta sells us. Who loses in that deal? Go ahead Gen. L., get G to put us on the block.

Comair pay is okay. Delta pay is great. Cutting Delta pay makes it great(-). Cutting my pay makes it unliveable. There is a reason that our tax code is progressive. If you think you'll get a "let's all pitch in" attitude from us, so that your retirement fund can remain untouched, think twice. Come up with some substantial reason to help out, other than maintaining your pay and benefits, then maybe we can talk.

Just remember, disregarding the huge difference in additional expense to mother D for the mainline pilots benefits, retirements, and work rules - Delta mainline annual pilot payroll is over $1B, Comair's pilot payroll is in the vicinity of $100M. Where are the real savings to be found?

 

[General Lee]

Well Gollll--eeeee,

A bunch of you folks didn't like my statement. Hmmmmm. First of all, everyone loves to say that Comair/ASA are "holding up" Delta and they don't deserve a pay cut--even though their peers are making half and doing the same job. (That is what we hear about UAL and AA) FDJ2 posted the exact comments from Michele Burns (our CFO---and yours) which stated at a CVG meeting that Delta pays for most of your expenses--and without that you would NOT be as profitable. Also, since a lot of your RJs are on very popular routes (once flown by mainline)---of course a lot of them are profitable. But, Delta would be even more profitable if they actually put mainline aircraft on those same routes and flew them more often---but no--marketing is screwed up and even Grinstein admitted that at the DFW meeting. (He also doesn't really like RJs--like your buddy Fred Reid)

Skiddriver,

I flew at the commuters (pre-regional days) and I bet I made 1/4th the money you make now--flying a brasilia 7 legs a day too. I know what you mean when you don't have a lot of money. Guess what? I don't have a boat. Yes, I make a great wage, and I hope you do too someday, but just because you are at a different stage in your carreer--doesn't mean that there aren't ups and downs for you too. Also, if Delta goes into BK--the pensions are safe--unless they file a termination notice and that could take 90 days. The judge has to go over everything and make the determination. Notice only USAir guys lost their pensions (most of those guys still flying had a chance to bail, but unfortunately did not)---and the UAL guys still have theirs. We have recently gotten a lot from Dalpa concerning the pensions and a lot of our guys feel a lot more comfortable about the situation. In other words, it can't just be swiped away from them.


RJCAP,

First of all, Grinstein has scaled back on his Chap 11 talk because he cannot just talk that way and manipulate the stock price.(thanks to the Martha Stewart stuff) He has to be careful what he says. Yes, we had a down grade from the S&P---but what the articles didn't say and Delta neglected to say was that the S&P also said that the current down grade is STABLE (leaving 6 more below it) and that Delta had many good things going for it---including one union, strong INTL travel this Summer, and ADEQUATE cash reserves. We have $2.8 billion in cash, and have had a better Spring and probably a great Summer. What does that mean? We aren't teetering on the verge YET--we have some time. Also, I talked with a high level MEC member today in ATL and he said that Delta would get HUGE pressure from GE Capital, Morgan Stanley, and almost every other large investor if they did not negotiate eventually and just "took us into bankruptcy." There would be a lot of pi$$ed off people then, and the judge and bankers would be in charge. (not Grinstein) In other words, there will probably be some negotating eventually, and we all can't wait to hear Grinstein's big plans when the strategic review is over in early July. Guess what? If we are to VOTE on a pay cut---there better be something in it for us (notice he said he wanted larger planes to fight the LCCs and lower our CASM---in the DFW speech)---and I doubt there will be much about DCI getting 100 seaters or many more RJs either. I also doubt our guys would vote for more furloughs etc---there would have to be recalls. So---Grinstein will have the pressure on too from the major investors---and we are ready to have SERIOUS negotiations......


Otto,

There is nothing gauranteed in this business---just ask our 1060 furloughs. They have taken a 100% pay cut. I bet a lot of them have sold their homes and are living on vapors....And, oh yeah--Comair won't help them out....Thanks.....


Black Coffee,

Maybe you haven't been on here long, but I have said a lot and personally done a lot to help our furloughs. I never said "you guys need to give 40% of your wages...etc" I have only said that EVERYONE should give something (the amount is up to them) and that Delta will not give anything extra to Comair until they get their costs down. (just like us---we won't get anything either, but we are atleast willing to sit down and negotiate--where are they?) I know what it is like to get paid squat and work really hard---but that doesn't mean you shouldn't have to give something ---especially when you have a stake in all of this too. everyone likes to compare us to UAL and AA---and the comparison to Mesa and Chataqua in respect to wages is the same thing management is asking for. I am just bringing it out in the open----like it or not. I don't want you guys to take those huge cuts--but Wall Street and management do. The pressure is on---for all of us.


