Apaad Age 60 Change Push

[The Prussian]

Rep. Gibbons (a 61-year old former SWA pilot) is leading the charge in the House. A conflict of interest, or just a coincidence?

I don't think he was SWA.

 

[The Prussian]

-----

 

[The Prussian]

-----

 

[Flopgut]

--------------

 

[Chest Rockwell]

Screws me because if it is changed to another discrimanatory age like 65, then my plans of retiring at 55 are screwed due to the delayed upgrade. I wont argue that it is screwed up but that is the way it has always been, that is why CAPTAIN JIM if you opened your bifocal am flying eyes cuz u cant see to some other ideas such as the right seat option it could possibly get some momentum and pass, then you geriatric mofo's can stay away from your wife a little longer and we could help you get to the bar and do some jaeger bombs while having a good time with the stews.

It is screwed up and wrong so it should go away. You can still retire at 55. I doyubt that you will save all of your Captain's earnings towards retirement.

 

[Falcon Jet 1]

It is screwed up and wrong so it should go away. You can still retire at 55. I doyubt that you will save all of your Captain's earnings towards retirement.

Another reason not to take financial advice from a pilot!

 

[DC8 Flyer]

If and when the rule is changed, there should be no age limit. Any specified age for retirement, is age discrimination, period. For the sake of argument, when the age limit goes up, one of two things needs to happen.

1. Everyone who was forced to retire at 60 immediately regains their seniority and seat at their respective carrier. They would have to go through the same training someone coming back from furlough would have to do.

OR

2. No one over the age of 23 (ATP eligibility age) can retire after 60. All those coming up can have the longer careers.

This rule change should not be a all for one winfall for those that are 50+ and sitting in the left seat, it should either benefit EVERYONE equally (that includes those "discriminated out" and those like me who are still young and in the right seat) or it should benefit no one currently and be left for the next generation.

 

[Purpledog]

SWAPA is taking a stand,

I predict it would be a dramatically different stand if they had an A & B Fund. Greed, plain and simple, not age discrimination.

 

[Falcon Jet 1]

If and when the rule is changed, there should be no age limit. Any specified age for retirement, is age discrimination, period. For the sake of argument, when the age limit goes up, one of two things needs to happen.

1. Everyone who was forced to retire at 60 immediately regains their seniority and seat at their respective carrier. They would have to go through the same training someone coming back from furlough would have to do.

OR

2. No one over the age of 23 (ATP eligibility age) can retire after 60. All those coming up can have the longer careers.

This rule change should not be a all for one winfall for those that are 50+ and sitting in the left seat, it should either benefit EVERYONE equally (that includes those "discriminated out" and those like me who are still young and in the right seat) or it should benefit no one currently and be left for the next generation.

I forgot to bring up this point of view, if you argue to bring the retirees back, the most common selfish answer you get is" well that is the way the law is going to be written". See they cant stand whatit would be like being stuck in their seniority for however many years. That is a great way to let them see it from an FO's point of view. Capt Smyth? Anyone Pro Change?

 

[fr8doggie]

The rule was in place when I started. But it wasn't when my Dad started in 1941! Was it fair to him? I think not!

Oh, Really? Back in November you told me that your Dad became a PFE for AA in 1959 and continued sitting sideways for 35 more years. Retiring at the age of 64. It's really sad that you have to lie about your Father's career to furthur your sad agenda. As a PFE he would never have been subject to Age 60. What a loser you are.

Best Regards,
FR8-

 

[Flopgut]

--------------

 

[Jim Smyth]

Oh, Really? Back in November you told me that your Dad became a PFE for AA in 1959 and continued sitting sideways for 35 more years. Retiring at the age of 64. It's really sad that you have to lie about your Father's career to further your sad agenda. As a PFE he would never have been subject to Age 60. What a loser you are.

Best Regards,
FR8-

Ah yes, another one of the very classy guys that slings yet more insults at people on the board. You should of read the rest of my posts on the age 60 issue! I have never tried to hid any of my information or my families aviation past unlike many, many of the very anonymous Pilots around here!

My Dad worked for American airlines prior to 1959. First as a baggage handler during high school. He got out of high school and went to Oklahoma and went into the Army. He took a leave of absence from American while in the Army where he got his A&I ticket. He came back to American and turned wrenches at Midway Airport for 6 years "until" 1959 where he was accepted in the Flight Engineer program. He flew as a Flight Engineer from 1959 until he retired which was 35 more years sitting sideways. He had 46 combined years of seniority at American when he finally retired. So the rule wasn't there when he started was it? The guys that were all the old heads in his day were at American well prior to the Bull$hit rule that went into place in 1959. So you want to talk about fair? There is no fair there either.

