FEDUPPILOT
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APA proposes pay scale for AE
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This is want APA wants in Section 6 talks:
***CLICK HERE***
They are willing to STRIKE over the RJ issue!!! It is their biggest tenstion with AMR at this point, and AMR wants relief from the ASM cap.
***CLICK HERE***
They are willing to STRIKE over the RJ issue!!! It is their biggest tenstion with AMR at this point, and AMR wants relief from the ASM cap.
Steve McCroskey
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Anaconda,
The way I understand it is that the AA/TWA furloughs would be recalled and the AE pilots would be merged onto the APA seniority list (probably stapled on the bottom). Seniority would then determine the aircraft flown. So to answer your question, with my limited and possibly incorrect knowledge, is both. The question that needs to be answered is, in the unlikely event managment agrees to this, would more AE pilots be furloughed? Or will the company resume turbo-prop routes that were cancelled as a result of the ASM cap enacted by the AA/TWA furloughs?
The way I understand it is that the AA/TWA furloughs would be recalled and the AE pilots would be merged onto the APA seniority list (probably stapled on the bottom). Seniority would then determine the aircraft flown. So to answer your question, with my limited and possibly incorrect knowledge, is both. The question that needs to be answered is, in the unlikely event managment agrees to this, would more AE pilots be furloughed? Or will the company resume turbo-prop routes that were cancelled as a result of the ASM cap enacted by the AA/TWA furloughs?
The way I read the agenda, was that pay rates for Eagle aircraft was one of the things to be negotiated. No one knows how seriously this will or won't be taken by the APA pilots and AMR management.
The APA leadership would like to get Eagle pilots over to the APA list by a means to be determined. Management will oppose this with everything the have. It would cost too many of the managers their jobs for them to want to do this no matter how much sense it makes.
Is the RJ issue something APA would strike over? Most certainly I would think. Is moving Eagle over to the APA list something they would strike over? Probably not, but who knows.
Just one poor Eagle pilots opinions though.
EagleATR
The APA leadership would like to get Eagle pilots over to the APA list by a means to be determined. Management will oppose this with everything the have. It would cost too many of the managers their jobs for them to want to do this no matter how much sense it makes.
Is the RJ issue something APA would strike over? Most certainly I would think. Is moving Eagle over to the APA list something they would strike over? Probably not, but who knows.
Just one poor Eagle pilots opinions though.
EagleATR
Draginass said:
You're right. (See I don't always disagree with you)
Actually my message has nothing to do with this. I notice that since ALPA couldn't get enough cards, they have now switched to the merger plan to get you on board. Looks like you may be joining the country club after all, eh?
I also agree with Draginass. While the proposal makes some sense, AMR managers undergo a lobotomy when they get hired and they have a surgically inserted knee-jerk NO! reaction to every employee suggestion. USAir managment sees something there to this idea - that's why they want to start RJ flying with USAir pilots. AMR won't agree because the big airline managers all (Delta, NW, USAir, United) think they need to whipsaw the regionals with alter-ego competitors in order to be profitable and underwrite the high salaries wide body pilots are making. Also, APA hurts their credibility by asking for the moon in their recent contract proposal.
ALPA, APA MECS at all the big airlines should embrace this idea before Southwest, Frontier and JetBlue type operations get any larger.
ALPA, APA MECS at all the big airlines should embrace this idea before Southwest, Frontier and JetBlue type operations get any larger.
Macdaddy -
First of all, AMR managers don't undergo lobotomies. They are schooled in business, finance, and labor relations . . . and are good at it - much better than you or I are. In the end, it all comes down to money, however. While some young/inexperienced pilots still hold an illusion that the aviation profession is "special," you should know that managements consider you cost units, period dot. Might as well be bus drivers, and I don't care if it's SWA, JB, or UAL. BTW, in my personal opinion, Seigle's plan is to turn U into a regional airline with much lower employee compensation. He's trying to lower the bar on the professional compensation, as are all the airlines, by using 9/11, at least while they can.
Secondly, you are either seriously delusional or a company shill if you think that if we acquiesed lower wide-body pay, the company would raise AE pay or integrate a AE into AAL. They have 12 more years of being able to whip AE pilots with no interference, and the AE pilots themselves gave AMR the whip.
Thirdly, if you think asking for the "moon" in opening negotiations hurts the APAs credibility, you obviously don't understand the negotiating process. What do you think company openers look like?
"ALPA, APA MECS at all the big airlines should embrace this idea before Southwest, Frontier and JetBlue type operations get any larger."
