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Any Chances For Delta Furloughees

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Bluewanabe,

IF you think that Delta didn't help Comair grow, then you are wrong. Obviously our feed helped you, and yours helped us. Delta mainline had huge profits back then, when fares were super high. The reason you are doing well now is that Delta saw that the passengers were slow at coming back and that they could fill your planes and not ours---but as people do return eventually, our planes will be used again. And, as the fares fall, your planes become less profitable due to the lack of seats. Bigger planes are needed to cover the costs, and that is where 100 seaters come into play. With Jetblue and Airtran charging so little, a full 50 seat RJ at $59 one way fares won't make any profits. The larger planes will help out in the future. Also, I did not mean that you guys didn't help out during the late '90s--and I am sure you helped a lot, but mainline really did shine then. Let's hope we do again soon.


Medflyer,

I do agree with your assessment about management. I think we often take the conservative side and don't take chances. We don't advertise very much, and we pull out of markets without putting up a fight sometimes. I think we would all take more cuts if we had a common goal and fought together. I hope that comes true some day.

Networ-king,

I think you are a little hard on medflyer. I think he wants us to get better too. But, we will be around a lot longer than most of the majors, and we would get bigger and stronger if one or more of them do not survive. I would rather try to expand or compete on our own, but what do I know?


Bye Bye--General Lee:rolleyes:
 
If the furloughees want to come back, why don't they put pressure on the folks directly responsible for their furlough and the RJDC mess?

Had Giambusso had not made the Connection effort to unify the pilots performing Delta flying out to be a "seniority grab" and let the ALPA merger process go forward the Comair and ASA pilots would have been stapled below the furloughees and there would be no race for the bottom.

ALPA, on behalf of the Eagle pilots, just made a bid for American's 100 seat flying. The RJDC litigation is predicated on contract 96 scope, when ASA had airplanes over 100 seats in operation. All of us ALPA members need to stop bidding on each others' flying and driving wages down as the result. The only way to fix this is to bargain collectively, a solution the Delta MEC refuses to participate in.

Obviously ALPA has gone in the wrong direction and a lot of junior Delta pilots were harmed by the D MEC's efforts to firm up support by demonizing the other pilot groups on the property. Why is it that Southwest and Jet Blue pilots are "friends" of Delta pilots when Comair pilots are the "enemy?" Believe me, the Comair, ASA and Delta pilots have a lot more interests in common than do the low cost airlines that are lowering RASM's that our employer can fund our operations with.

Since the Delta MEC in effect runs ALPA at present, there is no better place to effect change. Obviously the MEC's current direction is not working - lets divert to a more suitable destination.
 
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Fins,

Let's say you're right about the things that happened in the past with the Delta MEC.....(Except RJDC) Anyways----what would you do right now to get our Delta furloughs back into cockpits? Right now. The only new airplanes I see are future RJs....And maybe 100 seaters. We will have 1060 guys/gals out on DEC 1st. How would you get them back into the air? Just curious.

Bye Bye--General Lee:rolleyes:
 
General Lee :

It does not matter what I would do. There is already a legal framework in place for ALPA to have the Delta, ASA and Comair integrated transportation system declared an integrated transportation system under the rules of the NMB. Then ALPA should appoint a neutral third party to administer the union's own merger and fragmentation policy to figure out how we would be integrated.

Based on paycheck, or equipment, that is a staple. However, given that the furloughees have already been sailed down the river by their MEC, it could be argued that the staple should be effective the day the PID was initially requested at the 2000 ALPA Board meeting. Who knows how the details would be worked out and everyone has opinions. We do know that the next pilot hired would be a Delta pilot and with every airplane, Delta would grow.

And while that process goes along, we can argue the merits on the bulletin boards!

But, our future would be more secure without your fear that your flying is being underbid and our fear that our flying is being taken away by our own union. Our contracts would be one contract and all flying would be performed by Delta pilots.

