anyone get out of the Chautauqua training contract?

[n7715x]

Does anyone know if anyone has successfully gotten out of paying out off the training agreement if they've left before the two years is up? I know there are quite a few ex chq guys here so I thought Id post it here...

 

[notaNJApilot]

I heard NJ guys got out of training contracts by calling it indentured servitude. But I also believe everything I see on TV.

 

[fly5boy7]

I left Shuttle/CHQ/whatever after 14 months for NJA. I never heard a word about it. NJA is the place to be- the regionals are sooo jacked up. ACA for 3 years, CHQ/Shuttle for a little over a year- never going back to the airlines.

Hope this helps. Good luck.

 

[EdAtTheAirport]

On the one hand, you signed it. You made an agreement with your eyes wide open. They fulfilled their end of the bargain; why do you want to renege on your end? How are you going to explain not fulfilling your contract at your next interview.. and the one after that?

If you must, ultimately you need a lawyer. An agressive lawyer. A lawyer who would argue that a stop sign is unconstitutional. Find a good, agressive lawyer who specializes in contracts. But as I said, I think it will say more about your character if you tough it out. How much longer do you have, and how bad is it, exactly?

 

[fly5boy7]

Um, you missed the point Ed---

They did not even ask about it. They are NOT enforcing it- that's the point. Not sure if you are just stirring the pot, but they just aren't enforcing it is the point.

And, secondly, when I got hired, I signed my training contract with Chautauqua only. When transferred to Shuttle, we were informed that we were "terminated" from Chautauqua and were signing on fresh with Shuttle. And, with Shuttle, I never saw a training contract period. So, maybe this is why I didn't have any trouble. I don't know. BUt I have not heard of one person being held to that contract- hope this helps those concerned. Republic is your standard low-bidding regional. That's why they are growing so much- they don't have enough administrative people on staff to handle the day to day employee issues anyhow.

Good luck to anyone looking to come to NJ.

PS- If NJ stays strong for decades to come, I won't have any more interviews to attend- and, they sure didn't care about any Chautauqua training contract. ;o)

 

[n7715x]

Ditto. If I ever interview somewhere else down the road, it will be long enough from now that the last thing theyll probably worry about is if there was ever a contract at CHQ and if I left before it was over. From what Ive seen of NJA so far, I think Ill be staying for a long time.

 

[doh]

I have yet to run into a Netjets person who would leave! It must be a good place! I have yet to run into a regional person who is happy!

 

[EdAtTheAirport]

Flyboy, it's funny how you say that I missed the point. If they aren't enforcing the contract, then there was no need for him to post in the first place. In my opinion a guy breaking an agreement with his former employer IS the point.

If I had a choice to hire two guys, one of whom honored his contract, and one who didn't, there would be no question who ranked higher.

It's funny how the raising of an "integrity" issue is considered "stirring the pot." Moreover, what would you think if your employer walked all over your labor contract because you weren't enforcing it, or some other reason? Different opinion on that one, huh?

I was simply advising a fellow pilot of a possible consequence of his action before he did it. I can foresee it coming up in a future interview. That's why I asked how bad/how long, and wanted him to consider just finishing his stinkin' contract.

 

[choppengruven]

Ed, go back to the airport.

 

[fly5boy7]

Ed, you have WAY too much time on your hands. Find yourself a good hobby-

ANd, the first post was basically asking if the contract was being enforced or not. So, pull the rod out of your butt and enjoy life a little more- don't be so anal.

Ill have a rum and coke for ya.

Cheers!

Good luck to all regional- NJ transfers- fantastic move!

 

[hammer2]

On the one hand, you signed it. You made an agreement with your eyes wide open. They fulfilled their end of the bargain; why do you want to renege on your end? How are you going to explain not fulfilling your contract at your next interview.. and the one after that?

If you must, ultimately you need a lawyer. An agressive lawyer. A lawyer who would argue that a stop sign is unconstitutional. Find a good, agressive lawyer who specializes in contracts. But as I said, I think it will say more about your character if you tough it out. How much longer do you have, and how bad is it, exactly?

Ed,
Should someone stay in a bad situation, and pass up a good job & future to serve out an contract? If someone takes the good job and is now able to take care of his family ,does that say something bad about his character?

