APA: No lump sums for retiring American Airlines pilots now

[laker4284]

Assuming your $1.7million lump is correct (I have no reason to doubt your number) and a pilot chose to work until 65 at $250K/yr, that pilot paid/is paying $450K or $90K/yr for the privelege to work beyond age 60.
Revenge is a dish best served cold. That was delicious.

For those under age 60, I'm sorry for the loss of your pension. For those over 60 who chose to stay, I offer you this youtube link: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=X6xSDBd4XfQ

Privilege?

Working to 65 is the law. If a pilot is qualified, healthy and passes the check ride why not?

Pretty pathetic to see you gloating over the misfortune of others.

 

[zonker]

Privilege?

Working to 65 is the law. If a pilot is qualified, healthy and passes the check ride why not?

Pretty pathetic to see you gloating over the misfortune of others.

Did you ever consider the misfortune of those that were permanently furloughed by the rule?

Gummer tards just never get it.

 

[The Prussian]

and nothing against other work groups but this goes to a point I made earlier about one of the things broken about airlines today.... and yes, I know WN has all of this too, but WN has major cost advantages as well with their business model.

The fact that people spend 30 years working the ramp, or working the gate and get pensions is ludicrous. These are jobs, not careers.... people should do this work while going to school, maybe as a 2nd job/income or a wife returning to work after raising kids.. not as a primary career.. the massive costs that airlines have to bear just to operate the most basic and unskilled parts of their operation are unrealistic all while trying to properly compensate pilots and mechanics the true licensed and experienced professionals that need to be well compensated;.

Nothing against other work groups?....really..(!!!?!?)...your thoughts in the following paragraph sound pretty heartless, if not judgmental, coming from one with a liberal mindset (correct me if I take you wrong). I consider myself solidly conservative, but I think your collection of thoughts right there sound very cavalier and arrogant. Why shouldn't other work groups deserve retirement benefits, just like those "annointed" professionals?...kinda makes you sound like the management types you're so strongly railing against. Everyone has their own gifts...not all the same. They also have every right to live their lives the way they see fit, as do you.

 

[Benjamin Dover]

How could these guys NOT see what was happening? Now some will have to fly until 65, and lose money in the end for their loved ones. Oooooops.

One more month.......I love those Buenos Aires layovers......ONE MORE MONTH..... OOOOOPS.



Bye Bye---General Lee

If I remember correctly, 100 or more Delta captains chose to not take the $1M plus lump sum circa 2005. How could those guys NOT see what was happening? I had one of these dudes on the j.s. back then blaming ALPA for bad info. Really? All that summer ALPA was sending out the warning flares. Most tail draggers went out July/Aug 2005. Then Sep 2005 BK and the rest is history as pension went to PBGC.

Over 100 Delta pilots passed up over $1 Million lump sum payouts then.

So GL, save us all the lecture. Same drill happened at Delta. I was there then too - before I quit. I even met one of those guys. Number one ATL 767 ER captain now. Told me how much dough he passed up. Smugly told the former NW A-320 captain flying our flight the same thing (two j.s. up there so more audience for this guy). Then he told us he had done so well with his personal investments that he didn't need that million dollars so he figured he would stay and fly. Now he just flies for fun - doesn't really need the money. As he jumpseats while his wife grabs the only non-rev seat available on the flight since he has that 30+ years seniority and has seniority based non-rev. And it was going home from his son's wedding! Buy a ticket f-ing cheapskate. Number one captain and can't afford a rt ticket BWI-MDW for your son's wedding?

Sorry

 

[AA717driver]

There were those on the union board blaming APA for not informing them of the impending filing. APA didn't have a clue (other than a couple reps from a midwestern base that have been through a couple bankruptcies whose warnings they disregarded)

Those who didn't leave when they had the chance range from those who didn't want to leave money on the table to those who believed that 'since nothing bad HAD ever happened in their careers, nothing bad WOULD ever happen'.

This generally blindsided even the most cynical and suspicious.

TC

 

[bluefin]

did you ever consider the misfortune of those that were permanently furloughed by the rule?

Gummer tards just never get it.

amen brother!

 

[CitationLover]

We just had 13 retirements today, Dec 1. Bummer for them and for those who didn't pull the plug earlier....

Now the discussion is leaning towards freezing the A Fund or just terminating it and getting a payout (a la UAL/DAL.) Any words of wisdom on this for those of you who've been through it?

A "freeze" simply stops your benefit accruals. What your accrued benefit is today at normal retirement is what it would be at retirement.