The only way to restore this industry is to bargain together. Thanks for asking.

~~~^~~~
 
Fins,

Personally, I would have NO PROBLEM with a staple. I am sure there could be some sort of fences added so no additional DCI furloughs would happen, and the furloughed Delta guys could blend back in as new airplanes arrive. I just don't think that Delta would agree to that, but maybe they would if we forced them to with promises of paycuts etc......Is NW trying to do that? I think we have the upper hand, and if they do not agree nothing will be settled until 2007 (2 years after negotiations begin). We shall see.

Bye Bye--General Lee;)
 
I would have NO PROBLEM with a staple.

The only possible result of the ALPA fragmentation and integration policy enactment would have been a staple. We don't need to rehash what the net result of that would have been, i.e. no furloughs at mainline.

At this time the only benefits to mgmt of a staple would be no restrictions to RJ growth while mainline furloughees would occupy all new RJ positions until recalled to their previous mainline seniority position or some other scenario.

Whether or not anybody could get this pushed through I have no idea.
 
RJCAP,

If managment wants a lot of new RJs or 100 seaters, they will have to deal with Dalpa, otherwise our contract expires on May 1st, 2005, and expect 2 more years to negotiate. That means no orders until 2007. That doesn't sound good, does it? But, they have to address our needs as well, and we have 1060 still on the street after Dec 1st. A staple could help, but with fences of course. But, I don't think Delta would like to have us all on one list....

Bye Bye---General Lee;) :rolleyes:
 
Bluewanabe said:
General,
I hate to keep going with this, but in the late 90's Comair had a double diget profit margin. I don't think Delta grew "MY" airline. Comair grew on it's own.

COMAIR grew because of the DL code DAL management was allowed to put on CMR flights due to the DAL PWA. When DAL threatened to change the relationship of the previous 10 years, CMR management readily agreed to be purchased by DAL as a wholly owned subsidiary and as such, CMR management agreed in writing to be bound by the DAL PWA. CMR management was well aware that the DAL profit gravy train they had existed on was coming to an end.

Section 1 of the DAL PWA prior to the acquisition of CMR

" This PWA will be binding upon any affiliate. The Company will not conclude any agreement or arrangement that establishes an affiliate unless such affiliate agrees in writing as an irrevocable condition of such agreement or arrangement to be bound by this PWA and if the affiliate is an air carrier or parent or subsidiary of an air carrier, to operate as part of a single carrier with the Company in accordance with the terms of this PWA, unless the affiliate operates only permitted aircraft types."


E N Q U I R E R B U S I N E S S C O V E R A G E
Sunday, October 24, 1999
Comair faced tough decision to sell



BY AMY HIGGINS
The Cincinnati Enquirer
This much was certain: Comair Inc. would cease to exist as it had for the past two decades.
Years of record-setting profits would come to an end. A track record as the fastest appreciating airline stock would be over. And the story of the little airline that changed the industry would have an abrupt ending.
David Mueller knew that two Saturdays ago when he stepped off the plane from Atlanta and 15 minutes later, stepped into the boardroom at Comair's Erlanger headquarters. The fate was sealed in another five hours, after the airline's board of directors voted unanimously to sell the company to Delta Air Lines for $23.50 a share.
''Was there an emotion of, 'God, I wish there was things that we could do to keep this thing going as it was the last 15 years?' That wasn't going to happen. It's not going to happen,'' said Mr. Mueller, who founded the airline 22 years ago and continues to be its holding company's chairman and CEO.
''Our company was going to be a different company one way or another in the very near future, and it was our job to figure out what that looks like.''
During those five hours Oct. 16 in the boardroom -- the third meeting in two weeks -- the directors contemplated three possible paths that had emerged:
Sign another agreement with Delta. That would enable Comair to continue feeding the major carrier passengers from small and midsized cities. Because of increasing competition in the regional airline arena, any new agreement promised to significantly cut Comair's revenues and potential for growth. The 10-year agreement under which Comair has been flying as a Delta Connection carrier expires this month.
