Army Special Forces

[stonewall]

Oh sh*t, now you've done it. In a couple of minutes that primadonna MAGNUM!! is going to launch into another lecture about how great the F/16 does CAS and all his sniper pod kills.

He almost had me convinced that the F-16 non-combatants at 20,000 ft had a more objective view of CAS than the dudes down at 0006 ft AGL.

I guess the guy that killed Zarqawi is a non-combatant. How objective is the view of Tomahawk? Better than a sniper pod at 20k?

ROVER.

 

[stonewall]

Well isn't that special. :nuts:


'kin jarheads ... geezus.


We're talking US Army Special Forces, son. Keep up, fer crissakes! :uzi:

And for the love of God, leave the F-16s at home when I'm taking fire and need help. Send me an A-10 or Puff the Magic Dragon.

This year's Jabara award winner was an F-16 pilot. Got it for doing CAS. At 100'. Not 10k, not 20k. One hundred.

 

[DaveGriffin]

This year's Jabara award winner was an F-16 pilot. Got it for doing CAS. At 100'. Not 10k, not 20k. One hundred.

"Capt. John Vargas, an F-16 pilot assigned to the 555th Fighter Squadron at Aviano AB, Italy, is the 2006 winner of the Col. James Jabara Award for excellence in airmanship displayed in Operations Iraqi Freedom, Enduring Freedom, and Joint Forge. Vargas provided close air support and employed ordnance on high-value targets during forty-five missions totaling more than 200 hours in Iraq and Afghanistan. During one sortie, he flew at high speed and low altitude expending flares directly over suspected enemy locations to allow a convoy of allied forces to move to safety. Vargas was also involved in developing F-16 mission tactics, techniques, and procedures, including urban close air support, convoy support, and integration with Special Forces. The award is presented annually by the US Air Force."

MAGNNUM!!
Vargas is super hot sh*t. But sadly, he is the exception. To the detriment of the grunts, the risk reduction AF culture doesn't typically promote this type of war fighting mentality and action.

Vargas' tactics reinforce the value of low flying aircraft. A low flying a/c has real impact on the bad guys, not the F-16 at 20,000 ft. But the AF would rather rely on stand-off weapons and keep the a/c away from the battlefield. Most F-16 drivers might as well be UAV operators.

Note: The USAFA will never select an A-10 guy for the Jabara Award, no matter what they do. It would be bad PR.

 

[Scrapdog]

"Capt. John Vargas, an F-16 pilot assigned to the 555th Fighter Squadron at Aviano AB, Italy, is the 2006 winner of the Col. James Jabara Award for excellence in airmanship displayed in Operations Iraqi Freedom, Enduring Freedom, and Joint Forge. Vargas provided close air support and employed ordnance on high-value targets during forty-five missions totaling more than 200 hours in Iraq and Afghanistan. During one sortie, he flew at high speed and low altitude expending flares directly over suspected enemy locations to allow a convoy of allied forces to move to safety. Vargas was also involved in developing F-16 mission tactics, techniques, and procedures, including urban close air support, convoy support, and integration with Special Forces. The award is presented annually by the US Air Force."

MAGNNUM!!
Vargas is super hot sh*t. But sadly, he is the exception. To the detriment of the grunts, the risk reduction AF culture doesn't typically promote this type of war fighting mentality and action.

Vargas' tactics reinforce the value of low flying aircraft. A low flying a/c has real impact on the bad guys, not the F-16 at 20,000 ft. But the AF would rather rely on stand-off weapons and keep the a/c away from the battlefield. Most F-16 drivers might as well be UAV operators.

Note: The USAFA will never select an A-10 guy for the Jabara Award, no matter what they do. It would be bad PR.

Haha! Spoken like a true clown who hasn't actually flown an aircraft a day in his life. Great retort Dave, great retort...no go choke yourself with your hand.

 

[DaveGriffin]

Haha! Spoken like a true clown who hasn't actually flown an aircraft a day in his life. Great retort Dave, great retort...no go choke yourself with your hand.

I have only ONE word for you Zoomie:

CINC Trophy

 

[Scrapdog]

I have only ONE word for you Zoomie:

CINC Trophy

Yawn....again, PM me when you actually have piloted an aircraft before you start running your mouth like a toilet once more...then we can chat.

 

[DaveGriffin]

Yawn....again, PM me when you actually have piloted an aircraft before you start running your mouth like a toilet again...then we can chat.

You 'alternate lifestyle' AF guys (and you know what I mean) always seem to be trying to get someone to get a PM going.

No thanks. I'll just sit here, beer in hand, and bask in the glory of the CINC Trophy.

 

[Scrapdog]

You 'alternate lifestyle' AF guys (and you know what I mean) always seem to be trying to get someone to get a PM going.

No thanks. I'll just sit here, beer in hand, and bask in the glory of the CINC Trophy.

Dave - what year did you graduate from the Naval Academy?

 

[DaveGriffin]

Dave - what year did you graduate from the Naval Academy?

1992, what year for you at USAFA?

 

[Scrapdog]

1992, what year for you at USAFA?

99 guy myself.

 

[DaveGriffin]

99 guy myself.

Wasn't that the easy class the KC-135 Navs talk about?

 

[JungleJett]

Is that a CINC Trophy or Sink Trophy?

 

[DaveGriffin]

Is that a CINC Trophy or Sink Trophy?

I don't think you'ld know, loser.

 

[rickair7777]

That was readily apparent when the Navy converted 4 of their missile boats for seal deployment. Up until then, they would only risk a diesel boat for such operations.

Also, I think the Navy has launched some new special support ships for special forces people.

Little wars is way of the future now that the Russian invasion of Europe scenario of the Cold War era has seemingly become passé.