If they "terminate" the plan, in all likelihood active participants would have their benefits capped by the PBGC maximum annuity amounts reduced from the PBGC's normal retirement age (not an airline pilots one which is usually 60). In a plan termination they divide the liabilities up into buckets of priority. They then take the assets and cover bucket 1, 2, etc. until they run out of assets, this is typically in the bucket that covers actives whose pensions are capped by the PBGC maximums.

You wouldn't get paid out until you retire and commence your benefit.

 

[CitationLover]

Somehow I think that management has pension money not technically called "pension" which will be well protected no matter what. They know how to take of themselves.

Yes, they're nonqualified plans and are not funded due to tax implications. It's basically a contractual promise to pay someone. Guess what happens to that contract during a bankruptcy?

 

[Andy]

Privilege?

Working to 65 is the law. If a pilot is qualified, healthy and passes the check ride why not?

Pretty pathetic to see you gloating over the misfortune of others.

Thanks to age 65, I've been on furlough since 22 April 2009. I have no pity for those over age 60 who just lost their pensions. They overplayed the hand that they were dealt.
Frankly, after watching multiple other carriers go BK over the last decade, they were just plain stupid. And very greedy. The number of news reports over the last 3+ months talking about an AMR BK made this the least surprising BK in quite a while.
No, I don't feel any guilt for smiling at their 'misfortune'.

 

[flythere]

The fact that people spend 30 years working the ramp, or working the gate and get pensions is ludicrous. These are jobs, not careers.... people should do this work while going to school, maybe as a 2nd job/income or a wife returning to work after raising kids.. not as a primary career.. the massive costs that airlines have to bear just to operate the most basic and unskilled parts of their operation are unrealistic all while trying to properly compensate pilots and mechanics the true licensed and experienced professionals that need to be well compensated;.

Why is that so ludicrous??

Those people sacrifice and work just as hard as the rest of us! Because they don't have a degree or are responsible for hundreds of lives does not negate the hard work and effort they put into making an airline successful. Lets face it, without dedicated people doing everthing from checking people in to driving the turd hearst, there is no profit! They all help make the place run which equals profit, which equals paycheck!!

These jobs help stimulate the economy, and if a person wants to dedicate themselves to an employer long term, they should be rewarded.

I'm seeing a trend in your posting here, you are sounding more and more like an elitist, like you are above the average person because you are a pilot? Are you a pilot? Are you like a sky-god or something??

Do you run that agent orange web-site, with that manifesto posted?

It seems to keep coming back to that "instant gratification" thing??

 

[HA25]

Nothing against other work groups?....really..(!!!?!?)...your thoughts in the following paragraph sound pretty heartless, if not judgmental, coming from one with a liberal mindset (correct me if I take you wrong). I consider myself solidly conservative, but I think your collection of thoughts right there sound very cavalier and arrogant. Why shouldn't other work groups deserve retirement benefits, just like those "annointed" professionals?...kinda makes you sound like the management types you're so strongly railing against. Everyone has their own gifts...not all the same. They also have every right to live their lives the way they see fit, as do you.

Nothing liberal about me... I march to my own drummer, and subscribe to no particular philosophy on all issues.

This is UNSKILLED work... no different than waiting on tables, pumping gas in Oregon, or cleaning the high school for a janitorial contractor. Their wages and benefits are hugely inflated by their unions and frankly make it very hard for the true professionals such as pilot, mechanics and middle managers to earn the wage they should for the time and effort invested in getting to their respective posts. This wasn't the case in the early years thru the 70's in the industry... it wasn't until the Flight Attendants unionized that the rest also followed suit... but for me, F/A's on down, should be all lumped into the category of "unskilled" labor and paid accordingly.

If that offends you, then so be it.

 

[HA25]

Why is that so ludicrous??

Those people sacrifice and work just as hard as the rest of us! Because they don't have a degree or are responsible for hundreds of lives does not negate the hard work and effort they put into making an airline successful. Lets face it, without dedicated people doing everthing from checking people in to driving the turd hearst, there is no profit! They all help make the place run which equals profit, which equals paycheck!!

These jobs help stimulate the economy, and if a person wants to dedicate themselves to an employer long term, they should be rewarded.

I'm seeing a trend in your posting here, you are sounding more and more like an elitist, like you are above the average person because you are a pilot? Are you a pilot? Are you like a sky-god or something??

Do you run that agent orange web-site, with that manifesto posted?

It seems to keep coming back to that "instant gratification" thing??

i refer you to my above answer...

I am what I am... you can label me what ever makes you feel good.

