any ASA neg. update????

[AMANSWORLD]

Because as terrible as it is here, it's the lesser of many evils......Sad but true.

There is a point in ones life to say I can make as much money (haha-like we make anything respectable) and have a normal, good, less stressful life with a company who has integrity. ASA in my opinion has lost what little of that they did have. I can no longer in all honesty support either side of the fence. On side one we have Management need I say more. On the other we have ALPA and the pilot group, who in the past have chosen to authorize a strike if needed. Guess what the time has come and gone, management has called us on it and we bluffed. We are now managements pawns. I will not do this any longer. I WILL use ASA for all they are worth, until my resignation meets its last day. So for ASA management all I have to say is F!@K OFF and F!@K YOU.

 

[boknowsASA]

Has anyone ever taken a look at Horizon Pay scale. Granted they are not a DCI partner, but thats a 700 payrate we should go for! Just think of the RETRO check!!! wow!!!

Horizon ---------------ALPA Proposal*
years ------rate----------- rate
18----------121----------- 106
17 ---------117 -----------103
16 ---------114 ---------- 100
15 ---------110 ------------97
14 ---------107 ------------94
13 ---------104 ------------91
12 ---------101 ------------88
11 ----------98 ------------86
10 ----------95 ------------83
09 ----------91 ------------80
08 ----------88 ------------77
07 ----------85 ------------74
06 ----------82 ------------72
05 ----------80 ------------70
04 ----------78 ------------68
03 ----------75 ------------66
02 ----------73 ------------64
01 ----------71 ------------62

* I rounded up or down to the next dollar on ALPA proposal

 

[79%N1]

Looks like we are very far apart on the pay rates. One question, I like the pay comparison charts, but it is true that we left out Mesa, PSA, Pinnacle, and Comair, some of who have much lower pay rates. We cant just show the ones who are higher, its not a fair look.

 

[JoeMerchant]

Has anyone ever taken a look at Horizon Pay scale. Granted they are not a DCI partner, but thats a 700 payrate we should go for! Just think of the RETRO check!!! wow!!!

Horizon ALPA Proposal*
years rate rate
18 121 106
17 117 103
16 114 100
15 110 97
14 107 94
13 104 91
12 101 88
11 98 86
10 95 83
09 91 80
08 88 77
07 85 74
06 82 72
05 80 70
04 78 68
03 75 66
02 73 64
01 71 62

* I rounded up or down to the next dollar on ALPA proposal

BO, Horizon is a unique situation. As of yet, they are have not been subjected to the RFP competition that plagues the other brands. Those rates look great, and I would love to have them. That being said, I honestly believe that if we has those rates, we wouldn't have any aircraft to go with those rates. You can demand more money when you aren't subject to RFP generated competition.

 

[JoeMerchant]

Looks like we are very far apart on the pay rates. One question, I like the pay comparison charts, but it is true that we left out Mesa, PSA, Pinnacle, and Comair, some of who have much lower pay rates. We cant just show the ones who are higher, its not a fair look.

Good point. If we add those carriers to the chart, the company proposal will look even better. On the flip side, if we add Horizon to the chart, the company proposal will look worse. I am glad that this information is being put out now - you have to have ACCURATE information to make INFORMED decisions.

 

[Tarzan]

My idea for pay is this....

1) Give up the union's proposed pay and take the company offerred plan. (RJman is about to stroke out right now. I hope I fly with him some day so I can tell him how much I think of the managment and how great they are just watch you lose it)

2) Company gives pilot group union proposed 401K. This measure wold save everybody money. Keeps Uncle Sam from getting so much of your money and the company can lower it's burden of taxes as well. It will also look nice for operational costs for bidding.

That's my idea for pay. Win/ win for everybody. However there has to be some sort of repercussion for drawing this out as long as it's gone on for. 100% probably won't happen but there does need to be some. I am sure now I'll be blasted as pro-managment, blah, blah... Get over it.