I don't understand what your point is with that statement. You're going to need to be less cryptic. I'm just a ignorant "overpaid" widebody pilot - something I'm sure you're trying to professionally avoid.
Surplus:
"I notice that since ALPA couldn't get enough cards, they have now switched to the merger plan to get you on board. Looks like you may be joining the country club after all, eh?"
By "merger" do you mean the APA's proposal for AE integration? If so, I don't think there's any corolation there.
As far as ALPA goes, there is significant support among some APA members to explore reaffliliating with ALPA, but most feel the timing is not right . . . right now. In a few years, I think it could be a real possibility. Personally, I'm not in favor of it, but I wouldn't fight it if a majority of my union brothers wanted it.
First of all, AMR managers don't undergo lobotomies. They are schooled in business, finance, and labor relations . . . and are good at it - much better than you or I are. In the end, it all comes down to money, however. While some young/inexperienced pilots still hold an illusion that the aviation profession is "special," you should know that managements consider you cost units, period dot. Might as well be bus drivers, and I don't care if it's SWA, JB, or UAL. BTW, in my personal opinion, Seigle's plan is to turn U into a regional airline with much lower employee compensation. He's trying to lower the bar on the professional compensation, as are all the airlines, by using 9/11, at least while they can.
Secondly, you are either seriously delusional or a company shill if you think that if we acquiesed lower wide-body pay, the company would raise AE pay or integrate a AE into AAL. They have 12 more years of being able to whip AE pilots with no interference, and the AE pilots themselves gave AMR the whip.
Thirdly, if you think asking for the "moon" in opening negotiations hurts the APAs credibility, you obviously don't understand the negotiating process. What do you think company openers look like?
"ALPA, APA MECS at all the big airlines should embrace this idea before Southwest, Frontier and JetBlue type operations get any larger."
I don't understand what your point is with that statement. You're going to need to be less cryptic. I'm just a ignorant "overpaid" widebody pilot - something I'm sure you're trying to professionally avoid.
Surplus:
"I notice that since ALPA couldn't get enough cards, they have now switched to the merger plan to get you on board. Looks like you may be joining the country club after all, eh?"
By "merger" do you mean the APA's proposal for AE integration? If so, I don't think there's any corolation there.
As far as ALPA goes, there is significant support among some APA members to explore reaffliliating with ALPA, but most feel the timing is not right . . . right now. In a few years, I think it could be a real possibility. Personally, I'm not in favor of it, but I wouldn't fight it if a majority of my union brothers wanted it.
Last edited:
Draginass said:
Dragin,
No, I wasn't talking about the AE stuff at all. I was talking about your potential reaffiliation with ALPA.
I remember you told me you were opposed. I also know that the year that ALPA had to get enough cards to call a vote has expired and they didn't make it.
So, they have changed strategy. Now they are going at it from the merger angle instead of the traditional NMB procedure. It is much easier to get a political group at APA to drum a meger between ALPA/APA than it is to get individual cards. If your Board approves it (political again) you will soon be back in the ALPA fold.
Then you can happily return to fighting with UAL and DAL over who runs the show. Isn't that why you all left in the first place?
Good strategy for ALPA. Back door coup de etats work good in unions too. See ya at the country club.
BTW, are you at liberty to post the rates that APA proposed for AE aircraft in your opener?
That's a real reach. Last union meeting I was in, the back doors were well guarded. Wishful thinking on some people's part.
Any company integration of AE into AAL would almost certainly have the APA as the bargaining agent, not ALPA. In addition, I'm almost certain that anything other than a staple would be totally unacceptable to the APA membership. Switching to ALPA could introduce some loss of control over the integration protocol. That in itself would kill any thoughts ALPA reaffiliation for the forseeable future. This, of course, is an academic discussion anyway, 'cause with AMR, it's got about a snowball's chance in h*ll of happening.
As far as pay rates for small jets go, I don't know where that's coming from. I've certainly not seen anything published anywhere on that, although I think that you can bet that scope still resides at it's rightful and usual place on the priority list.
Any company integration of AE into AAL would almost certainly have the APA as the bargaining agent, not ALPA. In addition, I'm almost certain that anything other than a staple would be totally unacceptable to the APA membership. Switching to ALPA could introduce some loss of control over the integration protocol. That in itself would kill any thoughts ALPA reaffiliation for the forseeable future. This, of course, is an academic discussion anyway, 'cause with AMR, it's got about a snowball's chance in h*ll of happening.
As far as pay rates for small jets go, I don't know where that's coming from. I've certainly not seen anything published anywhere on that, although I think that you can bet that scope still resides at it's rightful and usual place on the priority list.
