Anyone flying the fires in OK?

[Swass]

Is any member of this board fighting the brush fires in TX or OK? Just curious.

Avbug maybe? I heard they are bringing in a couple more tankers.

 

[Grumman guy]

Neptune is sending a couple of P-2's and Aero Union is sending 2 P-3's. A few friends of mine but I dont think they frequent this board. From what it looks like they should have been there two weeks ago. Looks like another Katrina SNAFU. Airtankers can really do alot on long narrow flat fires like these. Definatley could have saved some homes and property.

 

[moving2vegas]

Aircraft on scene today T-25,T-00, T-06, T-09, T-48, T-07, T-11, Seat 488, 3 helicopters and a couple leads. Looks like most flew today.

 

[JonJohn82]

Aircraft on scene today T-25,T-00, T-06, T-09, T-48, T-07, T-11, Seat 488, 3 helicopters and a couple leads. Looks like most flew today.

Were those in TX or OK?

I happened to fly over one today. Didn't look like much though.

 

[Flying Illini]

Neptune is sending a couple of P-2's and Aero Union is sending 2 P-3's. A few friends of mine but I dont think they frequent this board. From what it looks like they should have been there two weeks ago. Looks like another Katrina SNAFU. Airtankers can really do alot on long narrow flat fires like these. Definatley could have saved some homes and property.

Yep, identical to Katrina.

 

[agpilot34]

Yep, identical to Katrina.

Dude, unless you LIVE here in Oklahoma and have firsthand knowledge of the response that's been mounted, you need to keep your mouth shut because you havent got a CLUE what you're talking about!

I live here in Oklahoma, I fly in this state every day, AND I serve on my town's volunteer fire department as a firefighter. I've spent the better part of the last four days (when not flying) fighting a 7,000 acre fire near here that just refuses to die. Retardant drops by tankers have helped us alot in the areas of this fire that are completely inaccessible by ground personel. However, on the worst three days we've had, the days that most of the property losses occured on, there could have been 100 tankers here and it would not have done any good. Those days had the winds SUSTAINED at 35 to 40 mph, with gusts from 50 to 60 mph in some areas, and that would have kept the tankers on the ground, and DID keep the OK ANG Blackhawks and Chinooks on the ground. When they COULD fly, they went just as hard as they could go. There are firefighters from 14 different states here right now, and some of them have been here for at least 10 days that I know of. This is NOTHING like Katrina... when Katrina hit, everyone from the President down to the local janitor KNEW the storm was coming days in advance, and KNEW how severe it was going to be, and they still sat idlely by and did nothing. The response to the fires and dry conditions we have here has been going on for several months, it's just that the conditions have finally gotten bad enough to get some media attention. Most of these fires are starting in rural areas, and fueled by dry grass, cedars, and high winds, grow from nothing into a monster in minutes. By the time FD gets the call, it's a big fire already. Now unless you've been on the ground and in close proximity to a wildfire that's being fueled by 7 foot high dry grasses, Cedar trees, etc, with a wall of flames 50 feet high, moving arcross the ground at between 30 and 40 mph, you need to stop the Monday morning quarterbacking of the response, because you dont know what you are talking about.

 

[Flying Illini]

Dude, unless you LIVE here in Oklahoma and have firsthand knowledge of the response that's been mounted, you need to keep your mouth shut because you havent got a CLUE what you're talking about!

I live here in Oklahoma, I fly in this state every day, AND I serve on my town's volunteer fire department as a firefighter. I've spent the better part of the last four days (when not flying) fighting a 7,000 acre fire near here that just refuses to die. Retardant drops by tankers have helped us alot in the areas of this fire that are completely inaccessible by ground personel. However, on the worst three days we've had, the days that most of the property losses occured on, there could have been 100 tankers here and it would not have done any good. Those days had the winds SUSTAINED at 35 to 40 mph, with gusts from 50 to 60 mph in some areas, and that would have kept the tankers on the ground, and DID keep the OK ANG Blackhawks and Chinooks on the ground. When they COULD fly, they went just as hard as they could go. There are firefighters from 14 different states here right now, and some of them have been here for at least 10 days that I know of. This is NOTHING like Katrina... when Katrina hit, everyone from the President down to the local janitor KNEW the storm was coming days in advance, and KNEW how severe it was going to be, and they still sat idlely by and did nothing. The response to the fires and dry conditions we have here has been going on for several months, it's just that the conditions have finally gotten bad enough to get some media attention. Most of these fires are starting in rural areas, and fueled by dry grass, cedars, and high winds, grow from nothing into a monster in minutes. By the time FD gets the call, it's a big fire already. Now unless you've been on the ground and in close proximity to a wildfire that's being fueled by 7 foot high dry grasses, Cedar trees, etc, with a wall of flames 50 feet high, moving arcross the ground at between 30 and 40 mph, you need to stop the Monday morning quarterbacking of the response, because you dont know what you are talking about.