 

[boknowsASA]

BO, Horizon is a unique situation. As of yet, they are have not been subjected to the RFP competition that plagues the other brands. Those rates look great, and I would love to have them. That being said, I honestly believe that if we has those rates, we wouldn't have any aircraft to go with those rates. You can demand more money when you aren't subject to RFP generated competition.

Joe your first part of your response is wrong. They were subjected to the RFP competition they are flying for Frontier out of Denver using the CRJ-700 and they lost that RFP to Rep ( I think) using the Emb-170. They will be replaced starting in March.

I agree with you that if we had those rates we wouldn't have any 700's.

 

[HoserASA]

My idea for pay is this....

12) Company gives pilot group union proposed 401K. This measure wold save everybody money. Keeps Uncle Sam from getting so much of your money and the company can lower it's burden of taxes as well. It will also look nice for operational costs for bidding.
.

Awhile back I submitted a question to AskASA, or whatevr it's called, about offering a 401K. The company responded that "it was under consideration". Lately I am hearing they have no plans to offer such a plan. Perhaps a petition with ALL employee groups signatures would start the ball rolling on this.

Hoser

 

[JoeMerchant]

Joe your first part of your response is wrong. They were subjected to the RFP competition they are flying for Frontier out of Denver using the CRJ-700 and they lost that RFP to Rep ( I think) using the Emb-170. They will be replaced starting in March.

I agree with you that if we had those rates we wouldn't have any 700's.

Actually I am aware that they lost their Frontier flying. I was talking about the Alaska flying. They are definately not competitive for any new flying.

 

[scarlet]

Let the sick calls begin, FLYING SAFE, Burning all lights all the time...turns into MX items...

Can we be as strong as COMAIR??

Comair and ASA strike and brings down Delta...read it in the headlines. Thanks to Deltas man CT.....real smart one there....Vote of no confidence to skywest to fire everyone at the G.O.

 

[JoeMerchant]

Awhile back I submitted a question to AskASA, or whatevr it's called, about offering a 401K. The company responded that "it was under consideration". Lately I am hearing they have no plans to offer such a plan. Perhaps a petition with ALL employee groups signatures would start the ball rolling on this.

Hoser

Hoser, I believe you are refering to a ROTH 401k. I agree that would be a good addition. Rather than a petition however, it could be part of a compromise on the 401k section of the contract. That would be more effective than a petition.

 

[boknowsASA]

ok lets put some more out there:

----------Horizon ------ALPA Proposal* ----company proposal*----Comair**
years ------rate----------- rate----------------rate--------------rate
18----------121----------- 106----------------104---------------118
17 ---------117 -----------103----------------101---------------115
16 ---------114 -----------100-----------------98---------------112
15 ---------110 ------------97-----------------95---------------108
14 ---------107 ------------94-----------------92---------------105
13 ---------104 ------------91-----------------89---------------102
12 ---------101 ------------88-----------------87----------------99
11 ----------98 ------------86-----------------84----------------96
10 ----------95 ------------83-----------------81----------------93
09 ----------91 ------------80-----------------78----------------90
08 ----------88 ------------77-----------------75----------------86
07 ----------85 ------------74-----------------73----------------83
06 ----------82 ------------72-----------------71----------------81
05 ----------80 ------------70-----------------69----------------78
04 ----------78 ------------68-----------------67----------------76
03 ----------75 ------------66-----------------65----------------74
02 ----------73 ------------64-----------------63----------------72
01 ----------71 ------------62-----------------61----------------69

* on both ALPA and the Company proposal I rounded up or down to the next dollar.

** With Comair in BK I don't know what will happen but as far as I know this is still their current Capt rate for the 700.

 

[HoserASA]

Hoser, I believe you are refering to a ROTH 401k. I agree that would be a good addition. Rather than a petition however, it could be part of a compromise on the 401k section of the contract. That would be more effective than a petition.

Yeah, I meant Roth 401K. Don't know if that's being considered by the Negotiating Committee or not. I'll try and find out, or if someone out there knows?