Furthering my agenda? Yes I do have an opinion on this issue. Don't I get one? Yes, I do want it to change for the benefit of having a choice myself to either continue in my chosen profession a little longer while not dipping into my 401K. While not dipping into my Profit Sharing. While not having any medical coverage from the age of 60-65 and the list goes on and on. Your Airline may have wonderfull benefits after you turn 60 and are put out to pasture but we at SWA do not.

Retirement can be a very uncertain time. I don't believe that at age 60 I will be ready to go play Bingo every day. You may want this but I don't. I take care of myself and I plan on living a long time and don't want to be a burden on society or my kids!

You may want this rule to stay the same so you can get into the left seat or back on the property if your furloughed or even hired for that matter.
The rule was put into place without any medical studies that have been done showing degenerative conditions as we age. Do we digress, of course we do. But for all the guys I have seen retire in the last 10 years or so where I work there have only been a couple that were not very good any more. Most were excellent in there Piloting abilities. I cant think of any competent medical studies that have been done prior to 1959 or since that shows at what age we need to hang it up. Even if age 60 was appropriate in 1959 the age and life expectancy has gone up over 10 years since that rule was put into place with no change in our current retirement age when we have to leave.

I think we know who the real loser is here!

 

[Phaedrus]

I thought you said your peace (sic)?

 

[Phaedrus]

I thought you said your peace (sic)?

 

[Purpledog]

Your Airline may have wonderfull benefits after you turn 60 and are put out to pasture but we at SWA do not.

Instead of trying to screw the rest of us who don't won't to fly 'til you die, why don't you negotiate a B fund to carry you thru those years. Before you start, profitability, blah blah blah......Airtran is an LCC and has a damn good B plan (I wish ours was that high, or even close).

 

[Jim Smyth]

Anything is possible. We are going to be in a section 6 this year. I am not familiar with B funds per say. I have never operated under an airline that had them. Are these being held intact with the current pension problems that all the other airlines seem to be currently having? If they arnt, I highly doubt that we would try to go that route. I know that our Union has said that retirement medical benefits for our Pilots and there spouses are very high on there list of items during upcoming negotiations.

 

[Vastly Underemp]

It is purely amazing how brave some are when they can hide behind the internet

 

[Jim Smyth]

Looking back on the age 60 issue I do tend to get wrapped up myself about this issue. If I went to far I do apologize and didn't mean to offend any one. I found out about this forum a few years back from one of the new hires I had flown with. I find it entertaining and frustrating, sometimes in the same instance. I dont want to work until I die and if I won the lottery tomorrow I would quit flying and be gone once the check was deposited in the bank!

I am certainly not looking for a win fall for myself at the expense of someone else. However I don't want to get screwed over either and look out for myself and my family. I think we all can agree on that. You would think that with all of our collective minds we could come up with a better system for everyone.

The guys starting out now will have another 30+ years to contend with Aviation and the way its going now when they get to be 60 there may be no benefits there at all. Totally unacceptable IMO! We should have never allowed this to happen to our profession.

I don't have the answers but maybe someone smarter than me does and maybe someday we can come together for the good of our profession and make things right for everyone. We may even be able to use this message board to get ideas that may be passed on to the higher ups to make things better.

Some day the age will have to change. Maybe a gradual phase in of upping the age limit 1 year every 4 years or something like that so when a guy that starts out now will get to his full benefits of Social Security and Medicare at the current age of 67. So he will be covered no matter how bad the decisions of our airlines managements are at the time and we arnt thrown out in the streets with no coverage for ourselves or are families.

 

[Flopgut]

Jim, Spooky, age change contingent et al:

Your science and health debate does not answer the more moral and ethical debate. Seniority progression possibilities have put you where you are, now you want to see a complete betrayal of those same possibilities for others. It's disgusting. No one below you can move up as you did, and no one now gone can come back and salvage anything.

I have a hard time respecting your point of view. The day you started at SWA you knew what your range of earnings were going to be and you knew when you were going to retire. That range of earnings has only increased since you were hired. Probably doubled hasn't it? I have no idea how you can't be ready to retire at 60. You either don't know how to properly plan or you are greedy. It is one of the two. If you were not ready to accept the career earnings at SWA then you should have negotiated for more or not accepted the SWA job and held out for DAL or UAL. Matter of fact, maybe if you SWA folks had held out for an A or B plan back then DAL and UAL might still have thiers? (That discussion may be for another thread but I can tell you this: deep down, I know what your father believes) No, somehow we have digressed [used in proper context] to the point where someone like you says: Let ME work a longer time and YOU negotiate to work a shorter time and we will both stop negotiating for more money!? Unbelievable. You exploit seniority to your own benefit and I'm supposed to negotiate for something I already have (refers to your arguement that I can still leave at 60 if I negotiate for it).