 

[gunfyter]

On the one hand, you signed it. You made an agreement with your eyes wide open. They fulfilled their end of the bargain; why do you want to renege on your end? How are you going to explain not fulfilling your contract at your next interview.. and the one after that?

If you must, ultimately you need a lawyer. An agressive lawyer. A lawyer who would argue that a stop sign is unconstitutional. Find a good, agressive lawyer who specializes in contracts. But as I said, I think it will say more about your character if you tough it out. How much longer do you have, and how bad is it, exactly?

These training contracts.... Too bad it does not protect the pilots from being furloughed before the 2 yrs are up.

There have even been companies brash enough to go after pilots for training contracts after they took another job while furloughed.

Integrity? Simply an unfair labor practice. Training is a cost of doing business.

 

[CaptainJaguar]

You think that's bad? You should see avantair's training contract. Dam! Talk about really getting screwed!

 

[hopalong]

These training contracts.... Too bad it does not protect the pilots from being furloughed before the 2 yrs are up.

There have even been companies brash enough to go after pilots for training contracts after they took another job while furloughed.

Integrity? Simply an unfair labor practice. Training is a cost of doing business.

AMEN to that!

 

[jaybird]

There's two ways to look at this. You signed a contract, you are responsable to uphold your agreement.

CHQ management signed a CBA with the pilot group. Do they hold up thier end of the agreement? They didn't when I was there.

I say take your chances and walk away. But, be prepared to pay out if or when they come after you.

 

[EdAtTheAirport]

To answer you Hammer, if "taking care of your family" is a valid excuse for your actions, then crossing a picket line would be cool too. After all, a scab just wants to put bread on the table, also. Ditto for drug dealers, burgulars, and child-porn producers. Care to defend any of that?

This guy expressed no desperation to take care of his family, only a desire to "get out of" his agreement. (See title of thread.) If I were a future employer, I'd be worried that he suddenly develop the need to "take care of his family" after I trained him. That's why I advised him to stick it out if at all possible.

But even as a regular line pilot, I say that it's only because of actions like that -- bailing on employers after training -- that we have these %#X@ contracts in the first place. He signed it. Unless there's a breach by the employer, he should either do his time or pay it off like the rest of us.

 

[gunfyter]

I thought the training contracts were there because they know the pay is too low to keep people on the property otherwise?

 

[hopalong]

To answer you Hammer, if "taking care of your family" is a valid excuse for your actions, then crossing a picket line would be cool too. After all, a scab just wants to put bread on the table, also. Ditto for drug dealers, burgulars, and child-porn producers. Care to defend any of that?

This guy expressed no desperation to take care of his family, only a desire to "get out of" his agreement. (See title of thread.) If I were a future employer, I'd be worried that he suddenly develop the need to "take care of his family" after I trained him. That's why I advised him to stick it out if at all possible.

But even as a regular line pilot, I say that it's only because of actions like that -- bailing on employers after training -- that we have these %#X@ contracts in the first place. He signed it. Unless there's a breach by the employer, he should either do his time or pay it off like the rest of us.

First of all, most of these companies put us in pretty bad positions. "Either sign this contract or we don't want you to work for us." So, here we are put in a pretty bad position. And then they pay us crappy wages. Sounds more like indentured servitude. Why don't we ask them to sign a contract? To compare this to a scab, porn producers, etc.. is offensive and plain wrong.

 

[hammer2]

Edward
Scabs, drug dealers, robbers, and pedophiles..... Hummm??? Apples to oranges.

Maybe desperate was a little extreme, lets try again. Would you pass up an opportunity because of a training contract?

Most future employers in aviation know the game. Unless he is you, if it is not a trend I don't think it would even be a consideration.

Our wonderful judicial system will decide if you pay or not.

Dude, child porn, we're talking a training contract man a TRAINING CONTRACT!!!

 

[AngelKing]

I agree with Ed on this one, your eyes were open when you signed the contract.

On the other hand, if you were "terminated" under the conditions you stated above, I wouldn't think you would be held to the contract. It would be like, if the company went out of business, but yet expected you to pay up. I would tell them where to go, then get a lawyer.

