Apaad Age 60 Change Push

[General Lee]

What an L15, is that a L1011-500?

Yes, and they had the range to do Europe and Hawaii from ATL and DFW. That jumpseat was nice too.


Bye Bye--General Lee

 

[pilotyip]

Already 62, very happy as a DA-20 pilot and check airman, but will be happier when this age 66 thing passes and I can go back to the DC-9. Isn't great we get to have our views, what a great country. Thanks guys. BTW if all you youngin's are lucky you to will make it to 62.

 

[Purpledog]

Not to segregate us even more, but, if it does change, which I doubt, hopefully we can get an all-cargo ops exclusion. Clearly circadian rythym disruption ages one much quicker than front side operations. All you have to do is look around the AOC at 2am. Just For Men and the Scooter Store should set up kiosks.

 

[Jim Smyth]

Ya, rules are rules....Blah,Blah,Blah! How about the guys in 1958? Before they made the back door rule of age 60 with no medical tests? Was that fair to them? No way HoseA!

They had an article in the USA today a few weeks back that talked about life expectancy. Average life expectancy in 1900 was like 50ish. In 1950 it rose to the mid 60's. Now its in the upper 70's.

So since this archaic rule was put into place in 1959 our average life expectancy has gone up at least 10 years! What will happen in another 50 years? We will routinely be living over 100. Should we still retire at 60 then too! Good luck in retirement eating dog food because you can no longer afford to buy regular food for 40 years! You will be a burden on society and your family at that point!

Give me a break........................It has to change some day. We are going to be required to work longer and longer as time goes on to survive and to collect some sort of benefits if theres any left by then. You younger guys should be especially concerned about this. If you personally dont like it if they ever do raise the age limit, then quit when you think its appropriate for your age! Dont drag the rest of us down with you. But some how I think when your turn comes you will be singing a different tune.

I dont want to have to get another job in another field at entry level wages with no benefits because you think I may be too old! If thats what you want then go be a Walmart greeter if your skills arnt there! For me I like what I do and when my time comes I will leave. But I want that to be my decision, not theres!

 

[Falcon Jet 1]

The rule was in place when you started, you knew it and should have planned accordingly. It wont change with just swapa and i wish they would stop wasting all of our money on emen's wish. you might get a little support if you old bastards would sit in the right seat after 60, thus not screwing up our upgrade.that is what they did with fe's at other airlines, you had yours now get over it.

 

[Hawker800]

First of all the police and fire professions do not compare with the pilot profession. I retired from law enforcement prior to entering the aviation profession. Could I still chase down young thugs, of course not. I sent my young guys and they did it with adsolute glee. I was experienced enough to know this and good team work took care of it. The physical requirements are alot different.
I have flown with several retired pilots over the age of 60. This is on our corporate jet. They did good! No problems. Not yet that age myself. I am smart enough to learn from these professionals. They still have alot to offer. If age 60 is unsafe, then it should be for all flying and not just a select type. That obviously is not the case.

I read here that some state that everyone knew the age 60 rule when they entered the business, and now age 60 folks should abide by it. That logic also applies to all work rules, pay schedules, and all the other things that pilots join unions for and try to change.

It is time to change the regs. Young people, you will get your Captains bars soon enough. Safe flying everyone!

 

[pilotyip]

Actually, the rule was kinda in place when I started back in 1965, but at that time ALPA was still fighting to get it repealed. This rule had nothing to do with safety, it was a deal between two W.W.II USAF Generals, AAL's C.R. Smith and Pete Quesdea (sp.?) the first head of the FAA. It was to get rid of high paid pilots at teh top of the seniority list. It was done in the name of safety, because who can be against safety.