You have your father's full career to use as an example. I have my father's shortened career to use. My father had to rebuild. I am all too familiar with what that involves, and I know it can be done. Two things I learned from my father: How to deal with uncertainty and that we can't continue to feed the greed imperative of your generation of pilots. Retirement age of 60 is one of the best ways to rehabilitate this industry.

 

[ivauir]

Capt Smyth,
I've been lurking and biting my tongue and lurking here for quite some time, but you never answered the question about the retirees.

You make several excellent points but you never aknowledge the fact that the currently proposed change will benefit certain folks immensly but delay upgrade and even recall for many others. We young guys are allowed opinions too; and it is going to be a lot harder to get this law to change without our support.

I've offered my idea for a compromise (over 60 pilots can be FOs), but I'm sure there are other ideas worth considering. I'm sympathetic to your cause, but it seems like you are too good to sit in my right seat. It also appears that you don't care about the retirees and you think nothing of delaying my upgrade. While there is lots of screaming about discrimination and lots of name calling (on both sides), in the end our stance on this issue can be broken down by birthday and furniture. Instead of trying to convince the younger crowd to support harming their careers OFFER A COMPROMISE.

As it stands now I am writting my representatives to oppose the current change.

 

[Jim Smyth]

I have said my peace and am done. Have a nice day.

 

[Falcon Jet 1]

I have said my peace and am done. Have a nice day.

Cant even open your eyes to discuss this. Talk about shortsighted.

 

[Clyde]

There are still a few over 60 pilots flying DC-8's, 727's and DC-9's I see them all the time they operate under part 125, how does that fit into the picture?

It takes a risky environment and propels it to the "extremely dangerous" level.

Let's see. 16 hours of duty, part 91 deadheads, and on-call most, if not all of the time. And the fact that Part 125 is tough even for someone in their 20's.

 

[Jim Smyth]

Cant even open your eyes to discuss this. Talk about shortsighted.

Its always the same half dozen guys with you being one of them. Why dont you act like a mature person, put your name and ratings up there for us all to see and stop hiding behind a computor screen.

 

[Clyde]

Already 62, very happy as a DA-20 pilot and check airman, but will be happier when this age 66 thing passes and I can go back to the DC-9. Isn't great we get to have our views, what a great country. Thanks guys. BTW if all you youngin's are lucky you to will make it to 62.

55 and I'm out. Sure, I may take a small hit on my company's pension plan, but I'm basing my retirement date on my money and my investments. Anything I get from the company is going to be 100% gravy.

Live below your means, finance your house for 15 years and pay it off in 10, buy an older car paid for (i.e., avoid car payments), and on paper, plan your retirement so you can cash out early. If you want to continue past that, you will have that option and you will be going to work because you want to and not because you have to. On paper, plan it like this: no company retirement and mandatory retirement age of 55. Then, make it happen.

I'm not letting anybody but ME tell me when I have to retire.

 

[Falcon Jet 1]

Its always the same half dozen guys with you being one of them. Why dont you act like a mature person, put your name and ratings up there for us all to see and stop hiding behind a computor screen.

I guess 99% of everybody on this board is immature then, and why do you need my ratings, you got abetter job your interviewing people for. i am a four year fo at swa so i guess im qualified to discuss on this board

 

[Occam's Razor]

The FAA has testified that they would have difficulty setting a "minimum standard" for a 121 pilot's reflexes and mental ability. They also indicate it would be difficult to test for that standard.

They oppose a rule change because 60 is a "one size fits all" age. The way it was established doesn't matter if it works. We don't have airliners crashing due to diminished cognitive skills, so it appears to be working.

Rep. Gibbons (a 61-year old former SWA pilot) is leading the charge in the House. A conflict of interest, or just a coincidence?

 

[Jim Smyth]

I guess 99% of everybody on this board is immature then, and why do you need my ratings, you got abetter job your interviewing people for. i am a four year fo at swa so i guess im qualified to discuss on this board

Its because I like to know who I am talking too, especially since we work for the same company. I hang out on allot of different boards and most of those boards people go by there real name and act accordingly. People act differently from behind a computer screen when they don't have to account for there words or actions. Flaming usually doesn't happen there like it does here. I just want to make sure that if I ever fly with you I know who you are beforehand so I don't accidentally buy you any beers or dinner at the bar!

 

[Jonny Sacko]

YOU DON"T HAVE TO GO HOME, BUT YOU CAN'T STAY HERE.


If you want to continue flying, no problem. Go to a Fractional and fly the world.

 

[bubbers44]

FJ1 won't be getting any free beers from anybody is my guess. He doesn't seem to hold back his opinion much.