Arrival and ILS question

[mwmav8r01]

2 Questions today going into PHL can someone help. On the bunts arrival there is a published hold there is a bolded 4NM inside the hold. Is this number the leg length.

Next was on the ILS to 26 we were cleared the ILS on a 15 or so mile final when is it OK to goto 2000 ft the MANDATORY crossing altitude?


Thanks in advance.

Matt

 

[Yellow Snow]

I'm not certain but I think it means one minute with a maximum of four miles. There must be something out there restricting the available space.

 

[FracCapt]

2 Questions today going into PHL can someone help. On the bunts arrival there is a published hold there is a bolded 4NM inside the hold. Is this number the leg length.

Yes.

Next was on the ILS to 26 we were cleared the ILS on a 15 or so mile final when is it OK to goto 2000 ft the MANDATORY crossing altitude?

Look at the top view of the approach. It shows MANDATORY 2000' at GS intercept, but it also shows 2000' all the way from HOLEY. HOLEY is just over 19DME. If you were 15DME, and cleared for the approach, you could have descended to 2000' immediately....but MUST do it before GS intercept(or reaching ESKOE if on the localizer only approach).


Thanks in advance.

Matt[/QUOTE]

 

[avbug]

Question one, yes, the four mile notation is leg length for the hold.


Question two, when cleared to descend after HOLEY (or any time cleared to do so prior, during radar vectors), or if merely cleared for the approach, at FOSOM. HOLEY is the IAF, and descent, if authorized, may be commenced any time inside the IAF if cleared for the aproach. You must be at the mandatory altitude after FOSUM.

 

[tarp]

Ques #1 - Yes. It is the leg length of the hold. In NOS, they tell you that they want a 210KIAS speed limit at 8000 (not 230). 210 divided by 60(seconds) or one minute = 3.5miles. Huh, how about that!

Ques #2 - You're an ERJ FO. There are two altitudes on the chart. The MSA at 2600 and those written on the "published segments of the approach" - does that ring any bells? 15 miles out on the extended course line of the approach (i.e. 263 course) and needle centered sounds to me that you are established on a published segment. In fact you were probably right inside that little "x" intersection between HOLEY and FOSOM. Down to 2000 before you get to FOSOM where it turns into a mandatory.

Philly isn't going to let you get creative on the approach there, but let's say some other facility would - you are 15 miles from FOSOM at 4000 and the controller says "fly heading 240 and you are cleared for the ILS 26 approach". You can either stay at 4000 until on the segment or descend down to 2600 (your MSA). But watch yourself - the MSA is only good within 25 miles of the OOD VOR.

Oh and by the way, that was a lousy and lazy controller - the correct phrase would be "Chatauqua One-five-four-two, fly heading 240, intercept the localizer, maintain 3000 until established, cleared for the ILS 26 Approach". It makes it so much easier when they just tell us "exactly" what to do.

 

[SDCFI]

Philly isn't going to let you get creative on the approach there, but let's say some other facility would - you are 15 miles from FOSOM at 4000 and the controller says "fly heading 240 and you are cleared for the ILS 26 approach". You can either stay at 4000 until on the segment or descend down to 2600 (your MSA). But watch yourself - the MSA is only good within 25 miles of the OOD VOR.

Not sure I agree with your policework there tarp. According to the Pilot/Controller Glossary MSA's are for emergency use only. Probably because they don't guarantee nav reception, but in any case ATC won't be expecting a descent unless you're on a published segment I would think.

 

[PIO]

Why couldn't you get on glide slope above 2000 and fly it all the way to GS intercept point?

 

[Workin'Stiff]

Yeah, I agree. It's called minimum safe altitude for a reason. It doesn't imply regular use on an instrument approach.

 

[gern_blanston]

Oh and by the way, that was a lousy and lazy controller - the correct phrase would be "Chatauqua One-five-four-two, fly heading 240, intercept the localizer, maintain 3000 until established, cleared for the ILS 26 Approach". It makes it so much easier when they just tell us "exactly" what to do.