 

[General Lee]

First of all the police and fire professions do not compare with the pilot profession. I retired from law enforcement prior to entering the aviation profession. Could I still chase down young thugs, of course not. I sent my young guys and they did it with adsolute glee. I was experienced enough to know this and good team work took care of it. The physical requirements are alot different.
I have flown with several retired pilots over the age of 60. This is on our corporate jet. They did good! No problems. Not yet that age myself. I am smart enough to learn from these professionals. They still have alot to offer. If age 60 is unsafe, then it should be for all flying and not just a select type. That obviously is not the case.

I read here that some state that everyone knew the age 60 rule when they entered the business, and now age 60 folks should abide by it. That logic also applies to all work rules, pay schedules, and all the other things that pilots join unions for and try to change.

It is time to change the regs. Young people, you will get your Captains bars soon enough. Safe flying everyone!

The Supreme Court disagrees with you. Age discrimination is age discrimination. If you change one, you have to change the other. Sorry, can't have it both ways. And, for those of you that aren't "financially" prepared and want to fly longer, there is corporate available to you (or YIP can hook you up to be a FA20 Check Airman). There are too many unemployeed pilots out there also, so leaving the "old people" as Captains just prolongs that.


Bye Bye--General Lee

 

[Chest Rockwell]

If it is a good rule, tell how you could justify putting it into place if there was no age 60 rule today.

"You knew the rules when you started" or "it is your fault that you didn't properly plan" - Give me a break. The rules in this business have always changed and evolved. Usually for the better, sometimes not. Some of the rule changes affect some more than others. grow up, that's life. I have no intention of working past 60, but to tell someone that they are fired because of their birthday and a rule that has no research or data to justify its existence is simply wrong.

 

[Jim Smyth]

The rule was in place when you started, you knew it and should have planned accordingly. It wont change with just swapa and i wish they would stop wasting all of our money on emen's wish. you might get a little support if you old bastards would sit in the right seat after 60, thus not screwing up our upgrade.that is what they did with fe's at other airlines, you had yours now get over it.

The rule was in place when I started. But it wasn't when my Dad started in 1941! Was it fair to him? I think not!

I did plan accordingly. My retirement will be just fine no matter what age they make it. I hope when your older that you planned appropriately also! Because there wont be as much there for you with the way Social Security and Medicare are going.

SWAPA is taking a stand, it was voted on many times always with the same outcome. Thanks for contributing to the cause!

I will continue to help support the reversal of the age discrimination that is currently going on.

 

[Tim47SIP]

No spin here

The rule was in place when you started, you knew it and should have planned accordingly.

So were the old crew rest rest guidlines. They got changed after the Little Rock crash, did you complain about that? What say you?

Sort of a screwed up logic don't you think?

 

[Falcon Jet 1]

Crew rest and age 60. apples and oranges. leave now old wise one. Swapa bamboozeled us on what the real motives were, put it up for vote now after all of this useless money spent and ill bet you have more than the 40 % membership participation, and even then it barely passed. We should be concerned with contract improvemnets and not sucking lobbyists off for the almighty age 60. You wont seem to answer about sitting in the right seat? Your ego wont let you go to other side or what? You would get a lot better push from all of us" the gear yankers" if you did, but your ego wont let you stepdown or stepover which is obvious with all prementioned motives.

 

[Jim Smyth]

Crew rest and age 60. apples and oranges. leave now old wise one. Swapa bamboozeled us on what the real motives were, put it up for vote now after all of this useless money spent and ill bet you have more than the 40 % membership participation, and even then it barely passed. We should be concerned with contract improvemnets and not sucking lobbyists off for the almighty age 60. You wont seem to answer about sitting in the right seat? Your ego wont let you go to other side or what? You would get a lot better push from all of us" the gear yankers" if you did, but your ego wont let you stepdown or stepover which is obvious with all prementioned motives.

You couldnt get a better contract improvement than 5 more years of income without tapping into your 401K/Profit sharing!

I already sat in the right seat like you are doing right now! At more than 1 airline mind you. I paid my dues, its your turn!

 

[Chest Rockwell]

It is not ego. It is right and wrong. The rule is wrong. There is no data to support it.

