Arrival and ILS question

[mwmav8r01]

2 Questions today going into PHL can someone help. On the bunts arrival there is a published hold there is a bolded 4NM inside the hold. Is this number the leg length.

Next was on the ILS to 26 we were cleared the ILS on a 15 or so mile final when is it OK to goto 2000 ft the MANDATORY crossing altitude?


Thanks in advance.

Matt

 

[Yellow Snow]

I'm not certain but I think it means one minute with a maximum of four miles. There must be something out there restricting the available space.

 

[FracCapt]

2 Questions today going into PHL can someone help. On the bunts arrival there is a published hold there is a bolded 4NM inside the hold. Is this number the leg length.

Yes.

Next was on the ILS to 26 we were cleared the ILS on a 15 or so mile final when is it OK to goto 2000 ft the MANDATORY crossing altitude?

Look at the top view of the approach. It shows MANDATORY 2000' at GS intercept, but it also shows 2000' all the way from HOLEY. HOLEY is just over 19DME. If you were 15DME, and cleared for the approach, you could have descended to 2000' immediately....but MUST do it before GS intercept(or reaching ESKOE if on the localizer only approach).


Thanks in advance.

Matt[/QUOTE]

 

[avbug]

Question one, yes, the four mile notation is leg length for the hold.


Question two, when cleared to descend after HOLEY (or any time cleared to do so prior, during radar vectors), or if merely cleared for the approach, at FOSOM. HOLEY is the IAF, and descent, if authorized, may be commenced any time inside the IAF if cleared for the aproach. You must be at the mandatory altitude after FOSUM.

 

[tarp]

Ques #1 - Yes. It is the leg length of the hold. In NOS, they tell you that they want a 210KIAS speed limit at 8000 (not 230). 210 divided by 60(seconds) or one minute = 3.5miles. Huh, how about that!

Ques #2 - You're an ERJ FO. There are two altitudes on the chart. The MSA at 2600 and those written on the "published segments of the approach" - does that ring any bells? 15 miles out on the extended course line of the approach (i.e. 263 course) and needle centered sounds to me that you are established on a published segment. In fact you were probably right inside that little "x" intersection between HOLEY and FOSOM. Down to 2000 before you get to FOSOM where it turns into a mandatory.

Philly isn't going to let you get creative on the approach there, but let's say some other facility would - you are 15 miles from FOSOM at 4000 and the controller says "fly heading 240 and you are cleared for the ILS 26 approach". You can either stay at 4000 until on the segment or descend down to 2600 (your MSA). But watch yourself - the MSA is only good within 25 miles of the OOD VOR.

Oh and by the way, that was a lousy and lazy controller - the correct phrase would be "Chatauqua One-five-four-two, fly heading 240, intercept the localizer, maintain 3000 until established, cleared for the ILS 26 Approach". It makes it so much easier when they just tell us "exactly" what to do.

 

[SDCFI]

Philly isn't going to let you get creative on the approach there, but let's say some other facility would - you are 15 miles from FOSOM at 4000 and the controller says "fly heading 240 and you are cleared for the ILS 26 approach". You can either stay at 4000 until on the segment or descend down to 2600 (your MSA). But watch yourself - the MSA is only good within 25 miles of the OOD VOR.

Not sure I agree with your policework there tarp. According to the Pilot/Controller Glossary MSA's are for emergency use only. Probably because they don't guarantee nav reception, but in any case ATC won't be expecting a descent unless you're on a published segment I would think.

 

[PIO]

Why couldn't you get on glide slope above 2000 and fly it all the way to GS intercept point?

 

[Workin'Stiff]

Yeah, I agree. It's called minimum safe altitude for a reason. It doesn't imply regular use on an instrument approach.

 

[gern_blanston]

Oh and by the way, that was a lousy and lazy controller - the correct phrase would be "Chatauqua One-five-four-two, fly heading 240, intercept the localizer, maintain 3000 until established, cleared for the ILS 26 Approach". It makes it so much easier when they just tell us "exactly" what to do.

Huh? The way I read the post, he was already on the final approach course with no need for a vector. If you're on the final approach course AND you're cleared for the approach, you can descend within the published limitations of the approach, like FracCapt said.
No need for 'em to 'just tell us 'exactly' what to do.'

 

[FracCapt]

Why couldn't you get on glide slope above 2000 and fly it all the way to GS intercept point?

Take a look at the approach plate for the approach in question.

http://204.108.4.16/d-tpp/0505/00320I26.PDF

It specifies a MANDATORY 2000' at GS intercept. If it didn't have the mandatory, you could just join it at your present altitude and fly it down.