APA caves on Scope issues

[601Pilot]

And you wonder why everything is going downhill! Nice going APA!

601Pilot
------------------------------

American Execs And Pilots Resolve Chautauqua Dispute
Aviation Daily

10/25/2004
American's pilots agreed to drop their argument that Chautauqua's Embraer 170 flights violate the pilot contract if flying transfers to Chautauqua's sister carrier, Republic Airlines, within 180 days.
Certification delays for Republic Airlines forced its parent company, Republic Airways Holdings, to shift the flights to Chautauqua. American pilots claimed the move violated the portion of their contract that limits AmericanConnection carriers to using 50-seat planes. Chautauqua flies as AmericanConnection from St. Louis.
American's pilots, represented by the Allied Pilots Association (APA), and management reached an accord late last week that lets Chautauqua fly the jets for 180 days. Management must pay APA a daily penalty during that time totaling about $500,000. If Chautauqua flies the jets beyond 180 days, the daily penalty is about $30,000.
"Under the terms of the letter of agreement (LOA), management acknowledges that operation of 70-seat aircraft by a commuter carrier would violate the APA-AA collective bargaining agreement," APA said.
American's management also has to secure agreements with Trans States Airlines and Chautauqua banning those carriers from flying aircraft that don't comply with the scope clause in its contract with APA. Pilots and management are signing an agreement that ensures any future accord with an AmericanConnection carrier stipulates those airlines cannot fly jets not allowed under scope.

 

[tarp]

Um, you gotta ask.....where does the $500K go?

What's APA going to do with that money?

 

[AA717driver]

Where's the $500,000 going?

The PDP wants it for their strike fund... TC

 

[BoilerUP]

Too bad AMR didn't put that scope restriction in the Chautauqa contract. If I am not mistaken, to cancel the CHQ contract (without cause) AMR would have had to eat the 140s and deal with the other financial consequences of breaking their agreement. Or they could pay off the APA because some lawyer screwed up. You tell me what was cheaper.

I wonder if the APA is going to send any of that $500K to their furloughed brothers and sisters...

 

[WyoHerkdriver]

I am sure that they will make sure that the $500,000 goes to the senior pilot group instead of the furloughed pilots. The senior pilots are always taken care of first.

 

[aa73]

I am sure that they will make sure that the $500,000 goes to the senior pilot group instead of the furloughed pilots. The senior pilots are always taken care of first.

Rest assured... it's either gonna go to the senior guys or they'll find some way to squander it off to management in exchange for some empty promise.

Modus operandi, alive and well at the APA!

aa73 "hittin the streets in a couple months"

 

[Zipperhead]

The APA is a ball of spineless *&$&# heads!!! I am ashamed to be represented by these idiots. I've never seen a "union" as week a spineless as this bunch of meatheads.

 

[Jeff Helgeson]

$500K is chump change vs. $23.6 million

The APA was awarded over $23 million for maintaining and expanding the contract with non Eagle commuter airlines out of STL. This was the feed for TWA that was already in place. The TWA LLC flying was greatly reduced while the contract commuter flying was increased. This was in violation of the contract between the APA and American. The most pain was felt by the former TWA/AA pilots that flew out of STL, myself included. The APA received the $23 + million for violating the contract and I gaurantee the pilots that were effected the most won't see a penny of it.

I found horse sh!t in my Christmas stocking the last two years and expect more of the same for many years to come, but still, I continue to look for that pony! I am getting tired of making lemonaid.

 

[Jeff Helgeson]

Don't worry about it.

aa73 "hittin the streets in a couple months"[/QUOTE]

We'll save you a spot on the corner, where we've been hangin' out.

 

[Jeff Helgeson]

Still no worries.

aa73 "hittin the streets in a couple months"

Looks like I deleted too much.

 

[JohnQ]

The APA is a ball of spineless *&$&# heads!!! I am ashamed to be represented by these idiots. I've never seen a "union" as week a spineless as this bunch of meatheads. I sincerely wish we (TWA) were never bought by AA!!!!!!!!!!

Oh, yes. I am sure that if AA had not bought out TWA, TWA would now be the powerhouse of the industry--riiiight......

On the other hand, if AA had NOT bought out TWA, perhaps when TWA would have (within a year tops) gone into Ch 7 liquidation, then all the current TWA employees would have been forced to put out apps elsewhere, and you and your brethren might be flying for SWA, FedEx, etc., instead of being furlouged or ultra-junior at AA.

