Another Serious Question: NJA or CAL

[Gina]

NJA or back to the bottom at CAL?

I'm 5th yr. NJA @ approx. 100,000 salary.

I've got 20 years of flying left in me.

I've got mouths to feed at home.

Serious as a heart attack.

Tawk amungst yourselves.

P.S. Please respect my privacy.

 

[fly4ever]

Ask yourself how long will it take to get back (if ever) to $100,000 per year at CAL. They probably aren't done taking hits there.

 

[skiav8tor]

Not an easy decision...but then again, are there any in this industry??

My .02...I just left a corporate/charter gig for B6. I think it was right, although I won't know for another 17 years! I do miss the excitement of new and different destinations that 91/135 flying has to offer,and the $$$$, but I also wanted a schedule...hence the move to 121. You seem to have the best this industry has to offer...different destinations, good $$$, and a schedule. Not many of us have all of that. the real question is...are you happy where you are, or is the grass actually greener on the other side...??
the best thing you can do is talk with your family...

Happy Holidays,
Ski

 

[Green]

tough call....talk about rolling the dice

My inclination would be to stay. You are making 100k/year flying airplanes for a stable company, with a large percentage of the pilot group below you. With a family to feed why would you leave? The massive retirement packages are no longer there and assuming you eventually upgrade at Cal you wouldn't be making a whole lot more than you are now. Factoring in the lost wages while you wait to break 100 again you would probably lose money in the deal.

The biggest factor that would scare me off would be the rampant merger talk that is surrounding CAL. That would be a tough pill to swallow if you gave up the 100k in order to make 30k on probation, only to get furloughed as you merged with UAL or airline xyz. I don't know if you have any airline experience but it definitely is not the glamorous job it used to be. Sure there are some great times, good trips, and a little bit of cachet left but things at NJA don't look so bad either. Good luck with the call....

 

[COpilot]

I'm 18 yrs at CO, around #2200. Flying big airplanes is cool, but;

I'd say stay at NJA, or take FedEx / UPS.

 

[Lake Alice]

Obviously Cal.

Think about the future. Knowing when and where you will be going. When/what time you will going to/from work. Trip trades, bidding days on an off, dropping trips, true seniority. NJA has some perks like good hotels and catering but 7 on, 7 off sucks. NJA is perceived stability only. The fact that BK owns NJA means very little.

 

[L'il J.Seinfeld]

WOW!! you make 100K as a 5th year? That's what you'd be making at UPS under our current contract. Screw this outdated paradigm that one airline is better than another. If you are happy at NJA, you would be crazy to give it up for a legacy carrier. Count your blessings and minimize the risk.

 

[Airmike767]

Anew hire today at CAL will be close to 50% in five years.
Check the current pay scales and while CAL faces some serious debt refinancing in the next two years, it is also well positioned for the future.

