Anyone hear NY app yell at 888BW last night?

[Goose Egg]

I thought Class B Airspace had a ceiling of 10,000?

Not always. JFK is 7000' MSL. Same with BOS.

-Goose

 

[Moonfly201]

The Cherokee obviously conducted an evasive manuevuer by decending into the Class B. Bad move.

Airliners are popping out of JFK through the top of the Class B one after the other, all day long. This guy should have figured it out before he dove out of the way.

 

[sqwkvfr]

Yeah, I'm a dumbass.

I meant 2000.

...sorry.

 

[Bernoulli]

There is a huge piece of this puzzle that no has mentioned and is in fact an excellent topic for perhaps another thread. If you listen to 888BW... twice he is informed by the controller of traffic and both times he very quickly reports traffic in sight without hessitation. Now think about the airspace this guy is flying through.... there are a lot of planes flying around... and the traffic he is being warned about may not be the plane he thinks... plus... what happens when you report traffic in sight? The controller hands off the separation responsibility to you by saying "maintain visual separation". 888BW reported Jet Blue 182 heavy in sight but a minute later felt he had to dive out of the way to avoid the jet... well, if he said he had the aircraft in sight then he should have maintained visual separation from that aircraft at all times. His bad. As soon as he said "traffic in sight" he took on the responsibility of staying clear of that aircraft and is essentially freeing the controller of that responsibility. WHY WOULD YOU WANT TO DO THAT IN SUCH BUSY AIRSPACE????

Here is my point for perhaps a different thread. In a radar environment, ATC will maintain separation for all IFR aircraft and if a VFR aircraft is receiving advisories (flight following) ATC will provide separation on a work-load basis... If the VFR aircraft is in a Bravo airspace he/she will receive separation just like any IFR aircraft. So... if ATC warns you about traffic and will keep doing so the closer you get and will eventually turn both aircraft so they do not hit, why then would you be so quick to report the traffic in sight? If you report the traffic in sight (and the other traffic reports you in sight) and it's either the wrong traffic or you loose sight of the traffic, you have now put yourself in an unneccesarily less safe situation and possibly on a collision course with another aircraft because ATC aint warning you of each other anymore. ATC thinks you both have each other in sight and will maintain visual separation from each other. When ATC tells me I have traffic, I only report "traffic in sight" when I am absolutely positive that I have the traffic they are warning me about and I only do so at a point where I'm positive we could never collide... So I rarely report the traffic in sight...I simply tell them I'm looking for traffic even if I have the traffic in sight. I may see the traffic but I let ATC work for me and make sure I have that extra safety layer. I always look for traffic when advised and will allways maintain separation when I see traffic, but I rarely give up that extra layer of separation safety that a radar environment provides. As soon as I report traffic in sight I then must take on the complete responsibility for separation... Why should I do that when there is an ATC guy who can help me just in case I get busy and loose sight of that traffic? Someone please give me a good reason why I should reduce my separation safety when ATC will help me do it. I hear aircraft report traffic in sight all the time and then procede to almost collide. It's dumb... why do it when you can simply say you are still looking for traffic? OK... Flame on.

P.S. I will post a new thread titled "why report traffic in sight" with this potentially controversial topic just in case this thread is dead.

 

[TR4A]

888BW reported Jet Blue 182 heavy in sight

You guys flying those Big buses?

 

[Yank McCobb]

Besides that, Jet Blue 182 was one traffic call, Jet Blue 29 another. It was Jet Blue 29 that was the object of his evasive maneuver.

Bernoulli...at least get your fact straight (Jet Blue 182 "heavy", wrong Jet Blue, etc...) if you want to be taken at least partly seriously.

 

[Valkyrie]

Another emergency landed on 4R @ JFK 10 minutes ago.

 

[Yank McCobb]

Moral of the story...avoid NY like your life depended on it.