 

[flythere]

Nothing liberal about me... Their wages and benefits are hugely inflated by their unions

so would you say unions are somewhat to blame for AA's troubles?? Were pilot wages artificially inflated prior to 9/11? Was it Delta that had a clause in their contract that they would be the highest paid in the industry? It's been a while, but I thought there was something like that pre-911, anyone, anyone??

 

[HA25]

so would you say unions are somewhat to blame for AA's troubles?? Were pilot wages artificially inflated prior to 9/11? Was it Delta that had a clause in their contract that they would be the highest paid in the industry? It's been a while, but I thought there was something like that pre-911, anyone, anyone??

I simply said a component in ALL airline cost problems is the OVER unionization of said airlines... namely the non-skilled "job" labor..

That said, 90% of the problem lies in other areas... from lack of stable market (due to deregulation) to today's poor managers coming from various backgrounds in finance and banking, and the various business schools.. Wharton, Harvard, etc...

it's far to complex for any one single factor..

 

[waveflyer]

Flythere- I've been critical of many of your posts- so an olive branch- bc this is well said- "Honor Hard Work" is a statement I live by- and let's think a minute about what a pension is- it is a responsible part of a negotiated deal- that's group will take lesser money today for retirement benefits in the unguaranteed future so that they can be financially responsible for themselves in their older age. It isn't welfare- it is earned over a lifetime of work- laying a % of an income aside is responsible. The irresponsibility comes in underfunding these pensions and mgmt nationwide across industries deciding these are not real agreements and can be turned over to the taxpayers bc they didn't do their job and manage it correctly and responsibly.

Why is that so ludicrous??

Those people sacrifice and work just as hard as the rest of us! Because they don't have a degree or are responsible for hundreds of lives does not negate the hard work and effort they put into making an airline successful. Lets face it, without dedicated people doing everthing from checking people in to driving the turd hearst, there is no profit! They all help make the place run which equals profit, which equals paycheck!!

These jobs help stimulate the economy, and if a person wants to dedicate themselves to an employer long term, they should be rewarded.

I'm seeing a trend in your posting here, you are sounding more and more like an elitist, like you are above the average person because you are a pilot? Are you a pilot? Are you like a sky-god or something??

Do you run that agent orange web-site, with that manifesto posted?

It seems to keep coming back to that "instant gratification" thing??

 

[waveflyer]

Sorry FMS- again southwest proves that statement wrong-
86% of all our groups are unionized- each employee is expected to lead and be responsible for the whole- and be led by the one mgmt group who does in fact, "LEAD".

Sorry- but as Ty Webb said so well on another thread- Americans want to work hard and EARN their money- execs have a few lawyers each negotiating their deals- why can't workers have representation in private companies? Competition will keep them balanced- but in this decade's airline labor story- it's my opinion that you must be out of your mind to think that labor is the problem when WN has been successful with higher #'s of union members.

 

[BillJBrake]

Here's how it was explained to me. Those pilots, especially over age 60 with 25 years or more with the company could have had a possible lump sum payout of let's say $1.7 million. That's cash in their hands, to do whatever they want. Now, they may still get a payout from the PBGC, maybe up to $80K a year, but as soon as they die, that stops. That also means their kids or 4th hot Brazilian wife don't get to have any left overs. Had they taken the $1.7 million, they could have given that to their kids and/or hot wife upon their death. NOT ANYMORE.

How could these guys NOT see what was happening? Now some will have to fly until 65, and lose money in the end for their loved ones. Oooooops.

One more month.......I love those Buenos Aires layovers......ONE MORE MONTH..... OOOOOPS.



Bye Bye---General Lee

You're on the B764? I thought you were on the B763?

 

[HA25]

Sorry FMS- again southwest proves that statement wrong-
86% of all our groups are unionized- each employee is expected to lead and be responsible for the whole- and be led by the one mgmt group who does in fact, "LEAD".

Southwest has MASSIVE competitive advantages due to their unique business model... namely one type, one training program, no hub/spoke, no feeder.. etc.. that is subsidizing the crazy pay for F/As and gate people.... but at least int he case of WN, due to the stability of the job and slightly better pay than others, the quality of people is decent for the investment put forth.

 

[BillJBrake]

I heard that the guys that retired in the 90 days prior to the BK filing may or may not get their checks since it takes about 90 days to cut the lump sum checks. Is this true?

The guy that I know, went Sept 1 and got his money. Was one of the most senior B772 captains, planned on going at least another year, possibly 2 or 3 more. Now he's so glad he went....and loving retirement!

 

[slaquer5]

You're on the B764? I thought you were on the B763?

Gen cheese is on whatever Microsoft has a program for. It is some kid that lives in the basement of its parents house.

Gen cheese is like the pathetic version of wedding crashers. The guy living in his moms basement.