Apaad Age 60 Change Push

[FoxHunter]

APAAD has been around for a while pushing the change of the age 60 rule in Congress. In the past most of the backing was from the Southwest pilots. On March 14 and 15 they held another "Blitz" on Congress. I was there for the first time and have to say it was quite an education. I'm FedEx and there were pilots from Southwest, JetBlue, UPS, USAIR, NWA, American, and the largest group was UAL.

The large UAL group was made up of individuals that had been very active in UAL ALPA but on this issue thy say that ALPA is flat wrong. They are less than happy with their ALPA leadership. I believe five of seven LECs pssed resolutions supporting the age 60 change and the MEC voted the other way. The famous ALPA poll finished out at 55% against change to 45% for the change. The story they have is that on the original poll they had around 18,000 responses via the internet and touch tone phone. The results were not as they should be so the polling company removed about 8000 responses and made targeted calls to make the poll scientific. Some were inclined to call it rigged, but it got the result ALPA wanted.

I attended five meetings with Aides in Senate offices, two Democrat, three Republican. One with a Liberal Democrat Aide that stated that the change SHOULD be a Democrat issue and that they are on the wrong side. ALPA/APA are the problem and the ALPA members there are making sure the Senators know there is a huge split in both unions on the issue.

The WWW.APAAD.ORG web site will be updated soon to reflect recent changes. There is a fund drive to hire a well known effective DC Democrat lobbyist to influence that party to support the change. I wrote a check for $1000 last month when the drive was started and after learning who is being retained I've decided to write another for the same amount. If you're an ALPA member or APA member you are needed for both your time and money.

 

[ferlo]

Good point on the voting/membership issues. Next time, they need to let the 9000 furloughed ALPA pilots vote as well...talk about artificially skewed results.

 

[Big Beer Belly]

I've been flying with some geezers nearing 60 lately and they have been downright dangerous. It's absolutely cemented in my mind that age 60 should be a FIRM cutoff! I've been forced to both physically and verbally take control of the jet several times in the past few months from one of these older guys to prevent an accident.

Though there may be some that are capable of performing adequately past 60, there are many in denial that are clearly unfit. If age 60 is repealed, you can be sure the accident rates will rise as two old farts buddy bid together and auger one in. 60 may be an artificial cutoff, but in the interest of safety, it's a good one.

BBB

 

[Chest Rockwell]

I've been flying with some geezers nearing 60 lately and they have been downright dangerous. It's absolutely cemented in my mind that age 60 should be a FIRM cutoff! I've been forced to both physically and verbally take control of the jet several times in the past few months from one of these older guys to prevent an accident.

Though there may be some that are capable of performing adequately past 60, there are many in denial that are clearly unfit. If age 60 is repealed, you can be sure the accident rates will rise as two old farts buddy bid together and auger one in. 60 may be an artificial cutoff, but in the interest of safety, it's a good one.

BBB

BBB,

Great post! It proves that the age 60 rule is bogus and without merit. These "geezers" you mention were obviously not yet 60 or they would not have been flying. If they cannot hack it, it is your responsibility to see that management is aware of their issues so that they can either train these "geezers" or get rid of them.

 

[pilotyip]

Hey all you ALPA guys can put that in your contract, age 60 retirement. For the rest of us not able to retire at age 60, lets us keep working the non-sked business at YIP.

 

[BlueSurfer]

Good one!! all the ALPA guys should put it in their contract that they have to retire at age 60... all the rest of us, give us the choice and let us decide for ourselves... not that I want to fly that long anyway...

 

[GuppyWN]

I'm all for a change. I think it should be 55.

Gup

 

[bubbers44]

I think BBB taking over his captain's airplane several times in the last few months is a stretch. In 23,000 hrs of flying I have had to do it twice, none in the last 20 years. Several times in the last few months is not possible unless he is flying with one person who he should have reported. I have flown with a few pilots I would only let land at maintenance airports but airplanes are tough. Age 60 has little to do with pilot proficiency. I believe about age 45 pilots have the highest accident rate. That would be the junior captain group. Check the statistics.

 

[Doug Parker]

Good point on the voting/membership issues. Next time, they need to let the 9000 furloughed ALPA pilots vote as well...talk about artificially skewed results.

Ain't that the truth !!!!

Get Rid of the Geriatrics............60 or sooner !!!!




.

 

[Big Beer Belly]

I think BBB taking over his captain's airplane several times in the last few months is a stretch. In 23,000 hrs of flying I have had to do it twice, none in the last 20 years. Several times in the last few months is not possible unless he is flying with one person who he should have reported. I have flown with a few pilots I would only let land at maintenance airports but airplanes are tough. Age 60 has little to do with pilot proficiency. I believe about age 45 pilots have the highest accident rate. That would be the junior captain group. Check the statistics.

bubbers you caught me ... I'm a habitual liar ... that's how I get my jollies. Truth is ... there are many unfit old geezers just hangin' on (till the next contract in our case) flying along in complete denial. This is typical of many medical doctors also ... hang on till a tragedy forces you to retire (family medical background). Age 60 retirement is arbitrary ... yet sound. Perhaps some could continue successfully, but we have anecdotal evidence (nearing 60 guys falling down stairs and nearly killing themselves) that suggests age 60 retirement is just about right for the majority of pilots.

