APA is the only Union to not sell out mainline jobs to RJ's

[Matrix]

AP
Republic Amends Delta, UAL Agreements
Tuesday August 28, 10:17 am ET Republic to Replace 16 Delta Planes, Add 10 to United's Fleet
NEW YORK (AP) -- Regional air carrier Republic Airways Holdings Inc. amended services agreements with Delta Air Lines Inc. and UAL Corp. regarding aircraft for each carrier.
Republic will replace 16 of Delta's 70-seat Embraer 170 aircraft with 76-seat Embraer 175s during the second half of 2008 and first quarter of 2009. The planes are part of the Delta Connection fleet. It will also add 10 70-seat Embraer 170s to UAL's United Express-branded fleet. Republic operates regional flights for several major airlines, including Delta, UAL, AMR Corp., Continental Airlines Inc., US Airways Group Inc. and Frontier Airlines Holdings Inc.


Delta, United, and Northwest are all sellouts! Come on ALPO, do something.

 

[BoilerUP]

What's the price of buying back scope?

Is it even for sale?

And are mainline pilots willing to pay it?

 

[75M]

I dunno Matrix, Eagle is pretty big, in fact they're technically a Major in and of themselves. BTW, have you seen how much "American Connection" (CHQ and TSA) there is in STL. They sold out mainline jobs a long time ago, they just launch two 50-seaters instead of one 100-seater.

 

[Hutchman]

I thought Eagle had 70 seaters?

 

[145BOSS]

Continental is the only airline not to have a 70-seat RJ in their colors. The aircraft Republic operates for them are 50-seat CRJ's. Scope is the one and only good part of the Continental contract.

 

[Matrix]

I dunno Matrix, Eagle is pretty big, in fact they're technically a Major in and of themselves. BTW, have you seen how much "American Connection" (CHQ and TSA) there is in STL. They sold out mainline jobs a long time ago, they just launch two 50-seaters instead of one 100-seater.

Most experts agree that the 50 seat market is dwindling, not growing. Plust the EMB135/145's are not airframes that will fly near as long as a Boeing and I don't see many replacements for that size in large quantities being offered by manufacturers. Plus as you can see from UAL, DAL, NWA that launch largers RJ's with first class become preferred over a much smaller/crunched EMB135 and AMR will have a problem.

 

[ultrarunner]

I thought Eagle had 70 seaters?

They do. They launch a 70 seater and a 35 seater!

Takes care of that whole nasty scope thing!

 

[Matrix]

I thought Eagle had 70 seaters?

They do have 25 CRJ700's, which is barely a blip for Eagle. Whereas the aforementioned carriers are adding larger EMB 175's now. And with the new APA leadership, I believe anything larger WILL be flown by mainline pilots. They are ready to fight!

 

[michael707767]

What's the price of buying back scope?

Is it even for sale?

And are mainline pilots willing to pay it?

the sad thing is once you give up scope, its gone. DALPA, for example, gave up 76 seat jets. The cost to get them back on property would be so high it will never happen.

Isn't it interesting that the airline with the tightest scope (CAL) is one of the most profitable and also has the fastest upgrade time.

 

[bravodude]

What's the price of buying back scope?

Is it even for sale?

And are mainline pilots willing to pay it?

getting general to agree he f'd up. once he can agree to it with the rest of the pilot group than maybee they can try. otherwise its the same old thing my dady is better tan your dady.

 

[PCL_128]

What's the price of buying back scope?

Is it even for sale?

And are mainline pilots willing to pay it?

Michael is correct. Once you give up scope, it's practically impossible to get it back. The cost to negotiating capital is astronomical. The best that can be hoped for at this point is no further erosion of scope language. Trying to get it back just isn't going to happen.

 

[ironspud]

APA not only gave up scope. They gave up an entire airline. It's now called American Eagle.

 

[IslandDriver]

Conntinental will have 74 seat q's in their fleet Jan 1...CJC will operate them...I guess they are not RJ's but they ar TP's

 

[Ex737Driver]

Conntinental will have 74 seat q's in their fleet Jan 1...CJC will operate them...I guess they are not RJ's but they ar TP's

76 seat.....and those are allowed by the current scope clause. Management approached the union in April about allowing Republick to fly up to 100 of the EMB170's. They had a very flashy and wordy 45 minute powerpoint presentation where they promised the CAL pilot group 1/2 of the profit from the 170 operation. The union listened and quietly added that any 70 seat jet at CAL would be flown by CAL pilots on the CAL senority list.