Huh? The way I read the post, he was already on the final approach course with no need for a vector. If you're on the final approach course AND you're cleared for the approach, you can descend within the published limitations of the approach, like FracCapt said.
No need for 'em to 'just tell us 'exactly' what to do.'

 

[FracCapt]

Why couldn't you get on glide slope above 2000 and fly it all the way to GS intercept point?

Take a look at the approach plate for the approach in question.

http://204.108.4.16/d-tpp/0505/00320I26.PDF

It specifies a MANDATORY 2000' at GS intercept. If it didn't have the mandatory, you could just join it at your present altitude and fly it down.

 

[Checks]

oopps

 

[TonyC]

Take a look at the approach plate for the approach in question.

http://204.108.4.16/d-tpp/0505/00320I26.PDF

It specifies a MANDATORY 2000' at GS intercept. If it didn't have the mandatory, you could just join it at your present altitude and fly it down.

Thaks for posting the link.

I'm more accustomed to using Jepps theses days, so I might be off here, but...



In the profile view, I see 2000 in large font three times. On the far left, and appearing to apply to the crossing at ESKOE, the final approach fix. It has a line drawn above and below it. If I recall correctly, that means it is a mandatory altitude. I would interpret that to mean I must cross ESKOE AT 2000 feet. In smaller font directly above the Maltese cross at Eskoe is the Glideslope crossing altitude at ESKOE - - again, 2000. That indicates to me that the glideslope crosses ESKOE at exactly 2,000 feet.

How'm I doin' so far?


The second large font 2000 to which I draw your attention is the one just to the right of FOSOM, an intermediate fix on the approach. The 2000 to the right of that fix has a single line drawn underneath it. I believe that means the crossing altitude is a MINIMUM altitude. One must cross FOSOM at or above 2,000 feet.

Still OK?


Now, I draw your attention to the third large font 2000, the one in between the two previously discussed. It also has a line drawn beneath it, indicating it is a minimum altitude, an "At-or-above" altitude, and it has a lightning bolt-like arrow drawn pointing to the profile immediately prior to the Final Approach Fix, ESKOE. We've already established that we must cross ESKOE at 2,000 feet exactly, and we've established that we must cross FOSOM at or above 2,000 feet. To what point in space does this third restriction apply?

I submit that prior to the FAF, one can be above 2,000 feet, so long as he crosses the FAF AT 2,000'. I don't see the problem, then, in remaining at 3,000 feet while crossing FOSOM, intercepting the glideslope at 3,000 feet, follow the glideslope down to cross ESKOE at 2,000 feet, and so on.

It's not only possible but probable that I have based the thought process on a faulty premise. Perhaps one of those numbers applies to the ILS and one applies to the LOC procedure?


OK, so I got curious enough to dig out some old Jepps...

The Jepps plate for the ILS Rwy 26 says MANDATORY 2000' for the segment between FOSOM and ESKOE, and the "feather" doesn't begin until ESKOE. That makes it pretty clear how I'd be flying it - - descend to exactly 2,000' to intercept the glideslope. The altitude at FOSOM is "AT OR ABOVE" 2,000', so there's some latitude about crossing FOSOM.

An interesting twist in the saga arises when looking at the ILS PRM Rwy 26 (Simultaneous Close Parallel) approach. It's the same except the crossing altitude at FOSOM is MANDATORY 2000'. (The intermediate segment for the ILS Rwy 27L and the ILS PRM Rwy 27L are both "AT OR ABOVE" 3000'.)


Given the reference to the Jepps, then, I'd say you can't use the glideslope until you arrive at ESKOE at exactly 2,000'.


(Now, can somebody tell me what the multiple restrictions on the NOS plate mean?)




.

 

[EatSleepFly]

You have an "at or above" 2000' outside of FOSOM. The next 2000' left of that, is the one pointing to the maltese cross. That applies to the LOC-only approach, since no FAF is depicted on an ILS. That one is just telling you (albeit redundantly) that on the LOC-only approach, you've got to cross ESKOE at or above 2000'. The next one in is the MANDATORY 2000'. This applies to that 1.7 nm segment between FOSOM and ESKOE, meaning that you can't intercept the GS early, at say 3000 and "ride it down," you must fly that segment at 2000'. Above that one, you have the smaller 2000', telling you that GS intecept at ESKOE occurs at 2000'.