ASARJFO,

I know it is tough, and I didn't make over $40,000 a year until I was in my SECOND year with Delta. (My first year hourly pay on the 727FE and Express 737 was near $30 an hour) I am not in charge of that, and I keep saying that the company will try to squeeze you until you do give up something. I of course believe that we at mainline (the pilots) will take the lion's share of the cuts, and I am ok with that. But to hide and say that you guys are profitable (thanks to Delta paying for most of your expenses--from the CFO's mouth) and you don't deserve it---is not looking at the whole picture. I am sure we will get a huge cut---but they will come after you next---and eventually they will win. I don't want you to take huge cuts---but there will be something that you will give up to get those extra jets and even get a new contract. Sorry.

bvt1151,

The company would be even MORE profitable with pay cuts from you---and THEY KNOW THAT. They will press you, and even if they don't get it now---you will not grow and they will give future relief with the 70 deaters to other carriers. You will eventually feel it.

ATRCA,

Everyone will have to give up something. Grinstein said that only "non-contract" employees would keep the same rates----so that means he wants to go after ALL of the unions (you and me) and show the others how stupid it was for us to unionize. But, I assure you that we at mainline will take larger cuts than you.


Bye Bye--General Lee

 

[XRMEFLYER]

Delta would be even more profitable if they actually put mainline aircraft on those same routes and flew them more often---but no--marketing is screwed up

Brilliant assessment of the situation. Too bad you aren't running the show then all would be well!

We have recently gotten a lot from Dalpa concerning the pensions and a lot of our guys feel a lot more comfortable about the situation.

Well that is a relief isn't it? They say that all is well so you should feel all warm and fuzzy now!

And, oh yeah--Comair won't help them out....Thanks.....

Not up to Comair, up to Delta. Thank them!

EVERYONE should give something

Not going to happen!

I assure you that we at mainline will take larger cuts than you.

What a call Swami! Something versus nothing makes that a certainty. You may have a future in Vegas handicapping football.

but there will be something that you will give up to get those extra jets and even get a new contract. Sorry.

Your sympathy is overwhelming! Don't be sorry for us smart guy you have enough already to be sorry for what with all of the 1060 of your closest friends being out of work and all!

AMF

 

[Nindiri]

Interesting how when times were good the Delta guys on the National boards were constantly reminding everyone that Delta and Comair/ASA were separate companies and should take care of their own problems, but now they suddenly have decided that they're all in this together and that the DCI guys should take a share of any concessions to help save Delta.

I'm not saying that DCI shouldn't help, I just think the Delta pilots' change of heart about "the Delta family including DCI" a bit hypocritical.

 

[skiddriver]

Gen L

First, thanks for the condescension, but if I'm in a "different stage in [my] carreer[sic]" it's because I'm closer to the mandatory retirement age than you are. I finished voluntarily paying my dues when I was pulling down $800 a month as a 2ndLt 24 years ago.

It's not up the Delta mainline pilots to decide who gives and who doesn't, and DALPA has no business negotiating my pay with Delta. As you've pointed out many times, we work for Comair. MYOB and I'll mind mine, unless you have something more substantive than offering our pilot group a preferred interview sometime after I hit 60.

 

[AFELLOWAVIATOR]

here is a logical reason. Bottom line, ASA and CMR have no scope. Delta has demonstrated they will give flying to one of the lower cost regionals. Right now its the growth aircraft, but there is nothing stopping them from giving them your aircraft. It sucks, but thats the way it is.

Here we go again. "GROWTH AIRCRAFT" Another pilot falling for mgt.'s retoric. Is it not funny how this new term came to be. The 170 aircraft we now have were never called "grwth aircraft" by mgt. It was when they decidied to try and trick us out of concessions that they became "growth aircraft".

We at Comair have heard it all. During the strike we saw mgt.s game first hand and learned a lot.

If the ASA pilots had fallen for it, they would be out of section six negotiations now, had the same amount of orders and never known they were dupped.

Lets all not let their little smoke and mirrors game fog reality. Chitaco's 13 airframes were planned years ago. The 25 for ASA and 7 for Skywhore were planned years ago.

If they are to go to the lowest bidder, Skywhore and Mesa would of gotten all of them. Heck, Skywhore whores out 70 seat flying for less than we fly the 50 seater. They should be doing ALL of our 70 seat flying, right?