APA: No lump sums for retiring American Airlines pilots now

[zonker]

Yeah, that's the answer. You ever get tired of acting like a fool?

If anything, this bk and pension debacle perfectly illustrates that being willing to retire has nothing to do with money or income, or what the exact age limit is. Last month these pilots had their retirements intact and were almost 4 years into a fresh retirement age increase. They chose not to leave and it cost them. At what point do you think old pilots ought to take some responsibility for their decisions?

BRAVO!!!

and well said.

 

[ualdriver]

The company will be delighted to continue to fund a frozen pension! No problem at all. The thing is, new hires won't be included, ever. It's like built in B scale. And, the company gets to use the funding obligations against the entire pilot group's contract at the negotiating table.

F-ing old guys love it too. They won't lift a finger for another pilot, but they sure as hell love it when the whole group has pull for them. Trust me, I'm in this situation. Terminate the plan! Do NOTHING special for the old guys. Everyone will be better off.

I don't agree with that. The company would not be delighted with a frozen pension. If the pension is frozen, they will have to continue to keep it funded AND while in bankruptcy, they're going to have to bring it up to whatever minimum funding level is required by law. I don't know how much it is underfunded currently, but I thought I read somewhere that it was underfunded by a few hundred million. Maybe an AA guy knows. AMR went into the bankruptcy with quite a bit of cash. Maybe the APA guys will be able to cut a deal. We'll see.

I would bet money that if AMR has their way, they'll say they can't afford to fund it and then the PBGC will take it over. That is the worst case scenario for the AMR guys.

 

[ualdriver]

They need to turn Arpeys retirement over to the PBGC. I would worship any Bankruptcy Judge that ordered it . I also live in a fantasy world filled with Unicorns and strippers.

If the pensions are terminated, EVERYONE will lose their pensions, including management. If Arpey has a pension and it was not held outside of AMR, his is gone too. If it makes you feel better, when my airline went through its bankruptcy and the pensions were taken over by the PBGC, lots of management personnel got screwed, just like everyone else.

By the way, Arpey already has a new job with his buddy Bethune. He was unemployed for about a day. He probably will be completely unaffected personally whether he keeps his pension or not. It's nice being the King, huh?

 

[warbirdfinder]

Don't be too sure management would loose their pensions also. At Delta they protected the pensions of 34 upper management.
And don't believe you will get much from the PBGC.

 

[waveflyer]

If the pensions are terminated, EVERYONE will lose their pensions, including management. If Arpey has a pension and it was not held outside of AMR, his is gone too. If it makes you feel better, when my airline went through its bankruptcy and the pensions were taken over by the PBGC, lots of management personnel got screwed, just like everyone else.

By the way, Arpey already has a new job with his buddy Bethune. He was unemployed for about a day. He probably will be completely unaffected personally whether he keeps his pension or not. It's nice being the King, huh?

Yeah, but didn't the same mgmt team stay through bk? Then award themselves a 15% ownership of UAL? Not too worried about pensions with that type of power

 

[laker4284]

The General's source s wildly off base. Payouts from PBGC is nowhere close to 80 grand and a spousal survivor is NOT cut off from the bennies if a survivor annuity choice is chosen.

Max PBGC payout for 2012: age 65 - $4653/ survivor annuity $4188; age 55 $2094/ survivor annuity $1884.

This is what the AA guys and dolls are staring at and what the UAL and US Airways peeps have already suffered through.
Stick to the facts. It's all in the PBGC tables and readily available on line.

 

[laker4284]

Pension underfunding at AA is jot in the millions; it's in the BILLIONS for the 130,000 employees - somewhere between 5 and 10 billion according to Reuters and another source. I' ve got to split but will track down accurate numbers later today. BEWARE the rumor boards as they are full of misinformation!

 

[HA25]

We just had 13 retirements today, Dec 1. Bummer for them and for those who didn't pull the plug earlier....

Now the discussion is leaning towards freezing the A Fund or just terminating it and getting a payout (a la UAL/DAL.) Any words of wisdom on this for those of you who've been through it?

I have two close friends at AA.. one pushing 58 that's in the 1000's, and the other only 50 in the 300's.... the younger stuck it out cause it made sense to.. the older punched out 2 months ago and hated having to do it.... at least he did the right thing financially now and feels a bit better about giving away 6-7 years of flying/earning.

this is so Sad... I pray there is justice for APA pilots at the end of the tunnel.

 

[HA25]

Pension underfunding at AA is jot in the millions; it's in the BILLIONS for the 130,000 employees - somewhere between 5 and 10 billion according to Reuters and another source. I' ve got to split but will track down accurate numbers later today. BEWARE the rumor boards as they are full of misinformation!

and nothing against other work groups but this goes to a point I made earlier about one of the things broken about airlines today.... and yes, I know WN has all of this too, but WN has major cost advantages as well with their business model.

The fact that people spend 30 years working the ramp, or working the gate and get pensions is ludicrous. These are jobs, not careers.... people should do this work while going to school, maybe as a 2nd job/income or a wife returning to work after raising kids.. not as a primary career.. the massive costs that airlines have to bear just to operate the most basic and unskilled parts of their operation are unrealistic all while trying to properly compensate pilots and mechanics the true licensed and experienced professionals that need to be well compensated;.

 

[densoo]

I have sympathy for the guys who were too far from retirement to make the call. But for the guys who were 55-65 and already had a 7-figure nut in that plan, to NOT pull the trigger when your company fails to make money in the best of times AND the stock is down 90%, that's just plain stupid. Gambling is stupid. And that's what they did, gambled that all would be OK.

The problem is that very few think long term, but can only think short term. When most look at their monthly expenses they essentially say to themselves that they need to keep getting that monthly income, now. If you retire that monthly income stops and you've got to start managing a fixed pot of money that's got to last you and your family to the end. Very few are willing to face this even in the face of obvious signs that you are about to lose that lump sum that could have, ironically, secured your future. They want that next paycheck to pay bills.