Ok agpilot, before you go off the handle on me maybe you should re-read what I responded to. After you re-read that, then go and look at my comment with the ROLL EYES (which indicates SARCASM) emoticon. The poster I responded to stated "Looks like another Katrina SNAFU" to which I replied with sarcasm, "Yep, identical to Katrina " which means that I feel it is in NO WAY like Katrina.
Don't be a dick, you guys have a bad situation on your hands. I do wish everyone there the best of luck, it's a bad situation that mother nature has tossed your way. I feel bad for everyone in the fires path. I do hope that the whole area gets some higher humidity, less wind, and some rain so that the fires can be extinguished and the fire danger reduced.

I will await your apology.

 

[agpilot34]

Okay, I re read your post, and yeah, I guess I took it the wrong way. I'm big enough to admit when I'm wrong, so I apologize for going off on you. It's been a long few days around here, I havent had much sleep. we finally got a little relief from the winds today, and a little higher humidity, but they're supposed to come back up tomorrow with a dry North wind 25 to 30mph. We arent forcast to get ANY kind of precipitation until around the 17th, and even then, the chances are slim to none. Right now, every day is just a "wait and see what happens" type proposal, with the conditions we have. We do have lots of help in here now, though, and it is much appreciated. Just keep us in your prayers around here, we need it!

 

[MFRskyknight]

Neptune is sending a couple of P-2's and Aero Union is sending 2 P-3's. A few friends of mine but I dont think they frequent this board. From what it looks like they should have been there two weeks ago. Looks like another Katrina SNAFU.

I totally know what you mean. I live on the west coast and had to fill ten sandbags to keep the 1.5" water away from the back door the other day. I kid you not -- TEN!!!

MFR

 

[avbug]

Those days had the winds SUSTAINED at 35 to 40 mph, with gusts from 50 to 60 mph in some areas, and that would have kept the tankers on the ground,

Never kept us on the ground before. Why start now?

When the wind gets that high, yes, it starts to make retardant drops ineffective and hard to target...but typically firefighting takes place during high wind and storm activity...that's what's driving the fire, and that's when tankers go to work.

Personally, I prefer to stick on the ground when it gets like that; it's beyond most firefighting capability, ground, or air.

 

[agpilot34]

Hmm, I thought that much wind would keep even the heavys on the ground. But, I'm more familiar with SEAT capabilities than I am with the heavys. At any rate, you are right, those conditions make it a tough time in the air OR on the ground. We finally got a handle on the fire we've been working on yesterday evening, and it's completely contained now, unless the wind kicks it up again today.

 

[Grumman guy]

My previous post and comparison to Hurricane Katrina was merely limited to the fact that, just like Katrina, everyone and their cousin new that the s#$t was about to hit the fan and not a hole lot of preperations were made. Here in California, when we have a wind event, preperations are made, aircraft, crews and, equipment are prepositioned in areas where they will be needed. At least as far as the aircraft are concearned, this did not happen in OK and TX.

I do realise however, that in TX and OK rural areas, each VFD is its own little kingdom and that they have no ICS system. This greatley reduces there effectivness in handeling large incidents such as these. I am, and never would, imply that the FF in OK and TX did not do everything they could and bust their collective buts doing it to handle the situation. Just like rescue workers(for the most part) that responded to Hurricane Katrina.

But like Katrina, you can not sit here and tell me that more resources in OK-TX would not have made a difference. I saw several fires on the news rompin' and stompin' with not a soul around them. At the time there was more firfighting resources(airtankers, FF's, engines, dozers, water tenders, overhead) sitting idle around the various western states than you could shake a stick at. Would this have made a difference? I would like to think so.


And yes, we happen to have some pretty good fires here in CA as well from time to time . And yes I have been on the ground and in the air in situations just as bad and maybe a little worse.

All I am saying is that like Katrina they new it was coming and more could have been done in preperation.

Decisions that take place far above your head as a volunteer firefighter, so dont get offended.

Good job, be safe, and keep a foot in the black.

 

[avbug]

In all fairness to the central states, making a comparison against the CDF fifedom and Region 5 is a poor effort; and no, there's no comparison to the emergency efforts following Katrina, nor the failure to evacuate. Certainly no comparison to California, unless you talk urban interface where everyone lets the scrub grow under their redwood decks with no defensible space.

No ICS in Oklahoma? You don't think that rural VFD in Texas and Oklahoma train to the same NFPA and Firefighter II standards that everyone else uses, including the same methods of ICS, accountability, etc? Perhaps the same air resources aren't there, and perhaps they don't experience wildland fire the same as other areas do on as regular a basis, but that's no reason to insult the efforts of those who are working extremely hard given the limited resources they enjoy.

In California, yes, CDF prepositions aircraft...but that's because CDF has aircraft. Texas and Oklahoma failed to preposition their tanker fleet...guess what? No tanker fleet.

Those states have been retaining SEAT aircraft that have been in fairly continuous use, and just as LAT's, more are enroute. Still...each state did what they could with what they had, and continue to do so.

I've heard a lot of folks say that more could have been done to prevent what occured during Katrina...the only preventative measure would have been evacuation. Can you imagine evacuating southern California every time there's the possibility of an earthquake? People wouldn't do it, and most couldn't afford to evacuate constantly...especially those who don't have enough to make it paycheck to paycheck. Same for the folks in much of southern LA...there's a more accurate comparison between LA and L.A.