Draginass:
I'm not delusional. By career, I'm a professional negotiator - I'm an attorney who took a stab at changing careers because I love to fly airplanes. Before 9/11 happened I thought it was a good time to try changing careers. The only thing that kept me out of the Air Force was my eyesight. I went to a big name law school and also have an undergraduate biz ad degree. None of those AMR managers are better educated than I am.
It IS STUPID to ask for the moon when the economic climate is undeniably poor. You (APA) lose credibility by asking for ridiculous things. Do I need to give examples of the proposal and embarass APA on this board? Do you want me to remind you how stupid you guys were in dealing with Judge Kendall? You guys cash the big paychecks and lose touch with reality, economic and otherwise.
Your attitude and conclusions are misplaced. I never suggested that you should agree to lower wide-body pay. You guys are in fact overpaid for the job you perform. You have managed to extort too much money from the big airlines and are in fact killing the goose that laid the golden egg. It will be a long time before the majors hire any new people. They will continue to lose business to Southwest, Frontier, Jetblue, Regional carriers, and fractional operators.
AMR managers are programmed to say "no" to any employee suggestions for improvement. That is not a good modern management practice. Good managers listen to the people they manage.
What I am suggesting that you say is too cryptic for you to understand is that it makes some sense to have "one list" at AMR, Delta, United and NW. By having all the jet flying done by the same airline would eliminate duplicate layers of managment. It would allow more flexibility in equipment changes for load changes. Dragin- have you noticed that Wall Street likes mergers, likes it when corporations get rid of extra management? Do you need me to draw a picture????
Merging to one list isn't likely to happen because the pilots at the Regional (Comair excluded, they showed they have stones) have allowed themselves to be hung out to dry - with ALPA paying out the rope. ALPA has screwed over the regional pilots and is hurting the profession as a whole by not doing more to remedy the situation. I'm old enough to remember when Lorenzo was around and ALPA did everything they could to fight B scales. Regionals are C minus pay scales and ALPA ain't doin squat to fight it.
I'll come back to this later, when I've got more time.
I'm not delusional. By career, I'm a professional negotiator - I'm an attorney who took a stab at changing careers because I love to fly airplanes. Before 9/11 happened I thought it was a good time to try changing careers. The only thing that kept me out of the Air Force was my eyesight. I went to a big name law school and also have an undergraduate biz ad degree. None of those AMR managers are better educated than I am.
It IS STUPID to ask for the moon when the economic climate is undeniably poor. You (APA) lose credibility by asking for ridiculous things. Do I need to give examples of the proposal and embarass APA on this board? Do you want me to remind you how stupid you guys were in dealing with Judge Kendall? You guys cash the big paychecks and lose touch with reality, economic and otherwise.
Your attitude and conclusions are misplaced. I never suggested that you should agree to lower wide-body pay. You guys are in fact overpaid for the job you perform. You have managed to extort too much money from the big airlines and are in fact killing the goose that laid the golden egg. It will be a long time before the majors hire any new people. They will continue to lose business to Southwest, Frontier, Jetblue, Regional carriers, and fractional operators.
AMR managers are programmed to say "no" to any employee suggestions for improvement. That is not a good modern management practice. Good managers listen to the people they manage.
What I am suggesting that you say is too cryptic for you to understand is that it makes some sense to have "one list" at AMR, Delta, United and NW. By having all the jet flying done by the same airline would eliminate duplicate layers of managment. It would allow more flexibility in equipment changes for load changes. Dragin- have you noticed that Wall Street likes mergers, likes it when corporations get rid of extra management? Do you need me to draw a picture????
Merging to one list isn't likely to happen because the pilots at the Regional (Comair excluded, they showed they have stones) have allowed themselves to be hung out to dry - with ALPA paying out the rope. ALPA has screwed over the regional pilots and is hurting the profession as a whole by not doing more to remedy the situation. I'm old enough to remember when Lorenzo was around and ALPA did everything they could to fight B scales. Regionals are C minus pay scales and ALPA ain't doin squat to fight it.
I'll come back to this later, when I've got more time.
Is that the best you can do? How about a reply on the merits?
If they read this, I'll bet Skydiverdriver and the other RJDC guys are laughing their you-know-what-off that Draginass is stumped.
I'm not overpaid. I earn what I make. If I'm lazy, I make less. If I work hard and am productive, I make more.
If they read this, I'll bet Skydiverdriver and the other RJDC guys are laughing their you-know-what-off that Draginass is stumped.
I'm not overpaid. I earn what I make. If I'm lazy, I make less. If I work hard and am productive, I make more.
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