Hoser

 

[JoeMerchant]

ok lets put some more out there:

----------Horizon ------ALPA Proposal* ----company proposal*----Comair**
years ------rate----------- rate----------------rate--------------rate
18----------121----------- 106----------------104---------------118
17 ---------117 -----------103----------------101---------------115
16 ---------114 -----------100-----------------98---------------112
15 ---------110 ------------97-----------------95---------------108
14 ---------107 ------------94-----------------92---------------105
13 ---------104 ------------91-----------------89---------------102
12 ---------101 ------------88-----------------87----------------99
11 ----------98 ------------86-----------------84----------------96
10 ----------95 ------------83-----------------81----------------93
09 ----------91 ------------80-----------------78----------------90
08 ----------88 ------------77-----------------75----------------86
07 ----------85 ------------74-----------------73----------------83
06 ----------82 ------------72-----------------71----------------81
05 ----------80 ------------70-----------------69----------------78
04 ----------78 ------------68-----------------67----------------76
03 ----------75 ------------66-----------------65----------------74
02 ----------73 ------------64-----------------63----------------72
01 ----------71 ------------62-----------------61----------------69

* on both ALPA and the Company proposal I rounded up or down to the next dollar.

** With Comair in BK I don't know what will happen but as far as I know this is still their current Capt rate for the 700.

BO, those CMR rates WOULD be correct if they had received their last pay bump. However ALPA agreed to forgo the final bump, so the current rates are about 6% lower than the ones you posted. That being said, they are still higher TODAY than either the company proposal or the ALPA proposal. However the current CMR demands in BK are for 700 rates that top out at about $98 per hour.

 

[boknowsASA]

-----Horizon ---ALPA Pro* --ASA pro*----Comair**---Mesa--Republic***
years --rate---- rate--------rate---------rate--------rate---rate
18-----121----- 106---------104---------118---------87----101
17 ----117 -----103---------101---------115---------86-----99
16 ----114 -----100----------98---------112---------85-----96
15 ----110 ------97----------95---------108---------83-----94
14 ----107 ------94----------92---------105---------81-----91
13 ----104 ------91----------89---------102---------78-----88
12 ----101 ------88----------87----------99---------76-----86
11 -----98 ------86----------84----------96---------74-----83
10 -----95 ------83----------81----------93---------72-----80
09 -----91 ------80----------78----------90---------70-----78
08 -----88 ------77----------75----------86---------68-----76
07 -----85 ------74----------73----------83---------66-----73
06 -----82 ------72----------71----------81---------64-----71
05 -----80 ------70----------69----------78---------62-----69
04 -----78 ------68----------67----------76---------60-----67
03 -----75 ------66----------65----------74---------58-----65
02 -----73 ------64----------63----------72---------57-----61
01 -----71 ------62----------61----------69---------55-----57

* on both ALPA and the Company proposal I rounded up or down to the next dollar.

** With Comair in BK I don't know what will happen but as far as I know this is still their current Capt rate for the 700.

*** Republic was based on the EMB-170 same seat size.

Mesa also tops out at $90 at 20yrs.

 

[Medeco]

I dont know why a 3% upgrade in pay for the FO 70's is so outragous?

Until company moves from zero on the 70 FO pay, why should ALPA move off of 3%?

The only thing management has done is come off a proposed paycut for the 700.

The 700 is were 90% of growth will be for future flying.

ALL the naysayers are falling pray to the constant indoctrination on managments part to lower the expectations of ASA pilots.

I'm just as ready to get this thing done and over with, but I'm not willing to throw up my arms after 4 years and say, ohh well.

I could care less about how much managment has or has not moved on the 50 seat scale, because this is a dying plane and will be used less and less over time.

I for one am glad we have the current CNC in there rather than someone like JB who would have caved in and fallen prey to defeatism(sp) aleast a year ago ,if not earlier.

