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Anyone hear NY app yell at 888BW last night?
- Thread starter apcooper
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). They asked me to do S turns to improve spacing.you gotta be kidding me. you might want to brush up on your FARs. i'm a controller at N90 in the sector in question, and was there that night during this event, and yes the controller was mad, and had every right to be. this 8BW guy descends into the B without any clearance whatsoever. instead of getting a B clerance, the guy comes over the ocean at 7500 probably fulling knowing that he is right inbetween JFK arrivals descending southbound to 8000 (or 9000 if they are heavy or B757) and water departures climing to 7000. he's totally sandwiched in. if he was nervous about flying near JFK, he should have asked for a B clearance or stayed BELOW the floor. he could have gotten JFK direct DPK at 5500 or something and avoided a bulk of the traffic. he fully knew there were a ton of aircraft (he flew during a very very busy arrival/departure push combined) all over the ocean and LI, climbing and descning REFERENCE HIM, and he thinks that his evasive action to descend was proper? ha. he didnt seem to have TCAS, and he instead descends right into an IFR climbing to 7000 below him.
anyway, to respond to bernouli...check out your FAR's dude. we cannot tell a VFR to maintain visual separation from an IFR OUTSIDE the CLASS B. this guy was on top of the class b (7500 feet, the B is 7000). even if he has the IFR's in sight, and tells us, we cant legally tell him to maintain visual. we point the IFR's out as a courtesy (above the B is traffic ADVISORIES only). there is no separation whatsoever outside the Class B. lots of pilot fly exactly where this guy flew at 7500 on 1200 codes not talking to anyone. and we still separate them. we COULD descend right through them, but i guarantee we never would. our families and friends are on those planes too, and all of us will do whatever it takes to separate a VFR outside the B from ANY type aircraft. in fact, we use 1500 feet separation AS A COURTESY when a heavy/B757 is descending above a guy at say 7500 feet - whether is is talking to ATC for advisories or going about his merry way squawking 1200. both the arrival controller and departure controller were stopping their traffic reference this VFR pilot and applying 500 feet sep, when it in NOT REQUIRED.
secondly, JBU does not have heavys.
thirdly, regardless of 8BW saying he had the traffic in sight, it is ALWAYS his responsibility to stay clear of the other aircraft - he is VFR, AND OUTSIDE THE BRAVO - again, NO SEPARATION SERVICES PROVIDED. again, HE IS ALWAYS RESPONSBILE FOR STAYING CLEAR - SEE AND AVOID. radar services outside the B are for advisory nature ONLY. we still seperate them using Bravo separation standards, and sometimes more if deemed necessary. can that be any clearer, i hope you knew that.
you said that in a radar environment, ATC will maintain separation for all IFR and VFR aircraft receiving advisories. that is not true. read the above paragraph for explanation. you are right that if the VFR is in the bravo they will receive separation - 500 feet, 1.5 miles depending on weight or simply target resolution (for lighters planes).
if you are not reporting traffic insight, you are only hurting yourself. if you dont have the guy in sight and you are VFR, i could care less. i'm still gonna provide whatever separation is needed - 1000 ft, 3 miles if you are IFR, 500 feet 1.5 miles if you are VFR in the B, legally no separation if you are out side the B, but I will still give you at least the VFR - B separation no matter what - even if you are some pilot flying around on a 1200 code not talking to ATC. if you are IFR, i would love you to provide visual sep when I am busy, but i dont bank on it. lots of pilot love visual sep (from what i understand) when we run visual approaches. they can follow the aircraft ahead at their discretion.
not to flame you, but i think you should read up on your FAR's and maybe take a look at the 7110.65, ATC handbook before making statements like you did on this board.
anyway, to respond to bernouli...check out your FAR's dude. we cannot tell a VFR to maintain visual separation from an IFR OUTSIDE the CLASS B. this guy was on top of the class b (7500 feet, the B is 7000). even if he has the IFR's in sight, and tells us, we cant legally tell him to maintain visual. we point the IFR's out as a courtesy (above the B is traffic ADVISORIES only). there is no separation whatsoever outside the Class B. lots of pilot fly exactly where this guy flew at 7500 on 1200 codes not talking to anyone. and we still separate them. we COULD descend right through them, but i guarantee we never would. our families and friends are on those planes too, and all of us will do whatever it takes to separate a VFR outside the B from ANY type aircraft. in fact, we use 1500 feet separation AS A COURTESY when a heavy/B757 is descending above a guy at say 7500 feet - whether is is talking to ATC for advisories or going about his merry way squawking 1200. both the arrival controller and departure controller were stopping their traffic reference this VFR pilot and applying 500 feet sep, when it in NOT REQUIRED.
secondly, JBU does not have heavys.
thirdly, regardless of 8BW saying he had the traffic in sight, it is ALWAYS his responsibility to stay clear of the other aircraft - he is VFR, AND OUTSIDE THE BRAVO - again, NO SEPARATION SERVICES PROVIDED. again, HE IS ALWAYS RESPONSBILE FOR STAYING CLEAR - SEE AND AVOID. radar services outside the B are for advisory nature ONLY. we still seperate them using Bravo separation standards, and sometimes more if deemed necessary. can that be any clearer, i hope you knew that.