Ed was answering your question, and you didn't like the answer.

Grow up.

AK

 

[Fozzy]

Just send them a letter telling them that times are hard and you are losing money and that you need consessions. And that they need to give a little. And not to worry you will get hook them up in the future.
They do it so why not give it a shot.

Seriously though, walk away. Acutally, RUN.


As far as Ed and Angle. This industry owes you NOTHING. They will stick it in you at any point for any reason. They will not give it a second thought if they break a contract/promise/handshake or whatever. At this point in this industry, there is no honor left. The pilots did not choose this, but here it is. So for these guys that think you owe the man something, well forget it.
AND no one will even ask about a training contract. If you are qualified and want the job, the recruiter will want you. Plain and simple. Just like one team stealing away anothers player.

 

[fly5boy7]

Just to answer the original question-

Chautuaqua is NOT holding the many people that are leaving to the contract- not one of them. So, that's chautauqua's stance on thier own contract.

I would love to meet the first person who offers to pay out a contract after taking all responsible steps towards resignation and are not subsequently asked to pay out. That would just be assanign- bottom line.

 

[Rouge Warrior]

Left RAH after 11 months, gave a proper 2 week notice and left. RAH asked where I was going, I told them. They said if I changed my mind I was welcome back at RAH,fat friggin chance.

 

[fly5boy7]

lol- I didn't even give them a 2 week notice. Got offered a Monday class at NJ on a Friday. I gave them 12 hrs notice. But, believe it or not the chief pilot was super cool about it and helped me on my way. He said he did the same thing back in isthe day with TWA/American or something. He realized what a hole RAH can be- or the whoel reginal industry for that matter. Turns out he left a few months ago I heard. Eh, must be something in the water.


Best of luck to everyone!

-DK

 

[johnsonrod]

This is not flamebait.

I am a regional pilot and I hate regional flying too and I am looking to bolt after too many years. I understand the regional lifestyle and the pi$$ poor wages that come with it (and the lame management). However, I don't know many people at Republic and I have rarely come into contact with any Republic/Shuttle America pilots on the road.

Understanding that the regional industry is terrible in general, what is so bad about Republic and flying the E170? Why are so many people leaving "early" to go to Netjets, Flexjet, Part 91, etc. despite those being better opportunities? I thought my regional was terrible but the Republic guys seem to be the loudest out there... What are some of the most blatant factors leading to early departures? From an aircraft standpoint, I heard the E170 was nice to fly... Any insight would be appreciated - just trying to understand the situation.

 

[Rouge Warrior]

170 was rushed into production as cheaply as possible, many (while I was there anyway) mx issuses avionics, engine pylons cracking, flight contol issuses. As far as management goes they are trying to operate a very large and diverse regional with the same amout of people they had when it was a small regional. NO ONE at HQ ever answers a phone.

 

[fly5boy7]

Johnsonrod-

People are getting "stuck" in the regionals now and realizing it is no place for a career. Most of the career opportunities have dried up- honestly. FDX, SWA, UPS are about the only major type airlines IMO. I am sure many will disagree. I am at NetJets now and I can tell you that this is truely a career place as opposed to a stepping stone that RAH is. I have many, many good freinds at RAH who are considering a move to NJ or elsewhere now. A lot of us came from ACA originally. ACA was a fairly decent regional, but still no career place. All the questions come into play about job stability and career options, etc. While RAH may be growing like a weed (and they surely are), they are experiencing TREMENDOUS growing pains along with that growth. Unfortunately, because of the nature of regional business (low bidder wins essentially), those growing pains get burdened onto the employees almost 100%. This is a very detailed discussion, but that is the basic issue.

As for me, I will never leave NJ on my own will- not even for SWA, FDX, or UPS. The job stabilty is too great and the intangibles of being part of a GOOD company are way to enormous to ever leave. Pay will be fair for a career pilot IMO. Probably average in the mid 100,000's over a 30 yr career all things being equal. I know everything i subject to change, and NOTHING is EVER a sure bet- I have been in the regionals for 5 years prior to my move to NJ, working for 3 different companies, flying 2 different planes. I guess my bottom line opinion is that if NJ doesn't work out to be a solid career then nothing in aviation will. All jobs are subject to unforeseen issues, but after examining many, many possibilities of the airlines, regionals, and NJ, this is truely the most protected aviation job around. Just one guys opinion. You really just have to experience it all for yourself to be a believer. And it's not in company promises- the positive intangibles speak for themselves here. Actins truely are louder than words.