THIS is a Negotiation with heavy implications on both sides, one day management showes up with good faith, the next, nothing.
ALL in an effort to drag this out, because as long as progress is being made inch by inch, the NMB will not release ASA pilots.

We cant cave now, and we should "cherry pick" all we can until it comes down to the wire of real give and take, and so far ASA managment has done very little giving.

ASA CNC, STAND YOUR GROUND! I applaud you.

Medeco

 

[boknowsASA]

on this chart I took Horizon out and put AA Eagle in it's place. I agree with Joe that Horizon has an awesome deal but we should not compare them with us.

------Eagle ---ALPA Pro* --ASA pro*----Comair**---Mesa--Republic***
years --rate---- rate--------rate---------rate--------rate---rate
18------98----- 106---------104---------118---------87----101
17 -----97 -----103---------101---------115---------86-----99
16 -----96 -----100----------98---------112---------85-----96
15 -----94 ------97----------95---------108---------83-----94
14 -----92 ------94----------92---------105---------81-----91
13 -----89 ------91----------89---------102---------78-----88
12 -----87 ------88----------87----------99---------76-----86
11 -----84 ------86----------84----------96---------74-----83
10 -----82 ------83----------81----------93---------72-----80
09 -----79 ------80----------78----------90---------70-----78
08 -----77 ------77----------75----------86---------68-----76
07 -----75 ------74----------73----------83---------66-----73
06 -----73 ------72----------71----------81---------64-----71
05 -----71 ------70----------69----------78---------62-----69
04 -----69 ------68----------67----------76---------60-----67
03 -----67 ------66----------65----------74---------58-----65
02 -----65 ------64----------63----------72---------57-----61
01 -----63 ------62----------61----------69---------55-----57

* on both ALPA and the Company proposal I rounded up or down to the next dollar.

** With Comair in BK I don't know what will happen but as far as I know this is still their current Capt rate for the 700.

*** Republic was based on the EMB-170 same seat size.

Mesa also tops out at $90 at 20yrs.

 

[wms]

ok lets put some more out there:

----------Horizon ------ALPA Proposal* ----company proposal*----Comair**
years ------rate----------- rate----------------rate--------------rate
18----------121----------- 106----------------104---------------118
17 ---------117 -----------103----------------101---------------115
16 ---------114 -----------100-----------------98---------------112
15 ---------110 ------------97-----------------95---------------108
14 ---------107 ------------94-----------------92---------------105
13 ---------104 ------------91-----------------89---------------102
12 ---------101 ------------88-----------------87----------------99
11 ----------98 ------------86-----------------84----------------96
10 ----------95 ------------83-----------------81----------------93
09 ----------91 ------------80-----------------78----------------90
08 ----------88 ------------77-----------------75----------------86
07 ----------85 ------------74-----------------73----------------83
06 ----------82 ------------72-----------------71----------------81
05 ----------80 ------------70-----------------69----------------78
04 ----------78 ------------68-----------------67----------------76
03 ----------75 ------------66-----------------65----------------74
02 ----------73 ------------64-----------------63----------------72
01 ----------71 ------------62-----------------61----------------69

* on both ALPA and the Company proposal I rounded up or down to the next dollar.

** With Comair in BK I don't know what will happen but as far as I know this is still their current Capt rate for the 700.

Make that a blended rate to fly both airplanes, and I'd vote yes. Otherwise forget it.

 

[Medeco]

Awhile back I submitted a question to AskASA, or whatevr it's called, about offering a 401K. The company responded that "it was under consideration". Lately I am hearing they have no plans to offer such a plan. Perhaps a petition with ALL employee groups signatures would start the ball rolling on this.

Hoser

Are you going to explain the ROTH IRA to the rest of the employee group, because I would be willing to wager 90% have no clue what a ROTH IRA is.

Medeco

 

[JoeMerchant]

I dont know why a 3% upgrade in pay for the FO 70's is so outragous?

Until company moves from zero on the 70 FO pay, why should ALPA move off of 3%?

The only thing management has done is come off a proposed paycut for the 700.