 

[wildbill]

I want the old geezer sitting beside me when things start going to heak and a handbasket. They have forgotten probably more than I will ever know. They are not video game trained and know how to fly by the seat of their pants in an emergency situation. Extend the age as long as they can pass the physical. My .02

 

[LocoPiloto]

You couldnt get a better contract improvement than 5 more years of income without tapping into your 401K/Profit sharing!

I already sat in the right seat like you are doing right now! At more than 1 airline mind you. I paid my dues, its your turn!

Now we know it is all about YOU!!!

Another form of pulling up the ladder.

Loco

 

[LocoPiloto]

I want the old geezer sitting beside me when things start going to heak and a handbasket. They have forgotten probably more than I will ever know. They are not video game trained and know how to fly by the seat of their pants in an emergency situation. Extend the age as long as they can pass the physical. My .02

First of all, don't sell yourself short. Second how does one fly the sidestick A320 by the seat of their pants? It is a video game, and you can not manipulate it like a 727.

Loco

 

[Jim Smyth]

Now we know it is all about YOU!!!

Another form of pulling up the ladder.

Loco

How is it all about me? Please explain.

 

[Spooky 2]

Part 125 is getting pinched off, the FAA is trying to do away with them. There are 3 or so carriers left, IFL has gotten out of part 125 in the past year. I flew part 125 with a captain who was 67. He was always behind the ball and hated anyone who was younger than 30 and borderline dangerous. Too bad YIP that you might have to call Tahoma, C&M or Rhodes to get a job when Active kicks you out when you hit 60 or will you be "standard's manager".

This statement is simply not true. There was an ARC in session most of 2004 and 2005 that is rewriting the rules for these operations. They will continue to flourish under the new regs that more closely resemble Part 135. There is absolutely no regulatory changes that would inhibit age 60+ pilots. There are over thirty-five Part 125 operation in existance today. Where you come up with the number 3 is anyone's guess. I have personnaly flown under Part 125 rules for the last 5+ years and found it to be quite satisfying both from a professional and financial point of view.

 

[Big Beer Belly]

You couldnt get a better contract improvement than 5 more years of income without tapping into your 401K/Profit sharing!

Jimmy ... your math is all fuzzy. If this is any sign of your keen analytical AGING mind then we are all in trouble! Here's a quick computation:

Say you are 40 now and delay your upgrade to 45. In those 5 years you would lose 100k/yr (salary and B-fund) at my airline. I don't have a FV calculator handy at the moment, but at 45 you would have given up approx 700k by not upgrading. 700k over 20 yrs (age 45-65) at market 50 yr avg of 10% (actually 10.3%, but we'll round) return would yield approx $5.5 MILLION!

You will need to be paid in excess of $1 MILLION/yr by your airline from age 60-65 to come close to breaking even! The young guys are getting conned by the old geezers into believing this is a good thing for the younger pilots. Quite the opposite, this is a huge financial loss for the young pilots!! <ng>

BBB

 

[wmudriver]

nevermind, off subject

 

[Jim Smyth]

Jimmy ... your math is all fuzzy. If this is any sign of your keen analytical AGING mind then we are all in trouble! Here's a quick computation:

Say you are 40 now and delay your upgrade to 45. In those 5 years you would lose 100k/yr (salary and B-fund) at my airline. I don't have a FV calculator handy at the moment, but at 45 you would have given up approx 700k by not upgrading. 700k over 20 yrs (age 45-65) at market 50 yr avg of 10% (actually 10.3%, but we'll round) return would yield approx $5.5 MILLION!

You will need to be paid in excess of $1 MILLION/yr by your airline from age 60-65 to come close to breaking even! The young guys are getting conned by the old geezers into believing this is a good thing for the younger pilots. Quite the opposite, this is a huge financial loss for the young pilots!! <ng>

BBB

Man, we really need to get you to negotiate our next contract!

5 years of additional income in either seat compounded over ones career is HUGH! Especially if you dont have to touch your 401K or profit sharring until Social Security or Medicare kicks in.

