Are you guys tired of this yet? Time for National list?

[licorice]

Nope. wrong again. Again? have we discussed this before? maybe I am getting old, I don't seem to recall....
GenX are the best flyers b/c we learned to fly on needles and pointers and no autopilots- we still have that ingrained= but have no trouble at all w/ the computer side. Oh my, now that's impressive, you are the "greatest generation"! Aviation and piloting were in the dark ages until waveflyer and GenX came on the scene! I enjoy all flying and don't get hung up on how the info is presented to me. Maybe you can say the same. But you'd be an exception- i've seen you guys struggle--- over and over and over... all while voting to disenfranchise my generation- well, waveflyer, we were struggling because we couldn't find the "disenfranchise GenX" button!:laugh: and believe that you are actually better.
News: You're not. That's been proven to me over and over....In your vastly experienced, omniscient view of aviation...(all provided to you because you were born between... what? 1970 and 1985?)
I couldn't imagine i'd have such disdain for the generation that came before me You started this with your laughably elitist comments about TYPING SPEED!- but you guys earn it w/ every vote you cast- in your MEC and in general elections. Earn what?-our disdain for you? your disdain for us? your disdain for the generation before you? BTW, what does voting have to do with FMS? Along with their declining test scores, did GenX also have a little problem with expressing coherent thought in the English language? Look at the career and country you've left us before you start to lecture me on anything.

(Undoubtedly an Obama supporter) Waveflyer, for a
cessna flyer, you have one of the most massive, angry, incoherent egos I've ever seen..(only exceeded by the thinness of skin surrounding it)..relax...take a pill...

 

[Turtle21]

JT, you and I both work for a non-ALPA carrier. How do you think we could ever be included in any sort of national seniority list? We just have our tiny little ineffective union that is not part of the THE pilot's union. The hope of ever having a national list is dependent upon ALPA. They are the only ones that even have a snowball's chance in hell of accomplishing such a thing. Want a national list? First step is to get everyone under one union.

WTF? ALPA is the reason we DON'T have a national seniority list.

If a union ever devised a way to have a policy of a national seniority list they would become the national union and replace the POS ALPA.

 

[Rez O. Lewshun]

WTF? ALPA is the reason we DON'T have a national seniority list.

If a union ever devised a way to have a policy of a national seniority list they would become the national union and replace the POS ALPA.

Perhaps....

not sure ALPA has ever claimed responsibility for a NSL....

How would you run a NSL?

 

[JumpersAway]

When LCC or some other poorly run airline goes out of business they'll be able to bump the pilots of much better carriers to the street. Yeah, that's better.

There are no "better" carriers. There are only "better for now" carriers. All of them are "perpetual junk" and follow the same drab business model of bankruptcies, furloughes, and pay cuts for all.

 

[Soverytired]

There are no "better" carriers. There are only "better for now" carriers. All of them are "perpetual junk" and follow the same drab business model of bankruptcies, furloughes, and pay cuts for all.

Painting with the "big brush" makes for a messy picture.

Of course there are "better" carriers. Plenty of great airlines worldwide who don't follow your hackneyed and trite "model".

Even for those in the US, there are big differences between the big boys . . . UAL post-BK is light years different than say, DAL or Continental post-BK. It's grossly unfair to lump American or Southwest in the BK pile as well.

 

[PCL_128]

WTF? ALPA is the reason we DON'T have a national seniority list.

If a union ever devised a way to have a policy of a national seniority list they would become the national union and replace the POS ALPA.

Yes, I'm sure your beloved uSAPa will save us all with an NSL. What a frickin' moron.

 

[JumpersAway]

Painting with the "big brush" makes for a messy picture.

Of course there are "better" carriers. Plenty of great airlines worldwide who don't follow your hackneyed and trite "model".

Even for those in the US, there are big differences between the big boys . . . UAL post-BK is light years different than say, DAL or Continental post-BK. It's grossly unfair to lump American or Southwest in the BK pile as well.