Hourly Pay Rates Effective 4/1/2005

​

Captains​

First Officers​

​

Widebody​

Large
Narrowbody​

Small
Narrowbody​

Widebody​

Large
Narrowbody​

Small
Narrowbody​

Year 1

$29.97​

$29.97​

$29.97​

$29.97​

$29.97​

$29.97​

Year 2

$172.77​

$149.57​

$131.54​

$71.64​

$62.13​

$54.74​

Year 3

$174.06​

$150.89​

$132.81​

$84.26​

$73.14​

$64.45​

Year 4

$175.35​

$152.20​

$134.06​

$95.32​

$82.82​

$73.03​

Year 5

$176.63​

$153.52​

$135.33​

$104.77​

$91.14​

$80.40​

Year 6

$177.93​

$154.84​

$136.60​

$114.37​

$99.59​

$87.91​

Year 7

$179.21​

$156.16​

$137.85​

$116.96​

$101.99​

$90.09​

Year 8

$180.51​

$157.48​

$139.12​

$119.60​

$104.40​

$92.28​

Year 9

$181.79​

$158.80​

$140.38​

$121.80​

$106.45​

$94.15​

Year 10

$183.07​

$160.13​

$141.63​

$124.48​

$108.92​

$96.40​

Year 11

$184.37​

$161.44​

$142.91​

$125.81​

$110.21​

$97.61​

Year 12

$185.65​

$162.76​

$144.17​

$126.68​

$111.11​

$98.47​

Hourly Pay Rates Effective 7/1/2007

​

Captains​

First Officers​

​

Widebody​

Large
Narrowbody​

Small
Narrowbody​

Widebody​

Large
Narrowbody​

Small
Narrowbody​

Year 1

$30.57​

$30.57​

$30.57​

$30.57​

$30.57​

$30.57​

Year 2

$176.23​

$152.56​

$134.17​

$73.07​

$63.37​

$55.84​

Year 3

$177.55​

$153.91​

$135.46​

$85.94​

$74.60​

$65.74​

Year 4

$178.86​

$155.24​

$136.74​

$97.22​

$84.48​

$74.49​

Year 5

$180.17​

$156.59​

$138.04​

$106.87​

$92.96​

$82.01​

Year 6

$181.49​

$157.94​

$139.33​

$116.65​

$101.58​

$89.67​

Year 7

$182.80​

$159.29​

$140.61​

$119.30​

$104.03​

$91.89​

Year 8

$184.12​

$160.63​

$141.90​

$121.99​

$106.49​

$94.13​

Year 9

$185.43​

$161.97​

$143.18​

$124.24​

$108.58​

$96.03​

Year 10

$186.74​

$163.33​

$144.47​

$126.97​

$111.10​

$98.33​

Year 11

$188.06​

$164.67​

$145.77​

$128.33​

$112.42​

$99.57​

Year 12

$189.37​

$166.01​

$147.05​

$129.22​

$113.34​

$100.44​

​

New hires are holding B756 in EWR at the present. There is also the B Plan and other compensation to consider. Good Luck and best wishes for Christmas!

 

[Airmike767]

Sorry this is pretty hard to read. Hope you can figure it out!

 

[cgmason1]

That is a tough choice.
I used to be at NJA and am now at JB and the job and Mgt is allot better.
That being said I dont like to commute(who does) and the perks at NJA-crew food, hotel/FF points, 7/7 were nice.
As I understand it the implementation of 91K has also improved QOL on the road.

That being said I would do it all over again.

But thats just me.

Happy Festivus Everyone!

Fly Safe
Chuck

 

[Airmike767]

Chuck, best wishes to Al Spain, worked for him in Guam!
Airmike767

 

[Lake Alice]

The NJA 100k is based on a 90K base with overtime that cannot be counted on. The flying was diverse but like most thing its not all that glamorous. Fly to some exotic destination, get your gas and pax, leave. I too made the jump from frac to 121 and its the best descision I ever made. As Chuck said commuting does suck but if you live at base or don't mind the commute then take the plunge.
Every company is a gamble right now, NJA is no different. I would be more worried with that management than with any merger talks at Cal.

 

[sgu]

I do not know much about NJA other than what has been posted here but if you are making the $$$ to support your family and live where you want then the only question is if you want to trade that in for flying bigger airplanes and int'l destinations?
I would stay at NJA. Based on the current airline situation and questions looming in the future versus your present income and size,sement of industry and reputation of your current employer. Good luck w/ your decision.

 

[320AV8R]

Do what you need to do in order to be able to sleep at night, and not worry about it.

In this industry, you're not going to know if you made the right decision until after you're retired.

320AV8R

 

[Mach92]

The NJA 100k is based on a 90K base with overtime that cannot be counted on. The flying was diverse but like most thing its not all that glamorous. Fly to some exotic destination, get your gas and pax, leave. I too made the jump from frac to 121 and its the best descision I ever made. As Chuck said commuting does suck but if you live at base or don't mind the commute then take the plunge.
Every company is a gamble right now, NJA is no different. I would be more worried with that management than with any merger talks at Cal.

My man don't be tossing stones now, you to used to work at NJA. Everyone is happy YOUR happy at JB. Going to CAL is nothing but a gamble. To make up that 100K would take at least 7 years.

PS: let me know when you get tired of going JFK/LGB/BUR/SEA/SAN ETC
You mention glamorous........ isn't it the same job but a bigger plane?