 

[Flyby1206]

Its like losing your virginity. Better make it a special moment when you lose it, because it aint coming back! I hope AA doesn't lose it, but if they do you can guarantee it will be without any lube.

 

[aa73]

Believe me, we are very aware of the scope threat, having had so many thousands of guys furloughed in the past few years. I think the majority of the membership is VERY aware of what could happen. But look at it this way: It is ours to give up. Per the current contract, AA owns all 51 seat and above flying (except the 25 grandfathered AE CRJ70s.)

Many folks have suggested that the senior guys will sell out scope in exchange for keeping the pension. I don't believe it for a second because the senior guys will lose a lot of seniority if we do that - the ripple effect up the seniority list from laying off so many junior pilots.

We may not agree with the current EMB190 payscales at other airlines, but I am very thankful that DAL and US have secured E190 flying, albeit at very low wages. My theory on this has always been: get the jet on the property, we can always negotiate the pay up from there. Although in our case, we already own that flying anyway, so it's a moot point. All we need is to negotiate a pay scale for the new aircraft, and IMO, Green book rates (our last small jet, the F100 - 86 seats - was $139/hr for 12yr CA) are what we should be flying them for.

 

[Cleared Direct]

But look at it this way: It is ours to give up. Per the current contract, AA owns all 51 seat and above flying (except the 25 grandfathered AE CRJ70s.)

Actually, per the contract Eagle can add an additional 25 CRJ700s on top of the 25 they already have. They have not exercised those additional 25 options, and they never will. Eagle can't even staff the planes they have now. They have turned down flying that AA want them to do, and they will be parking planes in early 2008 due to lack of pilots.

Look for the Saabs to go, and even then possibly flying contracted out to new American Connection carriers in 2008.

 

[labbats]

The sky is falling!

Eagle will keep on keeping on, and even PBs fear grenades have been hard to come by lately. At least AA is getting the flowbacks moving back to mainline.

If I'm not mistaken, the whole reason you have Republic and GoJets is because of AA and the scope clause that Chautauqua and Trans States signed respectively. Now with a simple name change it doesn't apply and the 70 seater is up and running. Gotta love those lawyers.

 

[stlflyguy]

Hey man, that's a bunch of Indians you have in your A/C flown! How'd you let a lowly Merlin get in there?

stlflyguy

 

[stillflyn]

AP
Republic Amends Delta, UAL Agreements
Tuesday August 28, 10:17 am ET Republic to Replace 16 Delta Planes, Add 10 to United's Fleet
NEW YORK (AP) -- Regional air carrier Republic Airways Holdings Inc. amended services agreements with Delta Air Lines Inc. and UAL Corp. regarding aircraft for each carrier.
Republic will replace 16 of Delta's 70-seat Embraer 170 aircraft with 76-seat Embraer 175s during the second half of 2008 and first quarter of 2009. The planes are part of the Delta Connection fleet. It will also add 10 70-seat Embraer 170s to UAL's United Express-branded fleet. Republic operates regional flights for several major airlines, including Delta, UAL, AMR Corp., Continental Airlines Inc., US Airways Group Inc. and Frontier Airlines Holdings Inc.


Delta, United, and Northwest are all sellouts! Come on ALPO, do something.

I know that the line in the sand is 70 seats at UAL. The UA pilots will never give away another seat. We never should have given UA express the 70 seats in the first place but we have Paul Whiteford to thank for that.

Stillflyn

 

[aa73]

Actually, per the contract Eagle can add an additional 25 CRJ700s on top of the 25 they already have. They have not exercised those additional 25 options, and they never will.

Thanks, I stand corrected.

 

[Matrix]

The sky is falling!

Eagle will keep on keeping on, and even PBs fear grenades have been hard to come by lately. At least AA is getting the flowbacks moving back to mainline.

If I'm not mistaken, the whole reason you have Republic and GoJets is because of AA and the scope clause that Chautauqua and Trans States signed respectively. Now with a simple name change it doesn't apply and the 70 seater is up and running. Gotta love those lawyers.