So that I understand you correctly...... Are you saying that American didn't stuff wage concessions and work rule cuts down the throats of their pilots? Also, are you telling me that Southwest is immune to the turmoil within the airline industry?

Face it, history is on my side. Southwest isn't that special- they're going to take a bite of the same sandwich everyone else has eaten for the past 8 years, but their fuel bought them time. Even Gary Kelly has stated that their once strong business model isn't going to work for the long term, and they too would have lost money if they were to pay the same for jet fuel everyone else has been paying.

Many of the international carriers you refer to are subsidized by their governments- much like ours were pre deregulation era.

I stick to my original statement that there are no "better" carriers, but there are only "better for now" carriers.

 

[waveflyer]

(Undoubtedly an Obama supporter) Waveflyer, for a
cessna flyer, you have one of the most massive, angry, incoherent egos I've ever seen..(only exceeded by the thinness of skin surrounding it)..relax...take a pill...

No- i just don't want to give you guys a thing.
And i feel that way every time i see a 70/90 seat RJ pass by knowing that that FO qualifies for food stamps. Take responsibility. Young guys did not vote to release scope- BB's did.
If you knew me- you'd know that this isn't about me or my skin or my personal situation. I've said it before- I'm fine... I'm just not arrogant enough to think that the state of the industry won't eventually come around to bite me. The whole industry has suffered from BB's bad decisions- And all the while they have thought they are god's gift. - You're not. But i'd love it if you did decide to live up to your positions and responsibilities to this career. You've benefitted from the generations before you- taken that- and leave less behind?- Never once improving the career?
------------------------
Politics? Where did that come from?
Love the irrational link to Obama. As if supporting Obama could be considered an insult in this day and age. But keep thinking it is.

 

[licorice]

No- i just don't want to give you guys a thing.

No what? you don't want to give "us" what "thing"? What are you talking about? (forgive me if I can't read your mind, but I'll try, stay tuned)..Oh, BTW, I'm sure "we" could live without any potential "thing" that you could conceivably give "us".

And i feel that way every time i see a 70/90 seat RJ pass by knowing that that FO qualifies for food stamps. Take responsibility.

-you "feel" what way? -mad at every major airline pilot born between 1946 and 1964? -that's obviously the mature and responsible thing to do -or, or... do you feel sorry for the FO on food stamps? while this is sad, (if true) ---why don't YOU "take responsibility"..? Donate a part of your salary to him, Waveflyer....naw...that wouldn't do, would it---much easier to attack and blame all pilots born between 1946 and 1964.

Young guys did not vote to release scope- BB's did.

No Waveflyer, the MAJORITY of pilots voted to have scope as it is- a compromise amongst many competing priorities. Funny how that majority thing works... you're probably sure the majority is wrong on scope, but you'd be in a minority holding that opinion.

I'm just not arrogant enough to think that the state of the industry won't eventually come around to bite me.

No, but you're arrogant enough to blame all the ills of the industry on pilots from the BB generation.

The whole industry has suffered from BB's bad decisions-

See what I mean!!!:laugh:

And all the while they have thought they are god's gift. - You're not.

---Pure B.S. Wavewacker, when have I, or any other pilot of "my" generation said on this forum we were "God's gift"? --but there is ample evidence on this forum of your attitude of condescension and derisiveness toward older pilots. You actually think you are a better pilot than the captains you fly with because you can push buttons on the FMS faster!

But i'd love it if you did decide to live up to your positions and responsibilities to this career.

-Yeah, I'd love a lot of things... I'd love it if I didn't have to listen to sniffling, whining lectures from Junior co-pilots..
------------------------

Politics? Where did that come from?

oh, I don't know, maybe, quote: "Look where you left our...country before you lecture me"

Love the irrational link to Obama.

not so irrational now, heh?

As if supporting Obama could be considered an insult in this day and age.

Not anymore insulting than if one were considered a socialist.

But keep thinking it is.