 

[Gina]

thanks

Thanks for all the sincere posts!

I agree with all that Lake Alice said including that "7&7 sucks" It is tough being gone 7 days in a row. Unfortionatly I haven't found a job where I don't have to work a certain amount each month. I'm the kind of individual who would rather just get it over with as soon as possible.

The good part about it is, each time I get home it's a mini vacation. 7 days to do whatever I like, free from anything with wings. I make only 2 drives to and from the airport a month. I don't non-rev on my off days.

I actually prefer 7&7 relative to an airline reserve schedule. It's a decent number of days off per month. As an airline line holder, I'd probably need some seniority, and I'd have to put some thought and effort into bidding a line to get my minimum monthly flight time with that many days off??? Please feel free to tell me why your dog's better than mine. I think I've made up my mind to stay, but I find these posts very helpful with my decision process.

Thanks for posting the payscale. With regards to the CAL pay: How would I estimate career earnings there? Specifically, ballpark upgrade times and ball park hrs/ month. Is 80 a good average? Is widebody captain attainable withinin 20 yrs?

Thanks again and Happy Quanza

 

[GroundHog]

Continental Pay Scale

Gina,
Here's a link to the Continental Payscale.

http://www.airlinepilotcentral.com/airlines/legacy/continental-200502247.htm

 

[GogglesPisano]

Is starting over at $27,000/yr, with no benefits for 6 months, at the bottom of a legacy carrier rumored to be merging with another, really putting your family first?

 

[L'il J.Seinfeld]

Anew hire today at CAL will be close to 50% in five years.
Check the current pay scales and while CAL faces some serious debt refinancing in the next two years, it is also well positioned for the future.

Yeah right! When the age 60 thing gets changed you will not be 50% for quite a lot longer than that. And that's assuming there is not a merger. Airmike--you seem to believe in CAL. That's great and I hope the best for you. I just respectfully disagree with the hype. Merry Xmas and Happy Festivus.

 

[charley varrick]

If you are senior to me, then you definitely must choose Continental! Otherwise, if you really want to fly heavy iron, try to get hired by FedEx or UPS. Unless you plan on living in a junior Continental domicile, going there would be a lateral move, at best. Lots of downward pressure on airline wages still coming in the next few years.

Of course, this advice is worth exactly what you paid for it . . . . Good luck on your decision.

 

[Archie Bunker]

Is starting over at $27,000/yr, with no benefits for 6 months, at the bottom of a legacy carrier rumored to be merging with another, really putting your family first?

Goggles pretty much says it all here.......not to mention basic quaity of life (QOL) issues that you're unaware of at the legacy carriers.

I'm a Delta pilot, and while I can't speak for CO, I'm here to tell you that QOL for a bottom feeder F/O sucks a fat man's ass. I was hired almost 6 years ago at DL, and have moved up 4000 seniority numbers.....and guess what? I'm still at the bottom of the barrel. This is almost 2006, not 1999 anymore. Everything has gone down the toilet in terms of pay, and work rules for most legacy carriers. Commuting to reserve blows, period. Do you like working every weekend and holiday for the next couple of years? If CO isn't growing fast, you will be stuck on reserve for awhile...get used to it.

Sorry to sound so negative, but if I were making 100 large at NJA, with over 5 years of seniority, flying from my hometown, having 7 days off in a row (unheard of for a bottom feeder F/O reserve puke), I wouldn't even consider leaving unless it was FedEx or UPS offering me the job. You may not realize it now, but your QOL is pretty sweet at NJA. The move to CO would be a real eye opener in terms of QOL for you. Good luck with your decision.

 

[whymeworry?]

Thanks for all the sincere posts!

I agree with all that Lake Alice said including that "7&7 sucks" It is tough being gone 7 days in a row. Unfortionatly I haven't found a job where I don't have to work a certain amount each month. I'm the kind of individual who would rather just get it over with as soon as possible.

The good part about it is, each time I get home it's a mini vacation. 7 days to do whatever I like, free from anything with wings. I make only 2 drives to and from the airport a month. I don't non-rev on my off days.