Decisions that take place far above your head as a volunteer firefighter, so dont get offended.

Sounds like just a hint of condescencion there, don't you think?

 

[Grumman guy]

Who insulted anyone? Maybe you should re-read the post. Secondley, where there A/C available to be pre-positioned to OK and TX, I think so. Could more have been done to be prepared-ALWAYS!(in CA or anywhere) I am sure decisions are being made above youre head, there are above mine, and I am left to deal with them. Please explain how this is condescending.

I guess I am just bitter and upset at the Forest Circuss for the treatment and regard for the Airtanker. At no time did I mean to disrespect or monday morning quarterback any of the FD or FF's that obviously did an outstanding job in the plains.

The same thing happens everywhere I guess, I am just tired of seeing reaction to dissasters instead of proaction. And I never once mentioned a preemptive evacuation.

 

[avbug]

Evacuation was what would have made the difference for Kartrina. Though you didn't mention it, it needn't be mentioned. Compare Katrina to anything,and evacuation is first and foremost the most critical element of the entire operation...the fact that people stayed was the reason that there were people to be rescued. The fact that people couldn't leave, is often overlooked.

The USFS is responsible for USFS lands. Not BIA, not BLM, not Texas State or Oklahoma State lands. Not even California State lands. Only USFS lands...designated forests and forestry lands. Are you suggesting that the USFS should preposition tankers under contract to USFS, when the tankers aren't on contract, on their own budgets, to places out of the USFS jurisdiction?

A better question might be why the States didn't request them...and you know the answer to that. These states see 40 knot winds as a daily ambient condition...they'd be broke in no time flat if they kept tankers on standby all the time. They see dry conditions constantly, with low fuel moistures...yes, in the West, we see low fuel moistures and high winds, coupled with higher temperatures, as a Red Flag condition...but they see it constantly. There's a reason we don't have a regular fire season in Hooker, Oklahoma, where we do in Grangeville, ID...or Lancaster, CA.

It's very easy to think in terms of what you might do in California, where overkill is the norm, where fifteen helicopters, and ten or twenty tankers get scrambled along with thirty engines and a dozen ambulances for a reported single tree fire. California has the budget, the public pressure, the resources, and the frequency of fire to justify it...in a place where one in ten or fifteen dispatches turns into an actual flying fire. Not so in Texas, or Oklahoma. Fire is a part of the budget in the California legislature, because it's part of the landscape and a known quantity. It happens every year. It happens big. Not so in Texas and Oklahoma. Or Nebraska. Or many other states.

I'm sickened by the state of contracting with tanker ops on the federal scale, too. So much has been said on the subject that little need be said for the next two centures, and we'd still be inundated with repetative comments on the topic. Certain who are now gone from federal service should have been drawn and quartered, and I'll probably badly hurt old Tony if I ever see him in person again...just on principle. Perhaps those losing their houses in Texas should look to Tony and Cronies for financial relief, to some degree...it was his own personal crusade that largely crippled the federal air response to fire.

Conversely, where is the tactical use of other air resources, such as more SEATs? A great many are sitting idle right now, and could easily be in use. Budgets near the breaking point, no FEMA funds from which to draw...and the rumor mill still rife with suggestions that there may not be much of an airshow this year due to a combination of Iraq and Katrina...there's only so much money to go around. Bomb and flood the world, and there's little left in the coffers to fight fire when it burns.

I've seldom been on a fire that couldn't have been handled better...large complex fires, anyway. We've all seen it. Sitting idle until the burn period every day, waiting for that magic window around three o' clock when they finally call us to go drop on something. Meanwhile the fire grows and gets bigger. We all know it will. Not until it finally blows up during the burn period do we finally get launched, and then when it's too far gone.

I sat and watched some sixteen or seventeen separate burns (lightening) grow together from the base in Billings, once. We wanted to fly (of course), but it was on state and private lands. Not until buildings began burning and a town began to get burned over did we get launched...and then even finding the houses or town in the smoke was nearly impossible. Retardant required full salvos, because single doors were just getting carried with the wind. It was rough, and the fire was running, and much more difficult to control. We could have cut it early, we could have attacked smaller starts, rather than fully involved structures and running fires through urban interface...but that's when it was handed to us because nobody wanted to pay the bills early on in the fire. No surprises there...

Yes, CDF and Region 5 tend to attack fires early with a lot of resources, and don't take chances...lessons learned the hard way and backed up with heavy public scrutiny. Movie stars and expensive homes in those interface territories, and a lot of clout to see it gets done, not to mention prestaged resources, and the resources to prestage. None of that exists in rural oklahoma, where Dee Perkins and his aging wife in their trailer don't merit the same political clout on the voter scale when the fire comes knocking on their door...just the same as public interest. Michael Jackson's accusers merited more air time in the public eye than do those losing their homes in Texas...who will pay the bills and bring in the resources until they're absolutely needed? I can't do it from my pocket, and neither can you...and following Katrina, neither can the feds.

The dollar, however unfortunate it may be, is a finite thing.