-no, I believe I'll think as I want to think, not as you want me to think. Wavecommie... ..-I've got you figured out now, you're not mad at the 'boomers, you're mad at everybody that is senior to you and makes more money than you do...how could a young, computer-savy pilot with superb manual dexterity possibly make less than that struggling old fogy in the left seat? Either redistribute the wealth towards the bottom of the seniority list (thus favoring you) and pay all pilots the same, or make the profession a complete darwinistic meritocracy, where back-stabbing, a$$-kissing, self-proclaimed expertise, and "political talent" determine the "pecking order" more than actual, every-day flying experience and judgement.

 

[Benhuntn]

What we need is a national list of socialist losers....I will watch and see which pilots put their name to that list. The dumbest idea I have ever heard on this board!

 

[Flopgut]

Gotta love it!! Boomers want to either make scab lists or be on scab lists but then bristle at the notion we should have one list for everyone?!

Where does the gall hit bottom for you boomers? How bad do you guys have to get things screwed up before you hang your heads and disappear? If this were pro sports, Wall Street, the public sector, or anything where seniority wasn't the primary determinant you would be out!

 

[B190Captain]

What we need is a national list of socialist losers....I will watch and see which pilots put their name to that list. The dumbest idea I have ever heard on this board!

There is nothing socialist about the idea of an NSL. It would settle a lot of problems but at the same time create new ones. No system is perfect. This one is certainly flawed and backed by a union with no backbone. How can a Union claim "one voice" when there are 35 different contracts? It solves nothing and promotes low-balling one another and pitting pilot against pilot while management watches from the ivory towers in amusement.

That is why it would be up to us to put our heads together collectively and solve them as much as we can. Unfortunately the "me, me, me" factor comes into play and it becomes more troublesome.

I take it you were or are military. When you transfer to another base or branch do you lose your rank/pay grade? Do you go to buck private when you make a transfer? Seems to me that your statement is a bit hypocritical.

Nothing personal just an opinion.

 

[JT12345]

What we need is a national list of socialist losers....I will watch and see which pilots put their name to that list. The dumbest idea I have ever heard on this board!

I knew before I read your bio what you were. You are typical. Guy gets out of military world isolated from the rest and is an expert on commercial aviation politics. You just don't get it, but you will. This industry will promise you that. Doesn't matter who you work for. All it takes is bad timing and one bad decision.

 

[licorice]

--B190: The only possible use for a NSL I can see would be for the contingency of a merger...and even that would be extremely difficult, as all the pilots in the country would have to agree on an initial, negotiated national list based on a lot more than DOH! The idea that through an NSL jobs would be interchangeable during times of hiring, furlough etc. is completely unworkable and would create many more problems than it would solve.

 

[licorice]

Gotta love it!! Boomers want to either make scab lists or be on scab lists but then bristle at the notion we should have one list for everyone?!

Kind of a s-t-r-e-t-c-h, there, Flopgut, all boomers make scab lists or are on scab lists? Similar to: all genXers either make baseless accusations or are angry that they are junior!

Where does the gall hit bottom for you boomers? How bad do you guys have to get things screwed up before you hang your heads and disappear?

Yes, we 70 million boomers hang our heads in shame before the puny, greedy generation of have-nots who's motto is: "immediate satisfaction"

If this were pro sports, Wall Street, the public sector, or anything where seniority wasn't the primary determinant you would be out

Primary determinant of what, Fatgut? -talent? worth? position? YGTBSM!! GenX more talented? more "worthy"? than previous generations? -no, just more greedy and IMPATIENT...

You genX FLAPs never cease to amaze me, you can't stand being junior, so you want to negate seniority by any means possible .......paying all pilots the same via a NSL,(a payraise for you) -or be rewarded for your (temporary) advantage of youth and quicker eye-hand coordination---a kind of half-a$$ed meritocracy were your true, and most "worthy" talents would immediately prevail.......(flying, button-pushing MONKEYS!!!!):laugh: :laugh: :laugh: :smash:

 

[licorice]

I knew before I read your bio what you were. You are typical. Guy gets out of military world isolated from the rest and is an expert on commercial aviation politics. You just don't get it, but you will. This industry will promise you that. Doesn't matter who you work for. All it takes is bad timing and one bad decision.