??? The Navy has operated only one diesel submarine in the last few decades, it was essentialy an R&D boat.

The nuclear attack boats (SSN's) have conducted SOF missions for decades, the new SSGN conversion will simply be more capable in capacity and special equipment.

 

[JungleJett]

I don't think you'ld know, loser.

But I would know how to spell "you'd".

 

[tomgoodman]

Subs

??? The Navy has operated only one diesel submarine in the last few decades, it was essentialy an R&D boat.

If you visit Portland, Oregon, check out the USS Blueback, displayed at the science museum. Last of the diesel attack subs, but with a hull just like the nuclear subs. Guides there said it operated into the '90s and was the sub filmed jumping nearly out of the water in "Hunt for Red October".

The nuclear attack boats (SSN's) have conducted SOF missions for decades, the new SSGN conversion will simply be more capable in capacity and special equipment.

The book "Blind Man's Bluff" is a great account of some of these sneaky operations. Many crewmembers got awards without knowing exactly what they had done, until much later.

 

[usmc33]

Haha! Spoken like a true clown who hasn't actually flown an aircraft a day in his life. Great retort Dave, great retort...no go choke yourself with your hand.

Scrapdog. Sadly, but true; as a guy who has both flown fighter aircraft and served on the ground in combat, I'll tell ya', most combat Soldiers, Marines, Sailors and AIRMAN who I've talked to would ask for A-10s, AC-130 or Hornets over any other type of A/C for CAS. And I'm not talking CAS as in dropping 2K#'ers on one bad guy, I'm talking danger-close CAS. USAF pointy-nosed guys haven't got a good rep for good CAS....to include my own opinion. Remember, you're the one who PROVIDES the support, so the opinion should matter to you much.

 

[Scrapdog]

Scrapdog. Sadly, but true; as a guy who has both flown fighter aircraft and served on the ground in combat, I'll tell ya', most combat Soldiers, Marines, Sailors and AIRMAN who I've talked to would ask for A-10s, AC-130 or Hornets over any other type of A/C for CAS. And I'm not talking CAS as in dropping 2K#'ers on one bad guy, I'm talking danger-close CAS. USAF pointy-nosed guys haven't got a good rep for good CAS....to include my own opinion. Remember, you're the one who PROVIDES the support, so the opinion should matter to you much.

Brother, I have to wholeheartedly disagree with you. Danger close CAS does not mean flying low and slow. Haven't you read any of the weapons school articles on this? Danger close CAS means that there are troops in close contact with the enemy and time is usually of the essence. And I'm not sure how much time you've had flying with a Litening A/T TGP or a Sniper TGP, but the fidelity of the graphics in both IR and TV mode is outstanding. I'm talking extremely sharp and detailed. And a F-16 at 10k to 20k with some GBU-12's with an advanced TGP is extremely lethal and precise. The guys on the ground don't give a crap where the bomb comes from or what jet it comes from, they just need it in the right location and on the timing that they call for. And an F-16 with the set up as mentioned above is great at doing that. I just recently did a large CAS EX with a bunch of Army TAC-P's..and they were thoroughly impressed at how effective the F-16 was in delivering ordinance in the right place at the right time as well as the data the TGP was able to give to the pilots (showed them the footage in the debrief). Is the AC-130, the A-10, and even the F-18 (tiny motored jet) good at doing CAS? Of course it is - but is the F-16 just as, if not more, precise than the airplanes mentioned above with a solid pilot and a Litening A/T or Sniper pod on? You betcha.

 

[Deuce130]

It never ceases to amaze me the ignorance that abounds about CAS. The first thing everyone needs to do is to stop being so parochial. There are alot of platforms that can do CAS and each one is suited to different situations. Guys like Griffin are thinking of a solely OEF or late OIF mentality. Others, like Scrap and Magnum!!, are fighting the next war and thinking a little bit bigger picture. A Gunpig is great for CAS, no doubt about it. But only when there's no ground to air threat. Throw a couple of SA-6's, 8's, or Rolands in there and the AC-130 is rendered relatively ineffective. Same goes for daylight hours, though there are certain situations an AC-130 can be effective in daylight or medium illumination nights. Same goes for an A-10. Throw in some SU-27's or MiG-29's and how effective will an A-10 be in providing a TST type CAS to troops in contact w/o CAP? Not very. Survivability goes way down. Now, I know that the anti-AF fighter pilot crowd out there likes to say that A-10 pilots or AC-130 crews will risk it all to get there but Viper/F-22 guys won't, but that's just inflammatory crap that doesn't contribute a whole lot to the convo. Every AF pilot I've ever met (Attack, Fighter, Bomber) will bust their butt to do everything they can do when they get TIC. Who can fight their way in, do the job, and fight thier way out? F-16, F-15E, F-22, F-18. And, quite frankly, I've NEVER heard of a CCT dude turning down CAS because they didn't like the platform that was available. If you can talk to the guy on the ground, and you can hit some coordinates, then they'll be happy to have you. Beggars can't be choosers.

 

[rickair7777]

If you visit Portland, Oregon, check out the USS Blueback, displayed at the science museum. Last of the diesel attack subs, but with a hull just like the nuclear subs. Guides there said it operated into the '90s and was the sub filmed jumping nearly out of the water in "Hunt for Red October".

I was refering to the USS Dolphin, which decomms next month. The SSN's have certainly participated extensively in SOF operations (ask me how I know...on second thought, don't ask). The SSGN conversion projects will enhance this capability by a significant margin. hopefully.

Danger close means the target is in close proximity (defined by the weapon type) to friendlies (often, but not always the personnel providing the FAC services). The procedures associated with danger close are not especially oriented to a time critical response, they are oriented towards not hitting the friendlies with ordnance or effects (at least not a lot of effects).