I actually prefer 7&7 relative to an airline reserve schedule. It's a decent number of days off per month. As an airline line holder, I'd probably need some seniority, and I'd have to put some thought and effort into bidding a line to get my minimum monthly flight time with that many days off??? Please feel free to tell me why your dog's better than mine. I think I've made up my mind to stay, but I find these posts very helpful with my decision process.

Thanks for posting the payscale. With regards to the CAL pay: How would I estimate career earnings there? Specifically, ballpark upgrade times and ball park hrs/ month. Is 80 a good average? Is widebody captain attainable withinin 20 yrs?

Thanks again and Happy Quanza

Estimating career earinings at CAL (or any other airline for that matter) is a bigtime wag. There are just too many varibles on the horizon that could seriously derail your predictions... the age 60 thing, a merger with UAL, a spike in fuel prices, etc. That said, based on today's numbers, today's laws and today's business projection by CAL mgmt, a new-hire pilot will be able to hold a 737 captain position within 5 years. If the company grows as much as mgmt says it will, that number could come down to 3.5 to 4 years. Such a rapid rate of movement would mean you could hold a nice wide-body line as an F/O within that time period as well.

It's a tough call whether to go CAL or NJA. But there is no guarantee NJA will be in the same position in five years either... though I don't see the rich dropping VIP jet travel anytime soon.

Merry Christmas

 

[kaisersose]

Going to CAL is nothing but a gamble. To make up that 100K would take at least 7 years.

in five years a 5yr wb fo will make 100g's no prob

 

[Ty Webb]

Well, I can't say for sure about CAL, but as a former 91/135 guy who seriously considered offers from Flight Options in 1999 and EJA in 2001, and flew for two other frac players, I have to say "airline all the way".

What the Delta guy probably doesn't know is that every day at EJA is basically just like an airline Reserve day.

Even worse, it is often like a reserve day where you fly somewhere, then sit "ready reserve" at your destination airport for the rest of your duty period.
The difference is that there is no "hard line" waiting for you to "get off reserve". This is how it will be for good.

You may fly, you may sit, you may just be at the hotel, but you are still at the mercy of the Wheel in the Sky. Delta guy, your longest extended duty is probably pretty much par for the course at most fractionals.

Gina, it all depends on your particular preferences, but to me, the fact that I know what my trip is, in its entirety, is a huge QOL improvement. That's right- weeks in advance, I already know when I need to be at the airport, when the flight leaves, where its going, when it lands, how much time on the ground, when I will leave again, and when I will be done for the day, and what hotel I will be staying in. There is no guessing about when people will show up, and where I will be going next . . .AND, if you don't like the schedule you got, you can bid to trade pretty easily.

Pay wise? Well, at my airline, figure 1080 hours times the hourly rate of pay, and that will give you a pretty close approximation.

Good Luck. Letus know what you decide.

 

[Flopgut]

Not that there is anything particulirly wrong with Ty's post, and I don't know a lot about NJA, but I know a lot about CAL. DAL guy has it right IMHO. Our airlines are very similiar, I have 10 years at CAL and I'm still licking the cats butt! And I will be, for a long time, it is just the nature of the seniority makeup at a large, international legacy. The bottom is an abyss and it takes a long time to move up.

For instance, I don't bid for days off. I bid for every second of every 24 hr. period of my life. Its not a matter of if I'm working today (Christmas), the question is what time do I go to work. I work every weekend. EVERY weekend. Comparing that with what I know about NJA, it looks like your schedule isn't a lot different from what someone much senior, or way junior to you gets. It takes about 25 years to have a summer vacation here. If you don't want to live in CLE, IAH, EWR or GUM (GUAM) your a commuter. The last commute to work of your career will be no better than the first. Commuting just sucks. Don't you NJA pilots get to live anywhere, and they take you to work?

I wouldn't give up your deal at NJA.

*EDIT: Don't you all have free health care including LOL, dental, and vision? (who the heck has that these days?), enormous payraise with backpay? Large 401K match, crewmeals, Hilton pts/airline miles and stuff like that? Shoot, I'm not sure that you don't already have a better deal now with your 5 years at NJA than I have with 10 years at CAL!