As for the APA being spineless, that is what you get when a once militant union starts believing its own press releases etc., and that culminated in the sickout that resulted in the $55 million (?) fine against the union--effectively emasculating it.

Sometimes not listening to the radical elements in your union is the best thing pilots can do--not that many on this board will agree.

 

[aa73]

The APA is a ball of spineless *&$&# heads!!! I am ashamed to be represented by these idiots. I've never seen a "union" as week a spineless as this bunch of meatheads. I sincerely wish we (TWA) were never bought by AA!!!!!!!!!!

Zipperhead...

That horse is a skeleton right now. No need to bring it up ONCE AGAIN!

Having said that, I share your views regarding the APA, as well as most AA pilots these days. I think if you want to find a union that is universally admired, look no further than SWAPA. Most of my ALPA buddies at the other airlines share the same disdain for ALPA, as I'm sure you TWAers also do.

Jeff Helgeson, I should be hitting the "Corner" sometime around February, what flavor of beer you guys been drinking lately?

aa73

 

[pylut]

apa is a corrupt organization representing an equally corrupt and morally bereft group of constituents. The phrase "as you sow so shall you reap" springs to mind.

I do feel badly for one in eight of the impending furloughs.

 

[Zipperhead]

JohnQ,

I never said in my posting that TWA would be a powerhouse right now. I was simply stating that maybe TWA would still be operating, perhaps in bankruptcy as is USAirways and United. Perhaps another carrier would have bought TWA. No one will ever know.

As I was coming up the ranks at the commuters and filling out apps, I never submitted one to AA because I never wanted to be part of their culture. I simply don't care for a big company who could give a s*&t about their employees.

Yes, I realize their are other choices and I am exploring every one of them.

 

[TWA Dude]

Well, I'm coming out to say I think the APA got a good deal on this. After all, what we have here is only a technical violation of the scope. CHQ is flying the 170s for United so there's no deleterious effect on APA's flying. Yes, it's a violation and that makes it significant but in the big scheme of things is not worthy of a sick-out or any other drastic measure. Plus it's only temporary until CHQ gets the Republic certificate in order. There, I'm done.

 

[JohnQ]

JohnQ,

I never said in my posting that TWA would be a powerhouse right now. I was simply stating that maybe TWA would still be operating, perhaps in bankruptcy as is USAirways and United. Perhaps another carrier would have bought TWA. No one will ever know.

As I was coming up the ranks at the commuters and filling out apps, I never submitted one to AA because I never wanted to be part of their culture. I simply don't care for a big company who could give a s*&t about their employees.

Yes, I realize their are other choices and I am exploring every one of them.

As usual my post came out far more cavalier than I meant it to be. I have a good friend that is former TWA, and here at DAL (my carrier) we have quite a few TWA guys--all great guys, and all loved TWA. The numbers, limited route structure, and debt (much due to rapists like Icahn) were just too much for the airline. I did not mean to minimize your former great carrier.

I wish you the best in your future flying--however you would define that!

 

[Jeff Helgeson]

Save your money for a squeegie.......

Jeff Helgeson, I should be hitting the "Corner" sometime around February, what flavor of beer you guys been drinking lately?

aa73

....or you could just sqwander it on malt liquor in a quart bottle!

We've got a good gig doing windows witha squirt bottle and a squeegie, it's not a nice gig, but it pays the bills!

 

[Big Slick]

I recall when I got furloughed from AA three years ago and my wife was pregnant with no health insurance. I remember moving in with my in-laws and going into debt. I also remember not being able to find a job.

I also distinctly remember going on the AAPilots.com webpage and seeing a post by a dude going on and on about how his wife got bumped while she was non-reving. There were lots of others complaining too about the most trivial stuff in the world.



There are a bunch of guys like me who are going to change the persona of APA when we get back. How about taking care of the junior guys? How about working with management to save the company?



Some of you should read the chapter of Hard Landing that details how Eastern went out of business. It might sound familiar to you.

 

[PHX767]

On the corner,

It doesn't matter what you drink... as long as it's in a paper bag.

Furloughed twice - never again!

 

[belchfire]

Oh, yes. I am sure that if AA had not bought out TWA, TWA would now be the powerhouse of the industry--riiiight......