Also, think about the kind of guys that want to fly beyond 60. Usually loners, stuck in the past glory days reminiscing about old piston junkers flying some obscure route, thinking they still have the skills to command. Look at these guys. They have blotchy old pot-marked faces, skin peeling off everywhere, hunch-shouldered, bald melons with an attitude. More often than not, they still think they have a "chance" to get lucky with the 20-something girl working the gate.

Actually, it's a pathetic letdown nearly all the time for these old geezers. A classic case of not having a clue when you're so far beyond the realm of natural selection (that's why so many buy their "love" in asian countries) that they should gracefully bow out and play with their grandkids.

You old geezers trying to "hang on" are a complete embarrassment and detriment to safety. Retire already, let the public fly safely, and play with your grandchildren rather than you abusing some young asian teenager for your perverted pleasure. You suck at flying airplanes (at this stage) and are only an accident away from FORCED retirement. Since you are elderly, you could care less whether you are forced out ... it's the young co-pilot with his whole career ahead of him that will suffer in any investigation. But you don't care about anyone but yourself, do you?

Hey, I've been around the block long enough to know the game ... the selfish game of "fly till I'm forced out" ... the heck with the consequences. I've seen enough co-pilot careers ruined (that were reluctant to speak up) by dangerous old timers.

You knew the game when you started ... age 60 is retirement. Poor planning on your part does not necessitate a change on all of our parts. Bow out gracefully you old farts!

BBB

 

[SlipperyPete]

I'm all for a change. I think it should be 55.

Gup

I don't think I can put up with the BS that long. Lets make it 50.

 

[pilotyip]

bubbers44, this is pilot board, stop dealing in reality. BBB is the source of all knowledge and wisdom in the aviaiton world. We must listen to the true word of the pilot spirit and brotherhood or we are doomed.

 

[SWA/FO]

Maybe it was BBB talking about himself? He only flies 140 hours a year or so.

 

[Jim Smyth]

Thank God we all have Super Copilots like BBB to save us from ourselves!

In 24 years of commercial aviation I haven't once had the airplane taken away from me while in the Captains seat. Not that it couldn't happen but if it did, you better have a real good reason for it or you would be getting off the airplane at the next stop and be replaced.

Now if you did have to do that where you work and you didn't go in an have a talk to the Chiefs about it, that says something about your character. Because if its as bad as you say it is, it may be dangerous and you would be the weak link in that case by not bringing it to managements attention.

There are selfish reasons for staying past 60 and there is also selfish reasons for wanting guys out at 60. It just depends on your age!

 

[Tim47SIP]

Just a thought!

I think what people need to look at is what is a realistic age today, not when this rule was put in place. We need to look at current statistics to determine if there is a valid reason other than holding up an upgrade to make the mandatory retirement age 60 or greater. This is the only profession that has a mandatory age without the accompanying income of SS or pension at 60. Police, government (Customs, FAA, TSA etc.), railway, etc all have a guaranteed pensions at the time of retirement. I believe law enforcement is 55? for example.

If 60 proves to be the age because of safety, then congress needs to lower the SS and health care age for those individuals. If we can not determine any real definitive data concerning safety/age relationships, then the age must be increased to the corresponding SS/health care age. If this is not done, the only conclusion any rational individual could contemplate would be pure age discrimination.

 

[Paul R. Smith]

I'm all for a change. I think it should be 55.

Gup

:beer:

 

[bubbers44]

Military might be different. Civilian is what I was talking about. Taking a captains airplane in the civilian world requires a good reason. It is your job if required but you had better have a very good reason. BBB might still be in the military. When I manually forced a go around when my corporate chief pilot tried to land I felt the landing was impossible to be completed with out an over run with a four engine jet. I expected to be fired but he ended up thanking me. It was one of those short runways with a thunderstorm approaching with a 30 knot crosswind and heavy rain with standing water at night. We were at 100 feet over the threshold when he yanked the power off and I said go around and pushed the throttles up to go around. A new job is easier to find than getting through rehab and dealing with the FAA.

 

[YourPilotFriend]

If you extend the age to 65, then to be fair, you would have to let the retirees come back if they wanted too.

 

[Purpledog]

Hey all you ALPA guys can put that in your contract, age 60 retirement. For the rest of us not able to retire at age 60, lets us keep working the non-sked business at YIP.

How about this. When the pax carriers come out of the toilet, which they will, negotiate a good contract so you don't have to fly past 60! I can see ten years from now when everything is good again, people asking, "WTF was I thinking, now I have to work until I'm on my death bed?" After all 50 is the new 80 for cargo bubbas.