-DK

PS- regarding the 170 being a nice aircraft- yeah, it's not bad. It is a cheap low-budge, big airplane. But, it was fun. After a few years in the regionals, starting to plan life out, I realized that the type of airplane doesn't matter to me at all. It's all about QOL, pay and job security. I went from the CRj to the 170 to the Citation XL. I am flying the smallest plane of my career, having the most fun flying ever. I always had the dream of flying the big 747 ----- then life happened. ;o)

 

[blueridge71]

I have to weigh in on the side of the people who say that you should honor your contract. This is coming from a guy who has bought my way out of one contract and then signed another.

This industry is too small to gamble that breaking your word is not going to affect you somewhere down the road.

If you have integrity, nothing else matters. If you don't have integrity, nothing else matters. ~Alan Simpson

 

[johnsonrod]

Johnsonrod-

People are getting "stuck" in the regionals now and realizing it is no place for a career. Most of the career opportunities have dried up- honestly. FDX, SWA, UPS are about the only major type airlines IMO. I am sure many will disagree. I am at NetJets now and I can tell you that this is truely a career place as opposed to a stepping stone that RAH is. I have many, many good freinds at RAH who are considering a move to NJ or elsewhere now. A lot of us came from ACA originally. ACA was a fairly decent regional, but still no career place. All the questions come into play about job stability and career options, etc. While RAH may be growing like a weed (and they surely are), they are experiencing TREMENDOUS growing pains along with that growth. Unfortunately, because of the nature of regional business (low bidder wins essentially), those growing pains get burdened onto the employees almost 100%. This is a very detailed discussion, but that is the basic issue.

As for me, I will never leave NJ on my own will- not even for SWA, FDX, or UPS. The job stabilty is too great and the intangibles of being part of a GOOD company are way to enormous to ever leave. Pay will be fair for a career pilot IMO. Probably average in the mid 100,000's over a 30 yr career all things being equal. I know everything i subject to change, and NOTHING is EVER a sure bet- I have been in the regionals for 5 years prior to my move to NJ, working for 3 different companies, flying 2 different planes. I guess my bottom line opinion is that if NJ doesn't work out to be a solid career then nothing in aviation will. All jobs are subject to unforeseen issues, but after examining many, many possibilities of the airlines, regionals, and NJ, this is truely the most protected aviation job around. Just one guys opinion. You really just have to experience it all for yourself to be a believer. And it's not in company promises- the positive intangibles speak for themselves here. Actins truely are louder than words.

-DK

PS- regarding the 170 being a nice aircraft- yeah, it's not bad. It is a cheap low-budge, big airplane. But, it was fun. After a few years in the regionals, starting to plan life out, I realized that the type of airplane doesn't matter to me at all. It's all about QOL, pay and job security. I went from the CRj to the 170 to the Citation XL. I am flying the smallest plane of my career, having the most fun flying ever. I always had the dream of flying the big 747 ----- then life happened. ;o)

Good post. Well, at least you got your taste of the airline business and flying a relatively advanced aircraft there (good glass experience) - you won't have that lingering feeling about "what could have been had you worked in the airlines" like so many non-airline people.

I agree that the regionals blow and many people are looking to get out fast. I certainly think the fractionals offer a great deal with better pay prospects and a good schedule for those with 7/7 or similar. I just think picking the right fractional is important - you want one that will most likely be around for awhile. Too bad Netjets has such a lame domicile policy with only 4-5 cities offered - I hope that changes in the near future...

 

[Corona]

Just send them a letter telling them that times are hard and you are losing money and that you need concessions. And that they need to give a little. And not to worry you will get hook them up in the future.
They do it so why not give it a shot.

Seriously though, walk away. Acutally, RUN.

:laugh: This is the best advice yet! :laugh:

C