Are Unions dead?

[paid4training]

With Skywest getting the latest RFP are Unionized pilot groups becoming uncompetive? discuss...and this is not flamebait...but a good question

 

[scott hall]

Let's hope so.

 

[YourPilotFriend]

No, it has nothing to do with the union. It's all about timing, skywest has the growth timing right to get its costs low enough to win all the flying. Unions are needed at the major level, but not needed at the regional.

 

[WildBlue]

Unions are needed at all levels of aviation. I would hate to think how management would bend us over without our contracts.

 

[GogglesPisano]

Ask the guys at FedEx and UPS if unions are dead. They didn't get those pay rates because of supply and demand.

 

[Metro752]

Theres a lot of little rich kids who have basically grown up being told unions suck, unions are blue collar, blue collar is white trash.

That's where the problem is going to be at the regional level.

 

[Tarzan]

It's not that union's suck. It's more a problem of them conducting business like it is still 1950. The enviroment has changed drastically while they have not. I think more people see the problem now more than ever and the quick solution for them.... Do away with unions.

 

[wms]

What the local ALPA councils at the regional level need are competent mature representatives. Organization is necessary in the airlines, especially at the regionals, but need to be managed professionally and not emotionally. With all of the coersion to violate the contracts as well as the FARs (yes, some supposedly good airlines actually try to force their pilots to break the law), pilots need some kind of support structure to back them up when they stand up for what's right.

I've worked at places without unions where you had to choose between your job and doing what's right. If we lose representation, bargaining power for pay and work rules will only be the start of our losses. The worst part will be not being able to stand up for what's right in doing our job.

 

[Shrek]

Theres a lot of little rich kids who have basically grown up being told unions suck, unions are blue collar, blue collar is white trash.

That's where the problem is going to be at the regional level.

Great point.

 

[Shrek]

If you think your property's union sucks - Vote - Volunteer or Shut your hole.

A union is only as good as the participation of the pilot group period.

 

[PCL_128]

Unions are needed at the major level, but not needed at the regional.

Easy for someone to say that doesn't have to deal with managements at the regionals. I shudder to think of what my life would be like with ALPA's help.

 

[~~~^~~~]

With Skywest getting the latest RFP are Unionized pilot groups becoming uncompetive?

You bring up an excellent point without meaning to do so.

The purpose of a union is to remove competition and our Nation's laws intend to allow a union to establish a monopoly over labor in order to bargain collectively. A union has this power and can effectively yield it if it properly represents its membership.

ALPA has failed. This failure is the direct result of the union allowing and even encouraging competition amongst the labor groups it represents.

ALPA will succeed when it removes competition, when it brings together employees to bargain collectively, standing together, to raise this profession.

We had better hope ALPA does succeed, for it is our only hope of raising this profession.

 

[Rez O. Lewshun]

Let's wait and see how SKywest is doing in five years before we judge/jury unions based on them....

All the best to SKW.

 

[doh]

You bring up an excellent point without meaning to do so.

The purpose of a union is to remove competition and our Nation's laws intend to allow a union to establish a monopoly over labor in order to bargain collectively. A union has this power and can effectively yield it if it properly represents its membership.

ALPA has failed. This failure is the direct result of the union allowing and even encouraging competition amongst the labor groups it represents.

ALPA will succeed when it removes competition, when it brings together employees to bargain collectively, standing together, to raise this profession.

We had better hope ALPA does succeed, for it is our only hope of raising this profession.

Haven't I said that about a dozen times already? You hit the nail on the head!

 

[D.sanchez]

Unions are needed at the major level, but not needed at the regional.

Stupidest thing said on Flightinfo... and that's hard to do.

 

[Willy21]

No, it has nothing to do with the union. It's all about timing, skywest has the growth timing right to get its costs low enough to win all the flying. Unions are needed at the major level, but not needed at the regional.

That is all well and good if you want to stay at SkyWest the rest of your career. The problem is everybody gets their first regional job and is already looking to the next job. They don't want to think they might be there for 10 years or maybe even until age 60. With the amount of guys and gals out there with the minimums of every major or LCC it is going to take some time before your number is called, even if you know somebody at XYZ airlines. That is why in my opinion some sort of protection for pilots is needed at all levels. To help you have some quality of life that is in a binding CBA until you can move on.

A union is only as good as the people that take an active role. If you let other people run your union and don't take the time to be involved and vote in the elections and go to the meetings then yes your union is broken. You are the one that is breaking it. That is where we are at currently.

Do the unions need to evolve, yes. For that to happen people need to stand up and get involved. I thought I would never say this but I am glad that the Jackson 5 ran in the ASA ATL LEC election. It got a good turn out and more of that pilot group than ever turned in a ballot. I don't agree with their platform but at least they let their voice be heard. If you are totally against ALPA or the Teamsters or whoever is at you airline then you need to go to the meetings and let your voice be heard even more than the next guy.

I think that every pilot at SkyWest should go to the ALPA meetings and turn in your card. ALPA may not be right for you at SkyWest, but you need to at least hear what they have to say. Just by turning away and thinking that it is only for the majors or the LCC's and I will wait unitl I am there to take part might hurt you more in the long run. At least get more info and let the pilot group vote.

Am I pro-union, maybe. I don't think I beat the union drum like some. I like to think that I am just one of those people that would like to see this job go back to where it was when I watched my father go to work.

 

[~~~^~~~]

Haven't I said that about a dozen times already?

Yes, but we must tell them again, and again, and .....

