Any new ABX info?

[Box-Hauler]

No, why would ANA give us premium seats that they could otherwise sell for ~$9000 each? ANA's answer to the problem was for them to make it a domicile.

ID90s, and other non-rev passes, can not be used for business travel. They are for personal travel only.

The company bid the contract with no idea how they'd operate it. This was quite clear when they were unable to produce workable schedules on their own.

LJ, I know ID 90 are for non-rev. space available travel, but dont ya think that ANA would cut us some deal. I mean if your ANA and the option is to give up 2 seats on 1 fight once a week to keep your Million dollar cargo venture up and running I bet they would give us the seat. They probably have at least 2 seats a week or even a day that go unused. All you have to do is bump a passanger or move some people around. Unlike cargo, passanger airlines do not guarantee that you will be delivery by 10:00am.

 

[LarryinTN]

dont ya think that ANA would cut us some deal.

Everyone involved says that they are not. ANA's answer to this was for us to open a domicile in Japan.

 

[xspud]

Everyone involved says that they are not. ANA's answer to this was for us to open a domicile in Japan.

That seems fairly consistent with terms for the other non-national ANA pilots. They don't give the contract pilots much help. The majority (perhaps all) of ANA's contract pilots commute to Japan on their own time and partially at their own expense. Depending on the contract, some get a commuting allowance but I've heard it usually doesn't cover the cost. I believe they do get some reduced rate (ZED?) travel. I'm not sure that the contract pilots can even get the right to reside or bring their families over for the duration of the contract. Never been able to get an answer on that one. Anyway, ANA doesn't go out of their way to help their contract pilots get to and from work.

 

[Rouge Warrior]

That seems fairly consistent with terms for the other non-national ANA pilots. They don't give the contract pilots much help. The majority (perhaps all) of ANA's contract pilots commute to Japan on their own time and partially at their own expense. Depending on the contract, some get a commuting allowance but I've heard it usually doesn't cover the cost. I believe they do get some reduced rate (ZED?) travel. I'm not sure that the contract pilots can even get the right to reside or bring their families over for the duration of the contract. Never been able to get an answer on that one. Anyway, ANA doesn't go out of their way to help their contract pilots get to and from work.

ANA contractors provide commuters with money for tickets up to 1400 a month, STAR alliance travel bennies ZED/ID90/ID50 fares for themselves and families. Contracts are set up in a way to give the pilots 8-10 days off in a row so they can go home, you are correct in that they are not given Visa's to reside in japan(the taxes would kill you anyway).

 

[HeavyjetDC8]

Having said all that, the ABX contract is a unique venture for ANA. If we do a good job, they may decide that it works well enough to continue using us.

A fair enough comment from xspud; and our being well and truly continually used without a get-out-of-jail-free clause is probably what's going to happen.

The feedback referenced to our new contract is less than encouraging, and the fact that it's the usual enthusiastic but head up his own rear-end individual negotiating on our supposed behalf means, more than likely, that yet another bag of crap is about to be dropped into our collective laps.

23 days away? Something of a joke really, although not a particularly funny one. With the assassination of Danny Boy (round of applause) I was naive enough to hope for positive changes but now fear that others need to be dragged kicking and screaming out of the way before we make any real progress.

So, fingers crossed that our erstwhile negotiator doesn't do too much damage and feel free to vote No for anything involving more than 15 days away unless there is a clear and unambiguous statement to the effect that those wishing to refuse the ANA abuse will be left out of it. And don't think that you're out of it because you're in the DC9 because sooner rather than later, it's going to be time for warm fuzzy wishes of welcome aboard.

And Penguin...a day off is an X day. Count the Xs on a NS line - if you come up with 18 or 19 post it here and I'll bid it. But you won't find any NS lines with 18 Xs and I'll consequently not be bidding any although I have in the past been stuck with one of these lines on our new 767 aircraft. 18 X days my ass; more like 13. A triumph of style over substance in which flying with the sun above the horizon counts for more than a day off.

 

[penguin22]

And Penguin...a day off is an X day. Count the Xs on a NS line - if you come up with 18 or 19 post it here and I'll bid it. But you won't find any NS lines with 18 Xs and I'll consequently not be bidding any although I have in the past been stuck with one of these lines on our new 767 aircraft. 18 X days my ass; more like 13. A triumph of style over substance in which flying with the sun above the horizon counts for more than a day off.

Geez, you gotta live local, OK? With a N/S line, they’re day trips, you’re home for dinner with the Mrs and kids, sleeping in your own bed 18-19 times a month (and on their sleep schedule). I think the point has been made that a few of us like em. So whats your problem? Sounds like what’s good for a few at the top is no good unless the whole group benefits. Whats bad for a few at the bottom is bad for the whole group. You guys need to quit attacking the seniority system.

 

[HeavyjetDC8]

So whats your problem? Sounds like what’s good for a few at the top is no good unless the whole group benefits. You guys need to quit attacking the seniority system.

Does the whole group pay union dues? All who pay should benefit. Junior members aren't here to subsidize the life styles of the rich and famous.

This is of course the 1224 problem: disproportionate affirmative action for certain minority groups at the expense of the dues paying majority. Not what unionism is about - more of a racket really.

 

[LarryinTN]

You guys need to quit attacking the seniority system.

We aren't attacking the seniority system. There's nothing wrong with having N/S lines as long as they aren't being forced onto those who don't want them.

 

[xspud]

OK, being a 9 guy I've never paid any attention to the N/S lines. So I took a look at last months 767 bid. As far as popularity goes, it looks like there were an even number of good N/S lines and bad N/S lines. Of the 14 lines, half went to the top 50% and half to the bottom 50%. 4 went to the top ten but 2 went to the bottom three.

There's always going to be good lines and bad lines, good will always go senior, bad junior. That's understood. We watch out for the junior member by trying to make sure that there's a limit to "bad".

Isn't the point that we have a problem when exceptions to the contract continue indefinitely? That it's an elephant-sized loophole when rules designed to implement the 767 as a new aircraft will still be applied when we're an all 767 fleet? Sort of like if the 23 on/23 off ANA schedules get applied to all sorts of other operations?

 

[Box-Hauler]

Isn't the point that we have a problem when exceptions to the contract continue indefinitely? That it's an elephant-sized loophole when rules designed to implement the 767 as a new aircraft will still be applied when we're an all 767 fleet? Sort of like if the 23 on/23 off ANA schedules get applied to all sorts of other operations?

Ahmen brother. The issue is not who gets a better vacation month due to a N/S line. The issue is that whatever deals we give the company to get this ANA thing flying is going to be with us forever plus a day. If the N/S lines are so great and they might be lets make it that way for the DC 8 / 9. A loop hole is a loop hole, don't care if it is a good hole not.