That's how I read it. I'm sure I've flown it before, but it's been awhile. Of course, I use Jepps, and if I had them handy, I might have a different opinion.

 

[PIO]

I just ran this approach past a couple of Stand/Eval guys. They say that you can intercept glideslope above 2000 and fly it all the way down as long as you cross ESKOE at 2000.

The at or above 2000 with the lightening bolt pointing at it is the glideslope intercept altitude. The hard altitude of 2000 is a crossing restriction at ESKOE.

 

[Checks]

.....

 

[DC8 Flyer]

Dusting off the rust here, bare with me.

The line under the 2000 implies a minimum, not mandatory but a minimum.

The 2000 with lines above and below imply mandatory. With this particular approach I'm betting it applies to a LOC only approach that you must cross ESKOE at 2000'. Why I couldn't tell ya, its Philly, no one knows why Philly does what they do.

If it was intended to make you intercept the glide slope absolutely at 2000' over ESKOE, there would be a 2000 with lines above and below between FOSOM and ESKOE, instead of the 2000 with the below line and the lightning bolt.

I could be wrong though, I will have to look at the Jepps when I get in the airplane tomorrow.

 

[mwmav8r01]

Thanks for all the responces. Except for those who are rude. However this is flight info i had to expect it. The reason i asked the question is because the captain i was flying with just said "fly the GS down from 4000" I didnt quite agree because of the mandatory, it was a VMC day so it wasnt a huge deal. I asked him if he would mind if i joined at 2000 he said that was fine. SO i am glad i did. I must have done it right.



Matt

 

[jumppilot]

I would be at FOLSOM at 2000ft. That is the mandatory altitude.

Pathetic.

 

[JeffSKDTW]

Thanks for all the responces. Except for those who are rude. However this is flight info i had to expect it. The reason i asked the question is because the captain i was flying with just said "fly the GS down from 4000" I didnt quite agree because of the mandatory, it was a VMC day so it wasnt a huge deal. I asked him if he would mind if i joined at 2000 he said that was fine. SO i am glad i did. I must have done it right.

The AIM is your friend.

Section 5-4-5

b. The method used to depict prescribed altitudes on instrument approach charts differs according to techniques employed by different chart publishers. Prescribed altitudes may be depicted in four different configurations: minimum, maximum, mandatory, and recommended. The U.S. Government distributes charts produced by National Imagery and Mapping Agency (NIMA) and FAA. Altitudes are depicted on these charts in the profile view with underscore, overscore, both or none to identify them as minimum, maximum, mandatory or recommended.​

1. Minimum altitude will be depicted with the altitude value underscored. Aircraft are required to maintain altitude at or above the depicted value, e.g., 3000.

2. Maximum altitude will be depicted with the altitude value overscored. Aircraft are required to maintain altitude at or below the depicted value, e.g., 4000. (note--there should be a line above 4000, but will not show up in this forum)

3. Mandatory altitude will be depicted with the altitude value both underscored and overscored. Aircraft are required to maintain altitude at the depicted value, e.g., 5000.

4. Recommended altitude will be depicted with no overscore or underscore. These altitudes are depicted for descent planning, e.g., 6000. (note--there are no lines here)

NOTE-

Pilots are cautioned to adhere to altitudes as prescribed because, in certain instances, they may be used as the basis for vertical separation of aircraft by ATC. When a depicted altitude is specified in the ATC clearance, that altitude becomes mandatory as defined above.




​

​

 

[EatSleepFly]

The AIM is your friend.

Not really in this case- it didn't do anything to answer the question.

Thanks anyways.

 

[falcon20driver]

Here's the chart
http://www.fltplan8.com/AppCharts/GIFCHARTS/00320I26_0001.gif

I don't remember ever seeing a mandatory altitude at the FAF on any other ILS chart, looks to me like 2000 is the minimum alt. outside FOSOM, and 2000 is the mandatory alt. inside FOSOM until glideslope intercept or ESCOE for the LOC approach. Going to do some reading and see if that's correct.