Don't sign the contract. That would allow Delta to join with another airline and leave Comair to either seek another major carrier or risk the uncertain skies alone.
Sell the company to Delta. The cost: a share price that's a 31 percent premium over its most recent close.
None of the options were what Mr. Mueller -- who piloted Comair's first flights to northern Ohio in 1977 -- or other executives wanted to do. The option they chose, however, might have been inevitable.
''There's a lot of things in life that you may want to do or may not want to do -- but know you have to do because it's best,'' Mr. Mueller told The Enquirer Wednesday, two days after announcing Comair's sale to Delta.
Mr. Mueller said the first two options were seriously considered. Company executives spent weeks compiling and analyzing industry data, such as looking at similar agreements between major and regional carriers. Other regionals are catching up with Comair's use of the jets that revolutionized the industry and led to record-setting profits -- but they're flying them for a smaller piece of the revenue pie.
Comair executives concluded that a new agreement with Delta -- or any other major carrier -- would be different enough that Comair's revenues, profits and stock value could not be sustained. Analysts agree that one way or another, the good times were over.
''In my opinion, Delta was going to use their leverage to take some of Comair's revenues,'' said Jim Parker, airline analyst and managing director of SunTrust Equitable Securities in Atlanta. ''Profits would come down, and in turn, the stock price would come down.''
Mr. Parker said slashed profits and share prices also would result if Comair risked becoming an independent airline.
Still, taking risks is nothing new to the Mueller family. David Mueller started at age 15 taking those risks by learning to fly. He sought to get into commercial aviation during the late 1970s, during the uncertain atmosphere of federal deregulation.
In 1977, Mr. Mueller and his father, Raymond, sunk almost $60,000 -- mostly from their collective savings -- into buying the assets of Wings Air, another commuter airline that was in bankruptcy. They wanted to risk succeeding where another had failed.
The elder Mr. Mueller remains on Comair's board but has not been involved in the operation of the airline for about 12 years. He retired as chairman in 1990. Contacted at his Florida home last week, he declined to be interviewed.
David Mueller said he and his father leveraged many of their assets, especially in those early days when cash flow tightened after a crash in 1979. An engine inexplicably died, sending the plane down and killing 8 people. The start-up carrier then had such a hard time attracting Cincinnati passengers that it moved the bulk of its operations to Dayton for eight months.
''Dad had to make some (investment) moves, I had to make some moves, but we got out of that relatively quickly,'' Mr. Mueller said.
During even those hardest times, with two small children at home, Mr. Mueller said he never thought about giving up.
''I would always take a big risk for something that I believe in,'' he said. ''You've got to have the idea and the intelligence to pursue that idea.''
Comair's biggest risk came in the early 1990s when Mr. Mueller sought to introduce regional jets to the flying public. No one had considered using the aircraft, which are more expensive to buy and operate than the industry-standard turboprops.
But jets are quieter, are more comfortable, are faster and can fly farther than other commuter aircraft.
And they were right. The jets' popularity, along with a revenue-sharing agreement signed in 1989 that didn't account for the jets' profitability, are keys to Comair's wild success on Wall Street.
''We bet the company in 1990 when we ordered the first jet. That was a billion-five ($1.5 billion for 50 jets) on a company that at that time had a net worth of $100 million, $150 million,'' Mr. Mueller said. ''But we all believed that was the wave of the future and as it turned out now everybody's trying to play catch up.''
Indeed, most regional carriers -- including others that fly as the Delta Connection in other parts of the country -- have added jets to their livery and have hundreds more on order. Atlantic Coast Airlines last month signed a contract to fly 45 of their jets for Delta in the Northeast.
''I will bet my bonus that it's nowhere near what our contract that expires is like,'' Mr. Mueller said.
The explanation is still hard to take for shareholders like Joe Dooley, a 28-year-old cellular technician who bought several hundred shares of Comair for $25.50 each in March.