JT: maybe you just don't get it, -his military experience landed him a 1st job at a very stable, MAJOR AIRLINE. That fact effectively overrides all of your nefarious plots and imaginings of "recovering lost seniority" via a NSL.

 

[Flopgut]

You genX FLAPs never cease to amaze me, you can't stand being junior, so you want to negate seniority by any means possible .......

Negate seniority??!! You can't be serious. What do you call age 65?? Fascinating that I ask "where does the gall hit bottom?" and you accuse my generation of attempting to negate seniority with a NSL. Evidently, arrogance and gall have no bottom with you. Are you reading your own posts? Unbelievable.

 

[licorice]

Negate seniority??!! You can't be serious.

Oh, but I am, Flop. As long as all airlines are different and pay differently a NSL will be a "seniority grab" by those who are payed less and have less stable careers. "Make" the airlines all pay the same? -Yeah right, that would be equivalent to "making" all airlines be the same...pretty tough thing to do in a free-enterprise democracy. Why don't you petition the government to "nationalize" the entire airline industry, then everyone would be payed the same and if anything goes wrong the taxpayers will pick up the tab..

What do you call age 65??

I don't know, but let me guess: a taxi? -optional social security retirement age? standard, industry-wide, government-wide, nation-wide retirement age?-a retirement age that was inevitable for that rare, feisty breed,-the "airline pilot"- but just happened to occur at an inconvenient time for you? -yeah, that's what I'll call it! How did you let this happen on your watch, Flopgut? Take heart though, with the demise of defined benefit retirements, age 65 is moot, people will retire when they have enough money to retire..

Fascinating that I ask "where does the gall hit bottom?" and you accuse my generation of attempting to negate seniority with a NSL.

Yes, fascinating isn't it Flop, that you could ask such an innocent, unprovocative question such as "where does the gall hit bottom?" and not expect a response in kind. In fact, it's not only fascinating, I find that it's scintillatingly hypocritical...

Evidently, arrogance and gall have no bottom with you. Are you reading your own posts? Unbelievable.

You make very vague, run-of-the-mill hyperbolic accusations, Flopgut. How about rubbing a few gray cells together and elaborate, elucidate or articulate (take your pick) your positions...

P.S.-waveflyer started this "generation war" with his completely unprovoked comments about his captain's (and his entire generation!) "stuggling" with FMS. Impressive, isn't it? Thanks for "chiming in".

 

[licorice]

...............................................................

 

[Flopgut]

Licorice: Age 65 was seniority aggression. An act of hostility perpetrated by your generation of miscreants who think cradle to grave employment is a birthright. YOU negated seniority with age 65. Do we have to wonder how your generation would have acted if this had fell to you to deal with? Not for a second. Discussion of a NSL as a backstop to possible future churn in the wake of you retirement age stunt is actually a fair minded idea. Of course with the ease and near zero disciplined rise your generation enjoyed to career contentment compared to any before or [possibly] after leaves no room for doubt your going to be adverse to that. There is no amount of increase or assistance that your generation won't soak up and then clamor for more.

Just a little about me: 737 Captain with probably more JT8, VOR to VOR flight time than you have. No, sorry, don't flatter yourself...you aren't denying me anything. My R&I chair already tried to intervene on my age 65 thoughts by showing me where I am on the seniority list. Nope. Sorry. My own good fortune on this rule change doesn't suffice. I'm not you and I'm not in your generation. Hold cheap every landing and every radio transmission you make. You are not the professional equivilent of the pilot you are flying with. Your generation will be written into the history books just like every other. You better believe: Every single pilot in all the generations before and after yours aint got enough middle fingers to fully display the contempt for you and your generation.