Edit: After looking at it again, I don't see why they would have the 2000 minimum altitude at glideslope intercept if 2000 was the manditory altitude, I think the 2000 manditory is only for the LOC approach.

 

[TIS]

This is why I HATE Gub'ment charts!

It's absolutely amazing to me that the official publication of this procedure could be so ambiguous! One look at a Jepp Chart tells the whole story. Since I can't post a referring link y'all are just gonna have to go look at a Jepp plate for this approach when you can.

In the profile section of a the Jepp plate what you see is that the segment between FOSOM and ESKOE has only one altitude associated with it - 2000'. It is labeled as mandatory. The answer is unambiguous and clear - the GSIA and the altitude to be maintained (mandatory) until GS intercept are both 2000'. End of story. It has nothing to do with whether you're on a localizer only approach or anything else. It is a per se requirement of ANY approach procedure that can be flown using the chart.

Most likely it serves to separate aircraft in the PHL terminal environment from aircraft in the terminal environment of some other nearby airport

I don't remember ever seeing a mandatory altitude at the FAF on any other ILS chart, looks to me like 2000 is the minimum alt. outside FOSOM, and 2000 is the mandatory alt. inside FOSOM until glideslope intercept or ESCOE for the LOC approach. Going to do some reading and see if that's correct.

Good keep reading because you should find that you're correct here. By the way, take a look at the OAK ILS 11. It too has a mandatory GSIA of 1800' and, being intimately familiar with this approach, I can tell you that a) you'd better be at that altitude well before GS intercept and NOT dawdling down the GS if you don't want to be copying a phone number after you land, and b) if that's not enough incentive, perhaps the TCAS RA or the wake turbulence encounter related to the 777 on the ILS 19R at SFO will convince you.

Edit: After looking at it again, I don't see why they would have the 2000 minimum altitude at glideslope intercept if 2000 was the manditory altitude, I think the 2000 manditory is only for the LOC approach.

D'ough! Ya blew it! You had it right the first time! Go find a Jepp chart and you'll see what I mean.

The reason there seem to be two different altitudes applicable to the situation is because the FAA's lovely way of charting things leaves them in this pickle. They feel the need to chart the GSIA and draw a little lightning bolt pointing to the intercept point. That point is always shown as an at-or-above altitude in terms of symbology - the numerical value with the line under it. If you think about it this would have to be the case. It's not going to be an at-or-below altitude with no lower limit!

They also have to show mandatory altitudes. They treat that as a separate exercise and thus, add another chart symbol - the same numerical value but this time with a line above and below it. This is what creates the confusion. Two symbols depicted when one would do - as long as there's a note that the said symbol is a mandatory altitude.

TIS

 

[TIS]

If it was intended to make you intercept the glide slope absolutely at 2000' over ESKOE, there would be a 2000 with lines above and below between FOSOM and ESKOE, instead of the 2000 with the below line and the lightning bolt.

I could be wrong though, I will have to look at the Jepps when I get in the airplane tomorrow.

Good! Go look at those Jepps. It'll clear it all up. The thing is that BOTH symbols you describe are there. One is to denote the intercept point (lightning bolt+altitude) and the other is to denote the mandatory altitude
(line above and below). They happen to be located in nearly the same place on the chart but they have nothing whatsoever to do with one another and they communicate separate, unrelated pieces on information.

TIS

 

[EatSleepFly]

One look at a Jepp Chart tells the whole story.

In the profile section of a the Jepp plate what you see is that the segment between FOSOM and ESKOE has only one altitude associated with it - 2000'. It is labeled as mandatory. The answer is unambiguous and clear - the GSIA and the altitude to be maintained (mandatory) until GS intercept are both 2000'. End of story.

Yep, what a difference. The Jepp chart is perfectly clear. I checked it out yesterday afternoon.

I'm glad we use Jepps...