 

[DoinTime]

With Skywest getting the latest RFP are Unionized pilot groups becoming uncompetive? discuss...and this is not flamebait...but a good question

FYI....Pinnacle got the last RFP. 124 CRJ's with a conditional award of 17 more. In case you didn't know all of this flying was out for bid.

Skywest got a deal for 15 crj's at a company that will likely not exist in another year.

 

[Huck]

ALPA has failed. This failure is the direct result of the union allowing and even encouraging competition amongst the labor groups it represents.

We have a winner.....

My grandpappy was a union brickmason for 40 years. He didn't know much about airlines, but he knew alot about whipsawing, and that's what he'd call the climate in this industry today.

When DAL bought ASA in '98 we were all suddenly 100% owned by the same shareholders. We had the same ticket stock, the same widget logo, the same gates and the same stations. But the ALPA BOD voted 11 to 2 that this was not a merger. Then they reaped what they sowed......

 

[Smarta$$]

With Skywest getting the latest RFP are Unionized pilot groups becoming uncompetive? discuss...and this is not flamebait...but a good question

Management does not like unions. Unions make it more difficult to impliment negative changes and are there to protect its members (Labor). Management VS. Labor. I think you would agree that Pilot's and management's interests are alway aligned, NOT.

Legacy managements dont like unions, I would venture to say that was a factor in at least some of their RFP's. In other words, lets reward the pilots that don't want to protect themselves. They drank the koolaid.

 

[n32jk]

It's not that union's suck. It's more a problem of them conducting business like it is still 1950. The enviroment has changed drastically while they have not. I think more people see the problem now more than ever and the quick solution for them.... Do away with unions.

Spoken like a true management lacky.....they love having tools like you in their workforce.

 

[n32jk]

What the local ALPA councils at the regional level need are competent mature representatives. Organization is necessary in the airlines, especially at the regionals, but need to be managed professionally and not emotionally. With all of the coersion to violate the contracts as well as the FARs (yes, some supposedly good airlines actually try to force their pilots to break the law), pilots need some kind of support structure to back them up when they stand up for what's right.

I've worked at places without unions where you had to choose between your job and doing what's right. If we lose representation, bargaining power for pay and work rules will only be the start of our losses. The worst part will be not being able to stand up for what's right in doing our job.

The major's MEC groups had their head in the sand about RJ's just hoping they would go away. They had to opportunity to have combined lists which would have protected most of THEIR pilots with the downturn/RJ growth. They elected to build a wall and are responsible for this explosion of diaper wearing kids sitting in a jet before they can walk. Lack of responsible MEC leadership at the Major level in the mid to late 90's caused a lot of these issues. I totally agree with your statements about needing mature responsible guidance, but the major's representatives a decade ago were major architects in this mess we are in.

 

[mrnolmts]

All I know is this:
If we were non-union, we'd be far worse off than we are, given the post 9/11 environment we find ourselves in. Without the contract, management would have forced concessions down our throats a long time ago.
Having said that, there are many things about our union I don't like. Like it or not, the union is a business. They're in it for the money.

 

[paid4training]

FYI....Pinnacle got the last RFP. 124 CRJ's with a conditional award of 17 more. In case you didn't know all of this flying was out for bid.

Skywest got a deal for 15 crj's at a company that will likely not exist in another year.

well I understand that. and in my opinion good for pinnacle. I wish CAL had the balls to keep xjt in the total game but they were constantly bombarded with mesa, skywest and republic people telling them they could do it cheaper and maintain service etc. and now xjt has got one hand on their balls and the other over their nose waiting....yes 205 airframes is a lot of flying etc. but what about 69 more with growth etc.? I don't know if it is management being stubborn about profit margin, waiting or not even getting into the 70-90 market, I don't know...

 

[FDJ2]

If you think your property's union sucks - Vote - Volunteer or Shut your hole.

A union is only as good as the participation of the pilot group period.

Bingo!!!!! We have a winner.

 

[YourPilotFriend]

Stupidest thing said on Flightinfo... and that's hard to do.

Yes that is the stupidest thing ever said here. If the majors lost the union, the company would fragment like crazy. The regionals bargain in a box, the union has no control over this because of lack of scope. No scope = useless union.

 

[XJohXJ]

Good point YPF. How about a concise statement:

Regional unions are useless without the backing of their Major's union.

The only good a non-major backed union could do is protecting pilots' work rules within their contract. Yet, thanks to "fly now, grieve later", they give up that responsiblilty, as well. How about trying "grieve now, fly later" for a change? That might actually work (in fact, it does work, but it takes a true union, not some lame association, to be successful) . Grieving after the crime has been committed is just whining.

 

[brnstrmr]

Grieve now, fly later would certainly tip the balance in the unions favor. If it could be done legally, the union would definately gain great leverage. So, the question is, can this be done legally?

 

[PCL_128]

Grieve now, fly later would certainly tip the balance in the unions favor. If it could be done legally, the union would definately gain great leverage. So, the question is, can this be done legally?

No.

There's a reason that ALPA always says "Fly now, grieve later." Welcome to the world of the RLA, folks. If you don't like it, then you'd better "back the PAC," because that's the only way we'll ever get this stuff changed for the better.

 

[Speedtape]

It's not that union's suck. It's more a problem of them conducting business like it is still 1950. The enviroment has changed drastically while they have not. I think more people see the problem now more than ever and the quick solution for them.... Do away with unions.

Actually, it's more of a problem of who's in the White House and who controls Congress!

The recent change in Congress will be the first step in turning things around. The next step is to get rid of Bush and replace him with someone labor friendly.

Unions will never go away!