On the other hand, if AA had NOT bought out TWA, perhaps when TWA would have (within a year tops) gone into Ch 7 liquidation, then all the current TWA employees would have been forced to put out apps elsewhere, and you and your brethren might be flying for SWA, FedEx, etc., instead of being furlouged or ultra-junior at AA.

As for the APA being spineless, that is what you get when a once militant union starts believing its own press releases etc., and that culminated in the sickout that resulted in the $55 million (?) fine against the union--effectively emasculating it.

Sometimes not listening to the radical elements in your union is the best thing pilots can do--not that many on this board will agree.

Completely ingnoring the fact there was another suitor for
TWA as TWA, not an effort to eliminate competition by
purchasing an essentially good operation and disembowling
it.

Everything I have seen to do with amr is disfunctional...

 

[AA717driver]

Hey, guys, debating the whole TWA thing should probably be saved for after we retire. I'd be more vocal about it if my chances of even being recalled(let alone having any kind of career there) to AA weren't disappearing rapidly.

Slick, G4G5 and PHX767 weren't the ones who did us in so we're kind of pi$$ing into the wind. AND, they would have gotten whacked without the TWA merger anyway. I guess for us bottom dwellers, it's a wash.

I hope everyone finds a job that they are happy with and goes on to have a great career. AA will hopefully become just a small speedbump in our lives.TC

 

[aa73]

apa is a corrupt organization representing an equally corrupt and morally bereft group of constituents. The phrase "as you sow so shall you reap" springs to mind.

I do feel badly for one in eight of the impending furloughs.

Well Pylut, I trust you wouldn't lump me into that group of "morally bereft constituents" if you really knew me personally... you'd find that I see both sides in this happy merger, having had good friends both at TWA and AA.

I believe you are more akin in directing your anger towards AA management, your ALPA MEC and the APA leadership, Carl Icahn, Bill Compton, etc, etc... because I as a junior line pilot had absolutely no say in what came down. I never voted on anything, I never put forth any knd of proposal, all I could do was watch.

I also feel badly for the impending furloughs - every one of them, including my own.

However, I will agree with your opinion of the APA as a corrupt organization.

Regards,
aa73

 

[username]

Here's another great thing about being furloughed by AA.

Every job appliation I fill out asks if I'm furloughed. Since I have the honor of checking this box it makes it real easy for HR to "file" my application. You know... the file that some guy empties out back every night after he's done cleaning the toilets. That same guy makes more than the job I just applied for pays.

Now between me and a recall there are 3,000 guys. No, I didn't add an extra zero in error. Oh wait, did somebody just mention 450 more furoulghs? Make that 3450 but who's counting. So, nobody will touch me with a ten foot pole. I'm 30 years old my prospects of returning to AA before the age 63 rule takes effect are about the same as getting a foot of snow in Maui, which is where I was flying before I was "saved" by AA.

But, at least got to wear the AA uniform. Now I'll have a great costume to get good and drunk in about this time each year.

 

[aa73]

Here's another great thing about being furloughed by AA.

Every job appliation I fill out asks if I'm furloughed. Since I have the honor of checking this box it makes it real easy for HR to "file" my application. You know... the file that some guy empties out back every night after he's done cleaning the toilets. That same guy makes more than the job I just applied for pays.

Now between me and a recall there are 3,000 guys. No, I didn't add an extra zero in error. Oh wait, did somebody just mention 450 more furoulghs? Make that 3450 but who's counting. So, nobody will touch me with a ten foot pole. I'm 30 years old my prospects of returning to AA before the age 63 rule takes effect are about the same as getting a foot of snow in Maui, which is where I was flying before I was "saved" by AA.

But, at least got to wear the AA uniform. Now I'll have a great costume to get good and drunk in about this time each year.

Well Username, there are a lot of pilots in the same shoes. A good USAir buddy of mine was recently furloughed, he was hired over there in 1989... was a 737 Captain in better times and now he is on the street looking for a job. 15 Years as a somewhat senior pilot... down the drain.

This industry is caught in the worst slump ever, and can probably get worse. I knew that going into it, and I'm about to experience the ax very shortly. All we can do is hope that this thing turns around sooner rather than later, because eventually all cycles come back up.

P.S. Glad you were able to experience Maui... I've never had the seniority to do any international stuff, but I can recommend a kick-a$$ mexican restaurant in Wichita.

regards,
aa73