We're not talking about Republic and GoJet (not GoJets). We are talking about the scope of the Majors in the traditional sense. It doesn't matter about the regional lawyers and name changes, because ultimately NO-ONE can fly anything over 50 seats for American other than mainline pilots (the exception is Eagles 50 crj700's of which only 25 are flying). Any regional airlines scope doesn't affect any mainlines flying, it' s the scope of the mainline pilots, hello...McFly....
CAL also has good scope in that they allow nothing over 50 seat jets, but can allow up to 79 seat turboprops.

 

[labbats]

I see. Don't forget the Executive certificate flying the ATRs out of MIA and SJU for AA. Those are greater than 50 seats, albeit with turboprops.

From my perspective flying for AE, I'd like nothing better than one list with AA. I'd also like a new car for Christmas, and that's probably more likely. Put everything with jet engines to mainline as far as I'm concerned and the work rules along with it. Not all of us slinging gear on embraers are embracing another 20 seats. I'd like to walk across the hall to mainline and get treated like an adult someday.

As far as the rash of pipers on my left hand resume, that was posted when I first came to this site and life was exciting. Now I'm just another regional schlub.

 

[catIIIc]

Loyd Hills response to Scope.

Scope: Beneficial To Pilots and Airline Managers
By APA President Captain Lloyd Hill

In the “Departures” section of the Aug. 2 edition of The DAILY, airline industry consultant Doug Abbey expresses the view that the scope clauses contained in some pilot contracts do more harm than good for major carriers’ key constituencies. A brief examination of the facts illustrates that he could not be more mistaken.
Mr. Abbey specifically cites the Continental Airlines pilots’ scope clause as “the most restrictive” in the industry and also notes that pilots at American Airlines have scope language in our contract governing the use of so-called “regional jets.” Has the scope language in these two contracts really hurt those two carriers? It’s interesting to note that American and Continental are the only two network carriers that did not file bankruptcy in the post-9/11 industry meltdown.
Aircraft commonly referred to as regional jets (typically those manufactured by Embraer and Bombardier with 35-90 seats) are much more expensive for carriers to operate than their larger counterparts because operating costs are allocated across fewer seats. Despite this big cost disadvantage, various carriers invested heavily in small jets during the latter half of the 1990s, only to find themselves in bankruptcy court a few years later. JetBlue’s recent slide into financial peril coincided with its decision to add such jets to its fleet.
By contrast, Southwest Airlines, which recently reported its 65th consecutive quarterly profit, has stuck to its knitting and continues to operate only Boeing 737s for maximum maintenance and training simplicity.
Another negative consequence of the regional jet phenomenon is the congestion that is causing an ever increasing number of flights to depart and arrive behind schedule. It’s basic math: When you substitute two regional jets for one narrowbody mainline jet, you’ve created a formula for more crowded skies and less convenient travel. The pre-9/11 “airport and airway gridlock” that Mr. Abbey refers to was a direct result of small jets flooding the system.
To alleviate the congestion created by regional jets and private planes at New York LaGuardia, the Port Authority of New York and New Jersey has examined the feasibility of auctioning off takeoff and landing slots. An auction would require carriers to pay more for peak-time slots, creating an incentive for the use of larger aircraft.
Passenger preference is clearly for larger aircraft. Small jets generally provide insufficient overhead baggage space and force taller passengers to maintain a caveman-like posture while walking to and from their seats. It’s worth noting that the larger aircraft Embraer is now manufacturing address the shortcomings typical of many smaller RJs and may prove to be an attractive marketplace proposition.
Mr. Abbey wrongly claims that “American has been unable to fly more than a handful of 60-plus-seaters for many years.” American Airlines is actually free to operate as many “60-plus-seaters” it wishes as long as it’s an American Airlines pilot at the controls. The pilots of American Airlines, including the 2,570 pilots currently on furlough from our airline, stand ready, willing and able to fly safely and efficiently whatever aircraft our airline’s management chooses to acquire.
Our collective bargaining agreement contains provisions addressing any new aircraft management decides are appropriate for domestic or international applications. Commuter affiliate American Eagle is permitted under our contract to fly roughly twice as many small jets as it currently does. AMR Corp., parent company of American Airlines and American Eagle, has chosen not to add more small jets, most likely in response to the burdensome operating costs they incur.
There is no question that scope has benefited the pilots of American Airlines by limiting the amount of our flying that can be outsourced. As the preceding facts illustrate, a strong case exists for scope’s beneficial effects on the airline’s bottom line as well.
It’s a tired refrain for consultants like Mr. Abbey to blame labor contracts for corporate shortcomings. I submit that it’s management’s responsibility — the executives who lavish themselves with hundreds of millions in bonuses — to fix the factory through vision and leadership.