you said that in a radar environment, ATC will maintain separation for all IFR and VFR aircraft receiving advisories. that is not true. read the above paragraph for explanation. you are right that if the VFR is in the bravo they will receive separation - 500 feet, 1.5 miles depending on weight or simply target resolution (for lighters planes).
if you are not reporting traffic insight, you are only hurting yourself. if you dont have the guy in sight and you are VFR, i could care less. i'm still gonna provide whatever separation is needed - 1000 ft, 3 miles if you are IFR, 500 feet 1.5 miles if you are VFR in the B, legally no separation if you are out side the B, but I will still give you at least the VFR - B separation no matter what - even if you are some pilot flying around on a 1200 code not talking to ATC. if you are IFR, i would love you to provide visual sep when I am busy, but i dont bank on it. lots of pilot love visual sep (from what i understand) when we run visual approaches. they can follow the aircraft ahead at their discretion.
not to flame you, but i think you should read up on your FAR's and maybe take a look at the 7110.65, ATC handbook before making statements like you did on this board.
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i had to reply to this one too. again, i am not flaming either of you, but you dont work at NY TRACON, and you dont have a clue as to what goes on.
yes, ATC cleared JBU to 7000 and the 8BW was at 7500. whats your problem with that? 8BW was OUTSIDE B airspace - NO SEPARATION SERVICES PROVIDED, legally. the controller, who is one of the best in the sector, applied 500 foot separation (which any ATC'r would do) even though legally, he is not required to provide anything. come to JFK and try to stop every depature at 5000 for some "i'm too good for Class B" pilot at 7500. see how quick you go down the tubes. if we stopped all those guys at 5000 climbing over the ocean, they would tangle with inbounds from the south landing 13L, arrivals landing 22L from the east, would give NY Center a huge headache, and would inhibit the safe and orderly flow of depatures off JFK. the airspace is not designed for that, in NY you want to climb as high and quickly as possible and descend as low and quickly as possible. there is not a lot of airspace to either climb or descend and altitudes are critical. 2,500 feet separation is insane. the centers arent even using that anymore (in some cases). again, you are proposing that we use 2500 feet to separate a VFR BE36 or whatever he was, and an IFR airbus when NO SEPARATION IS LEGALLY REQUIRED? the guy was VFR, its priority to SEE AND AVOID. if the guy was worried about separation, he should have asked for a Class B clearance.
again, i'm not flaming you, there are a alot of misconceptions about ATC especially in NY, and i want to clarify what is right and what is wrong from our point of view.
yes, ATC cleared JBU to 7000 and the 8BW was at 7500. whats your problem with that? 8BW was OUTSIDE B airspace - NO SEPARATION SERVICES PROVIDED, legally. the controller, who is one of the best in the sector, applied 500 foot separation (which any ATC'r would do) even though legally, he is not required to provide anything. come to JFK and try to stop every depature at 5000 for some "i'm too good for Class B" pilot at 7500. see how quick you go down the tubes. if we stopped all those guys at 5000 climbing over the ocean, they would tangle with inbounds from the south landing 13L, arrivals landing 22L from the east, would give NY Center a huge headache, and would inhibit the safe and orderly flow of depatures off JFK. the airspace is not designed for that, in NY you want to climb as high and quickly as possible and descend as low and quickly as possible. there is not a lot of airspace to either climb or descend and altitudes are critical. 2,500 feet separation is insane. the centers arent even using that anymore (in some cases). again, you are proposing that we use 2500 feet to separate a VFR BE36 or whatever he was, and an IFR airbus when NO SEPARATION IS LEGALLY REQUIRED? the guy was VFR, its priority to SEE AND AVOID. if the guy was worried about separation, he should have asked for a Class B clearance.
again, i'm not flaming you, there are a alot of misconceptions about ATC especially in NY, and i want to clarify what is right and what is wrong from our point of view.
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apcooper
Dude, where's my country?
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StarChecker
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I was able to visit the TRACON last year b/c my friend's father was a manager there and he got me in. It was really interesting. I highly recommend it if you can get in.
NY ATC is the best. I've flown here since I started...and you guys are by far the best. Except for the chicks in the tower at LGA.....YIKES! I taxied into position the other day behind a DAL 757 that had aborted his takeoff. The guy on final continued and if the DAL guy had rolled through the intersection....would have been a disaster.
And that 888BW guy got off easy. I've heard much much worse...and he deserved worse than that. He actually made an airline crew do something....that's messed up.
NY ATC is the best. I've flown here since I started...and you guys are by far the best. Except for the chicks in the tower at LGA.....YIKES! I taxied into position the other day behind a DAL 757 that had aborted his takeoff. The guy on final continued and if the DAL guy had rolled through the intersection....would have been a disaster.
And that 888BW guy got off easy. I've heard much much worse...and he deserved worse than that. He actually made an airline crew do something....that's messed up.
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Flightjock30
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