 

[Big Beer Belly]

5 years of additional income in either seat compounded over ones career is HUGH!

You be sure to say hi to old HUGH for me!

Now Jimmy ... we all know it won't be 5 more year's in the captain's seat for current FO's. Oh ... wait a minute ... you were talking about YOU benefitting from a rule change now that you are comfortably ensconced in the left seat ... oh I get it now!

Jim ... go play with the grandkids and call "The Scooter Store"! Did you know if they pre-qualify you for a new scooter and Medicare turns you down they'll give it to you for free? So your transportation for life has been arranged ... check that off your worry list! :beer:

BBB

 

[Jim Smyth]

I guess theres no way to talk to some people and I guess we can agree to disagree and this subject. While I know what works for me and my airline. Thats why SWAPA fights to change the rule, your airline may be different and thats fine too. Look where we are collectively at today. Great times indeed, enjoy your ride!

While you have the benefit of seeing my name, ratings and experience (my choice). I dont get the same considerations from you. You use snide comments to try to put people down. That just shows what kind of a person you are.

 

[Spooky 2]

I guess theres no way to talk to some people and I guess we can agree to disagree and this subject. While I know what works for me and my airline. Thats why SWAPA fights to change the rule, your airline may be different and thats fine too. Look where we are collectively at today. Great times indeed, enjoy your ride!

While you have the benefit of seeing my name, ratings and experience (my choice). I dont get the same considerations from you. You use snide comments to try to put people down. That just shows what kind of a person you are.

I found out as long time ago it was not worth arguing with BBB. His mind is made upand no amount of logic is going to change it. Give it up.

 

[Falcon Jet 1]

Screws me because if it is changed to another discrimanatory age like 65, then my plans of retiring at 55 are screwed due to the delayed upgrade. I wont argue that it is screwed up but that is the way it has always been, that is why CAPTAIN JIM if you opened your bifocal am flying eyes cuz u cant see to some other ideas such as the right seat option it could possibly get some momentum and pass, then you geriatric mofo's can stay away from your wife a little longer and we could help you get to the bar and do some jaeger bombs while having a good time with the stews.

 

[Big Beer Belly]

Jim ... old boy ... R-E-L-A-X! This is an anonymous message board ... one known for HUMOR and "lively" interchange. I found Dizel8's suggestion for your new ad slogan, "Fly till you Die!" to be hysterical! Purpledog's "Scooter Store" and "Just For Men" comments were right up there also. If you want to gather up your marbles and play elsewhere that's fine with me, but that was not my intent.

As far as identifying who I am, it is MY choice not to reveal that. I'm confused why that "offends" you.

Age 60 is so divisive an issue among pilots that our union leadership has intentionally remained neutral on the subject. I would even go so far as to postulate that age 60 is to pilots what the abortion debate is to society. Your suggestion that we "agree to disagree" is excellent. Both sides will continue to lobby their elected legislators and all the furloughed pilots will continue to struggle to provide for their families while current captains fight to obtain even greater wealth. <--- did you like the way I framed the debate?

Take care Jim,

your new message board pal BBB!

 

[Big Beer Belly]

I found out as long time ago it was not worth arguing with BBB. His mind is made upand no amount of logic is going to change it. Give it up.

Hey Spooky ... long time no hear from. Tell Jimbo what a loveable fuzzball I am. What happened to Spooky1? You didn't get banned, did you? Bad Spooky, bad Spooky!

 

[The Prussian]

Judging from some of the responses posted on this thread, perhaps five more years of maturity prior to upgrade might not be a bad idea!! Frantic name calling does not frame the debate, just the debater.

 

[Falcon Jet 1]

Judging from some of the responses posted on this thread, perhaps five more years of maturity prior to upgrade might not be a bad idea!! Frantic name calling does not frame the debate, just the debater.

Lighten up Francis! All tongue and cheek, but if I have to explain then nevermind.