 

[Murphy]

Great article.

AirTran's TA may be the worst in the industry if passed. Unlimited turboprops. 20% of ASMs flown by regional jets up to 86 seats capped at 25 aircraft on 1/2 of that 20%. Thats how I read it. It's a little bit more elaborate, but not much more.

"Any jet on property needs to be flown by AirTran pilots on the seniority list."

Tell those Eastern boys in the Training Dept to start studying the Q-400 flight manual. LOL

 

[conman]

Any jet on property needs to be flown by AirTran pilots on the seniority list."


Murphy,

That single statement right there says it all. Why pilots in this profession continue to not learn by history and continue to make the same mistakes over and over again. Once the scope monster sticks its head inside the tent at AirTran then management gets its dream scenario. Pit employee group against employee group. Before you know it you'll have 100 seat jets on the property paying $65-85 per hour for a CA. Just for reference an AA 100 seat CA made $168.00 per hour in 2001. The goal here is to diminish all pilot's earning expectations. Enough is Enough!!!!! I hope you guys shove that T/A up managements and your union leadership's ass!!!

 

[Murphy]

Thanks for the support Conman.

I've talked to people who are uncomfortable about the scope language. I tell them that if they are uncomfortable about scope, they need to vote "NO". There's probably a reason that scope, merger protection, bankruptcy, etc are in Chapter ONE.

Now go do the right thing Airtran pilots...vote "NO".

 

[BrazPilot]

At American Eagle.. two things:
Either they get incorporated into AA via single list or guaranteed career progression to AA to solve once and for all the scope and staffing problems. Or AE will start parking airplanes due to the current exodus of F/O's and no new hires wanting to go there due to the eternal upgrade ordeal. This is a fact: Staffing is absolutely critical. Newhire numbers are a joke. "Better" now after the word spread that they cancelled the Saab upgrades due to lack of F/O's to fly the jets. Not even the 500 hour kids want to fly there at this point. Believe me. If something does not give, November/December will be AA's greatest nightmare to date. Pilots timing out and no reserves to make up the Eagle schedule. That is almost inevitable at this point already. Plus, no other outsourced company has the staffing to fly AE's schedule in case AMR went that direction.
The company has finally agreed to talk to ALPA/APA about this whole deal, years after it had been pointed out and after F/O's clogged every company manager e-mail in existence with words of protest and promisses of leaving.
Now, the company must choose the lesser of those two evils, quickly. TIC, TOC, TIC, TOC....

 

[dickie q]

AP
Republic Amends Delta, UAL Agreements
Tuesday August 28, 10:17 am ET Republic to Replace 16 Delta Planes, Add 10 to United's Fleet
NEW YORK (AP) -- Regional air carrier Republic Airways Holdings Inc. amended services agreements with Delta Air Lines Inc. and UAL Corp. regarding aircraft for each carrier.
Republic will replace 16 of Delta's 70-seat Embraer 170 aircraft with 76-seat Embraer 175s during the second half of 2008 and first quarter of 2009. The planes are part of the Delta Connection fleet. It will also add 10 70-seat Embraer 170s to UAL's United Express-branded fleet. Republic operates regional flights for several major airlines, including Delta, UAL, AMR Corp., Continental Airlines Inc., US Airways Group Inc. and Frontier Airlines Holdings Inc.


Delta, United, and Northwest are all sellouts! Come on ALPO, do something.

Please......

APA's zeal to protect against the dreaded "B" scale is what created the RJ mess in the first place.

 

[stlflyguy]

Maybe AA will take some of the flying back from Eagle. That would solve the staffing problem.

Then again, it could happen the other way at some point as well--like it did four to six years ago.

stlflyguy