The 700 is were 90% of growth will be for future flying.

ALL the naysayers are falling pray to the constant indoctrination on managments part to lower the expectations of ASA pilots.

I'm just as ready to get this thing done and over with, but I'm not willing to throw up my arms after 4 years and say, ohh well.

I could care less about how much managment has or has not moved on the 50 seat scale, because this is a dying plane and will be used less and less over time.

I for one am glad we have the current CNC in there rather than someone like JB who would have caved in and fallen prey to defeatism(sp) aleast a year ago ,if not earlier.

THIS is a Negotiation with heavy implications on both sides, one day management showes up with good faith, the next, nothing.
ALL in an effort to drag this out, because as long as progress is being made inch by inch, the NMB will not release ASA pilots.

We cant cave now, and we should "cherry pick" all we can until it comes down to the wire of real give and take, and so far ASA managment has done very little giving.

ASA CNC, STAND YOUR GROUND! I applaud you.

Medeco

Medeco, have you seen how much we have moved in the past several months? I applaud the CNC now also, but they have moved significantly in the past several months and that is why we are now seeing progress. In the last several months we have dropped the Bfund retirement and come down on the 700 rates significantly to better match the realities of pattern bargaining.

Whether you like it or not, agree with it or not, pattern bargaining is how ALPA negotiates. You can't ignore the patterns you don't like and only include the patterns you like. You can cherry pick all day long, but don't be surprised if that results in this never ending....

 

[JoeMerchant]

Are you going to explain the ROTH IRA to the rest of the employee group, because I would be willing to wager 90% have no clue what a ROTH IRA is.

Medeco

Here you go...
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Roth_401k

The younger you are, the bigger the savings will be tax wise.

 

[Medeco]

It will end because eventually we will have nothing left for managment to make slow progress on.

Yes I have followed this closely and have read every update.

Now you like the CNC, but months ago you were ready to sell us short and live to fight another day.

Thank god, your not in there.

If we were to rewind this process 3 years or more and insert our current progress with our current managment team at the table, we would hardly have all these people saying lets get this done, I'm sick of it.

Thats the way I look at this, only recently has goodfaith bargaining come, and we have to be patient and not sell short.

Medeco

 

[Medeco]

Here you go...
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Roth_401k

The younger you are, the bigger the savings will be tax wise.

UHHH, I wasnt talking about me big guy.

Medeco

 

[USCtrojan]

It will end because eventually we will have nothing left for managment to make slow progress on.

Yes I have followed this closely and have read every update.

Now you like the CNC, but months ago you were ready to sell us short and live to fight another day.

Thank god, your not in there.

If we were to rewind this process 3 years or more and insert our current progress with our current managment team at the table, we would hardly have all these people saying lets get this done, I'm sick of it.

Thats the way I look at this, only recently has goodfaith bargaining come, and we have to be patient and not sell short.

Medeco

I wonder if the Brass is under the gun now because from everything I've seen, Delta wants to exit Bankruptcy April 30th. I imagine, they want this here contract thingamajigger done by then. It's looking like that's not gonna happen. Scope, scope scope. If it's not in there, then what's the point of even putting this thing up for a vote? The pay rates don't look too far off from the posts. If they won't address scope, then they need to release us.

Trojan

 

[JoeMerchant]

It will end because eventually we will have nothing left for managment to make slow progress on.

Yes I have followed this closely and have read every update.

Now you like the CNC, but months ago you were ready to sell us short and live to fight another day.

Thank god, your not in there.

If we were to rewind this process 3 years or more and insert our current progress with our current managment team at the table, we would hardly have all these people saying lets get this done, I'm sick of it.

Thats the way I look at this, only recently has goodfaith bargaining come, and we have to be patient and not sell short.

Medeco

Medeco,
Define "sell ourselves short".

Did we sell ourselves short by dropping the Bfund retirement demands recently?

Did we sell ourselves short by coming off our 70 seat captain rates by 10%?