Mr. Dooley said he bought Comair as a long-term investment after researching the company and finding it performed well for shareholders. But now, he wants to avoid selling.
''I'm going to take a substantial loss,'' he said. ''It's not going to bankrupt me, but it's a disappointment to me.''
Mr. Mueller said the disappointment could be worse with the alternatives the board considered. Airline stocks in general have been sluggish in recent months, and Comair's showed no promise of repeating its 10-year average annual return of almost 35 percent.
''The way our stock was headed, they might have woken up Monday morning with a $15 stock price,'' he said.
At $23.50 a share, Mr. Mueller personally stands to make $23.4 million from selling his 1.3 percent stake in the company. His stock options are worth at least another $12 million, while his contract with Comair guarantees him almost $1.7 million if the company changes hands.
Mr. Mueller knows that he's set for life. With almost nothing out of his financial range, he plans to travel and pursue other interests after fulfilling his three-year commitment to Delta as an adviser.
He might breed horses; he might travel to Asia; he might spend more time with his family. Whatever he does, he'll do it with the knowledge that in October 1999, he did the best thing he could.
''Is it emotional? Hell yes, it's emotional,'' he said.''But I can tell you that the board members, employees, shareholders, customers, we can all hold our heads high.''
 
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FDJ2,

and what is your point? COMAIR GREW Because Comair generates a PROFIT!

Bottom Line. It was not DALPA's job too ask us for concessions! That is what management is for.
 
Bluewanabe,

I think management is asking you for concessions, and it isn't Dalpa's fault. Look at the other DCI carriers and see what they will do the job for---and they want to expand also. Delta management hands out the expansion, and they will give it to the lowest bidder. A lot of Comair's growth has been attributed to Delta and our feed, and our growth has also been helped by DCI. To say that Comair would have been this huge on their own is questionable. We shall never know....

Bye Bye--General Lee:rolleyes:
 
Gen,

O.K., I'll agree to disagree.

Your original post talked about "sharing the pain". Specifically DCI. DALPA did not ask me for concessions. They demanded it from management.
I did not say Delta did not help Comair grow.
Things are really starting to get twisted here.
This thread started with a furloughed pilot asking for info.

If you want to continue to sell me on lowering the bar and settling on concessions because it was suggested by another pilot group in the same union, I suggest we start a new thread.

tailwinds
 
Bluewanabe said:
FDJ2,

and what is your point? COMAIR GREW Because Comair generates a PROFIT!

CMR doesn't generate a profit, because CMR doesn't fly any of it's own code, it just gets assigned revenue and costs as management sees fit. Comair grew because Comair was given a sweetheart deal which was coming to a screaching halt in 1999. Given the option of going it alone, or accepting the terms laid out for acquisition, CMR management readily agreed to the acquisition and all limitations associated with it, as did the CMR pilots through their PWA. That was the CMR growth of the past, the CMR growth of the future, since you have no scope over any flying, will be dictated by how well you compete against Skywest, Chautaqua, ACA and ASA for the DCI flying.

FYI, the mainline generated $201,000,000 operational profit last quarter.
 
FDJ2,

I am getting real tired of going in circles here. I'm not talking about growth, scope, Skywest, Chautqua, ACA, ASA, or who gets what RJ.

I'll keep it simple. Comair makes money. NO to concession!
 
Bluewanabe said:

I'll keep it simple. Comair makes money. NO to concession!

Well that's all well and good, but just realize that those numbers can all change with the stroke of an accountants pen. Best of luck.
 
Bluewanabe,

Hey, I don't want you to take concessions. (Even though Dalpa wants everyone to "Share the pain"--and that amount has not be specified...) But, the fact is that Delta management will give out future growth to the DCI regional that wants it the most. That isn't Dalpa's fault----that is the marketplace. And, we are learning the same thing at mainline--that regular passengers won't pay a lot for fares, and we probably won't be paid as much either. That truely sucks. I wish you luck my friend.

Bye Bye--General Lee:rolleyes:
 

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