 

[General Lee]

Changing the retirement age for pilots would also mean changing the rules for firemen and policemen. Do you want a 61 year old fireman carrying you don't a stairway in the smoke of a burning building? Sure you do. How about a 61 year old Cop running (trying to run) after a gang member that just shot your wife? Same with a over 60 aged pilot. The reflexes aren't as good, the hearing is likely gone (how often is that checked in Medicals? Hardly ever), and their sight has gone to krap. Sorry, but I make sense, and the Supreme Court agreed with the police and fireman theory---just ask some Southwest guys who tried to sue to get that changed.


Bye Bye--General Lee

 

[pilotyip]

purple and General again have your contracts make retirment any age you want, but don't force the rest of us who need to work past 60 have to live by your rules.

 

[Chest Rockwell]

Changing the retirement age for pilots would also mean changing the rules for firemen and policemen. Do you want a 61 year old fireman carrying you don't a stairway in the smoke of a burning building? Sure you do. How about a 61 year old Cop running (trying to run) after a gang member that just shot your wife? Same with a over 60 aged pilot. The reflexes aren't as good, the hearing is likely gone (how often is that checked in Medicals? Hardly ever), and their sight has gone to krap. Sorry, but I make sense, and the Supreme Court agreed with the police and fireman theory---just ask some Southwest guys who tried to sue to get that changed.


Bye Bye--General Lee

I don't want a 59 year old or 55 year old fireman or beat cop. I do not think that you can equate the physical demands of carrying someone down a stairway or chasing a criminal on foot to the demands of flying an airplane, even during an emergency. There are plenty of 40 year olds that could not carry me down a flight of stairs. Yes, physical abilities deteriorate with age, but there is no data that indicates that age 60 is a valid limit to ones flying career.

 

[Tejas-Jet]

I've been flying with some geezers nearing 60 lately and they have been downright dangerous. It's absolutely cemented in my mind that age 60 should be a FIRM cutoff! I've been forced to both physically and verbally take control of the jet several times in the past few months from one of these older guys to prevent an accident.

And immediately after that/those flights you went and told....who?...the Chief Pilot?....Professional Standards?....your parish priest?

Did you bring this to someone's attention? Care to relate to us what the outcome of that meeting was? So more of us will know what to do when we fly with "old geezers."

yeah....thats it....you could be our role model...

Tejas

 

[General Lee]

purple and General again have your contracts make retirment any age you want, but don't force the rest of us who need to work past 60 have to live by your rules.

What other things would YOU like to change YIP? Would you also like to marry your sister? Some guys may want to do that too....? That doesn't make it so. You knew the rules going into this job, and you can always fly Falcons for the corporate side, with less risk to people or property (instead of a USAJET DC9 that you COULD be flying). There you go, you can fly past 60, flying corporate. Those are the rules.


Bye Bye--General Lee

 

[General Lee]

I don't want a 59 year old or 55 year old fireman or beat cop. I do not think that you can equate the physical demands of carrying someone down a stairway or chasing a criminal on foot to the demands of flying an airplane, even during an emergency. There are plenty of 40 year olds that could not carry me down a flight of stairs. Yes, physical abilities deteriorate with age, but there is no data that indicates that age 60 is a valid limit to ones flying career.

The Supreme Court did.(they compared the jobs) I bet you could too if you put your mind to it. Was the Supreme Court wrong too? If you open up the discrimination bag of worms, you have to open it to all fields. Your own pilots (ex SWA pilots) lost the case.


Bye Bye--General Lee

 

[pilotyip]

Gosh my first response from the General, I must be moving up in the world. There are still a few over 60 pilots flying DC-8's, 727's and DC-9's I see them all the time they operate under part 125, how does that fit into the picture?

 

[Bleacherbum80]

part 125

I see them all the time they operate under part 125, how does that fit into the picture?

Part 125 is getting pinched off, the FAA is trying to do away with them. There are 3 or so carriers left, IFL has gotten out of part 125 in the past year. I flew part 125 with a captain who was 67. He was always behind the ball and hated anyone who was younger than 30 and borderline dangerous. Too bad YIP that you might have to call Tahoma, C&M or Rhodes to get a job when Active kicks you out when you hit 60 or will you be "standard's manager".

 

[General Lee]

Gosh my first response from the General, I must be moving up in the world. There are still a few over 60 pilots flying DC-8's, 727's and DC-9's I see them all the time they operate under part 125, how does that fit into the picture?

There are probably Mall security guards that are over 60 too. They are probably allowed to do those jobs because they won't cause that much harm IF THEY SCREW UP. When I did my initial 727FE training at DL we had a couple "ropes" (real old pilot engineers---over age 60) and they were horrible. I jumpsat to Ireland on one of our L15s (back in 2000) and a ROPE was the FE and he continually missed things, enough so that the Captain had to babysit him. Are all pilots over 60 like that? Probably not. Overall are they more prone to mistakes? Yes. Rules are rules.


Bye Bye--General Lee

 

[Dizel8]

Well, YIP, there you go, Part 125 got your name written all over it

"Fly till you die" should be the APAAD slogan!

 

[Dizel8]

I jumpsat to Ireland on one of our L15s (back in 2000) and a ROPE was the FE and he continually missed thing

What an L15, is that a L1011-500?