 

[apcooper]

I synked the animation and audio within 10 sec and am going to give some constructive criticism to ATC! When JB 29 was on what looked like a 150 hdg out of JFK, ATC cleared him up to 7000 while 8BW was on a 060 hdg at 7500. I think I would have had JB 29 stop at 5000 on the same heading since there would have been no conflicting traffic at all below 7000 looking at the animation. The controller should have picked up on many cues several minutes before the incident that 8BW wasn't really sharp on the radio time after time and seemed a bit overwhelmed. That would have made it seem prudent to give 2500 ft seperation instead of 500. This just isn't a lot of breathing room since if both pilots are 150 off their assigned altitude (perfectly legal) then there would only be 200 ft between each of them. You'd think ATC in a radar environment unless absolutly necessary would not put a VFR and an IFR aircraft 500ft apart. This would have been illegal for 2 IFR's and that to me is a safer bet than an IFR and a VFR.


I don't want to monday morning QB too much but rather have pilots and controllers learn from mistakes. I wholeheartedly believe ATCers deserve every dime of their pay for the stress they endure and of course everyone here knows the bottom 80% of pilots are criminally underpaid as well.

 

[FlyChicaga]

Seriously, do you fly in NYC? Do you have any idea just how many airplanes (and helos) are flying around there? It's insane. But I wouldn't trade it for the world. Those NY controllers are some of the best in the world. Same could be said for the Chicago controllers at ORD and MDW.

Well if you'd like to tell them, you do have the number up there.

 

[apcooper]

Seriously, do you fly in NYC? Do you have any idea just how many airplanes (and helos) are flying around there? It's insane. But I wouldn't trade it for the world. Those NY controllers are some of the best in the world. Same could be said for the Chicago controllers at ORD and MDW.

Well if you'd like to tell them, you do have the number up there.

I am not second guessing ATC at all. When making my assesment of how they seperated the traffic I had one luxury that they did not have. Hindsight. I probably could fly a lot better than most of them but they would kick my butt anytime, anyday in terms of not only seperating all that metal but also keeping delays to the minimum possible! As you rightly pointed out, 99% are find folks deserving of every dime they make. I can't think of a single profession that requires being responsible for more lives every hour that is so demanding. Being a pilot is not far behind ATC IMHO. Don't get me started down this road though!!!!!!!!!!!!

 

[FlyChicaga]

I am not second guessing ATC at all.

Wait. What is this?

I synked the animation and audio within 10 sec and am going to give some constructive criticism to ATC! When JB 29 was on what looked like a 150 hdg out of JFK, ATC cleared him up to 7000 while 8BW was on a 060 hdg at 7500. I think I would have had JB 29 stop at 5000 on the same heading since there would have been no conflicting traffic at all below 7000 looking at the animation. The controller should have picked up on many cues several minutes before the incident that 8BW wasn't really sharp on the radio time after time and seemed a bit overwhelmed. That would have made it seem prudent to give 2500 ft seperation instead of 500. This just isn't a lot of breathing room since if both pilots are 150 off their assigned altitude (perfectly legal) then there would only be 200 ft between each of them. You'd think ATC in a radar environment unless absolutly necessary would not put a VFR and an IFR aircraft 500ft apart. This would have been illegal for 2 IFR's and that to me is a safer bet than an IFR and a VFR.

Just curious.

 

[Metro752]

Aww come on man. We should talk about your avatar, which film does she appear in? Disney produced?

 

[FlyChicaga]

It's aviation related, is it not?

 

[ISaidRightTurns]

I think I would have had JB 29 stop at 5000 on the same heading since there would have been no conflicting traffic at all below 7000 looking at the animation. The controller should have picked up on many cues several minutes before the incident that 8BW wasn't really sharp on the radio time after time and seemed a bit overwhelmed.

Here's the thing. If you start giving 1500' both sides of every pilot behind the power curve, especially a flying road block like a cherokee, you will run outta airspace real quick.