Or did we simply modify our proposal to one that is more in line with the industry standard?

Again, the only section I am really concerned with is scope and a single list, so I will probably be voting NO anyway. Payrates mean nothing to me if there aren't any aircraft to go with the rates.....

 

[PCL_128]

I like the pay comparison charts, but it is true that we left out Mesa, PSA, Pinnacle, and Comair, some of who have much lower pay rates. We cant just show the ones who are higher, its not a fair look.

Of the carriers that you mentioned, Comair has much higher rates, PSA has a blended rate, Pinnacle has an 8-year old contract that has been in Section 6 for two years, and Mesa is about to go into Section 6 this year. The ALPA proposal for 70-seat rates at ASA is more than fair, and I would say even a bit lower than I would accept if I was an ASA pilot.

 

[boknowsASA]

Of the carriers that you mentioned, Comair has much higher rates, PSA has a blended rate, Pinnacle has an 8-year old contract that has been in Section 6 for two years, and Mesa is about to go into Section 6 this year. The ALPA proposal for 70-seat rates at ASA is more than fair, and I would say even a bit lower than I would accept if I was an ASA pilot.

I agree I was not happy when I saw the 700 rate that low! The 50 is done with it's all going to be 70 seat and larger and some new turbo-prop that is where the growth will be.

In other news this just came out:

CHICAGO, Feb 7 (Reuters) - SkyWest Inc. (SKYW.O: Quote, Profile , Research), which operates regional air service for United Airlines (UAUA.O: Quote, Profile , Research) and Delta Air Lines (DALRQ.PK: Quote, Profile , Research), said on Wednesday its fourth-quarter earnings fell 19.3 percent because of airport closings related to bad weather.
Net profit fell to $31.2 million, or 48 cents per share, from $38.7 million, or 64 cents per share, in the year-ago period.


if(!CMSB_ID){var CMSB_ID=""} CMSB_ID+="020707_MIDART_editorschoice,";document.write('');

During the quarter, Denver International Airport closed for two days due to snow, forcing SkyWest to cancel nearly all of its Denver flights. The company estimated it canceled about 2,850 flights because of the stormy weather.
The earnings were in line with the company's profit warning on Jan. 15 when it said it would earn between 44 cents and 50 cents per share. Wall Street analysts, on average, expected SkyWest to earn 46 cents per share, according to Reuters Estimates.
Revenue rose 6.4 percent to $789.6 million.
The company, based in St. George, Utah, operates SkyWest and Atlantic Southeast Airlines, which it acquired last year from Delta, as wholly-owned subsidiaries.
SkyWest ended the quarter with $651.9 million in cash and marketable securities.

 

[VeeOne]

Am I not mistaken, or did the last connection mention that the CNC briefly discussed scope and profit sharing with the company. Also, has our CNC made mention of the mediators intentions regarding future sessions, or are we in a holding pattern in this thing? (again)

Thanks for the info- haven't been able to pull up the connection yet- all I have is heresay from another source.

 

[Medeco]

I could go on and on.

Only six month to a year ago did scope become your big issue, lucky for you and all of us, our/your CNC is demanding scope that means something.

Our opening 700 rate was just that, an opener. Only recently (6 months)has this managment come to the table with ANYTHING on the real issues. Until then, why should the CNC move an inch?

Now the real GOOD FAITH negotiations are happening, but the company is also dragging their feet till COMAIR is hammered out.

I remember you saying that we should just live to fight another day, now your ready to vote no?

Medeco

 

[VeeOne]

Of the carriers that you mentioned, Comair has much higher rates, PSA has a blended rate, Pinnacle has an 8-year old contract that has been in Section 6 for two years, and Mesa is about to go into Section 6 this year. The ALPA proposal for 70-seat rates at ASA is more than fair, and I would say even a bit lower than I would accept if I was an ASA pilot.

I wouldn't hesitate to say that the Pinnacle rates and Mesa rates will still be less than what we have at ASA now.