 

[jbDC9]

I work every weekend. EVERY weekend. Comparing that with what I know about NJA, it looks like your schedule isn't a lot different from what someone much senior, or way junior to you gets. It takes about 25 years to have a summer vacation here. If you don't want to live in CLE, IAH, EWR or GUM (GUAM) your a commuter. The last commute to work of your career will be no better than the first. Commuting just sucks.

So which seat/base are you in? I'm just curious since I'm at 8 yrs as a 737 FO in IAH and have a purty good schedule. I can get weekends off, 3 day trips mostly, and I have a week of vacation this summer during Oshkosh. I live in the Houston area, so no commuting. You're right, commuting sucks! From my point of view though, saying 25 yrs to hold a summer vacation bid is stretching it a bit...

I could hold a 737 CA seat in EWR... I'd have 38 guys below me; amazingly enough the bottom EWR CA is 294 numbers junior. But, why would I want to commute to EWR to be abused on reserve for the next who knows how many years with only 12 days off a month, and most of those days wasted commuting back and forth? No thanks, I don't need a 4th stripe that bad.

 

[kaisersose]

So which seat/base are you in? I'm just curious since I'm at 8 yrs as a 737 FO in IAH and have a purty good schedule. I can get weekends off, 3 day trips mostly, and I have a week of vacation this summer during Oshkosh. I live in the Houston area, so no commuting. You're right, commuting sucks! From my point of view though, saying 25 yrs to hold a summer vacation bid is stretching it a bit...

I could hold a 737 CA seat in EWR... I'd have 38 guys below me; amazingly enough the bottom EWR CA is 294 numbers junior. But, why would I want to commute to EWR to be abused on reserve for the next who knows how many years with only 12 days off a month, and most of those days wasted commuting back and forth? No thanks, I don't need a 4th stripe that bad.

Beat me to it. I hold weekends off and pretty much can hold any week in the summer except maybe 7/4. I am changing to ewr 777fo in 06 and the guy just junior to me up there held 18 days off in Jan. I also have only 8 yrs.

This guy either premature captainated, failed bidding 101, or is on crack.

put the pipe down and go apply at nja.

 

[Flopgut]

Hold on, I just bid out of an artificially senior position, was thinking this would help my vacation bidding plight, and it did not! Yes, 25 years was a bit off (I had a particuliar person in mind there) but, for a IAH Captain it does seem to take 20-22 years for the summer vacation? Right? Or am I worse bidder than I thought? And those EWR 777 lines don't have that much time off at our seniority do they? I've looked at them but really want a staffing % that will get me a better vacation. There is no bidding program out there for vacations, are there?

I'm going to have to investigate the vacation bidding thing because I bid everything after 7/4 and got nothing! I will admit, I am too lazy to go through and see what everybody else gets.

 

[CAL EWR B737]

My two cents:

My buddy who I sponsored came from one of the major fractionals. He has commented to me many times how there was NO way he could have flown the rest of his career (40 now) at a fractional. The job would have taken to much out of him. My friend is a very hard worker and received many accolades for his excellent customer service. The workload and quality of life here at CAL in his opinion is far easier and better then the fractional he left. He told me the actual quality of life at at work is significantly better at CAL than the fractionals. You guys really work very hard while at work! He left as a senior captain and was also a training captain. His former company just gave their pilots a big raise due to the NJet contract, however he still would rather be at CAL.

I've read a lot of negative comments RE: CAL over the last few days. No one can predict the future. While there certainly is a chance CAL could be a bad place to be in the future (or out of business all together), I and many others believe there is a good chance things could be descent to possibly great here in a few years. I think there quite a few on this board who dislike CAL or maybe have an ax to grind or are just plain jealous of those of us at CAL.

My friend was off reserve in December on the B737 in Newark and was hired in June. He just traded his line today to hold 17 days off. Not to bad as a junior line holder just off reserve. As far as pay our average line holder is paid between 1050 and 1200 pay hours per year. I was paid 1170 hours this year and flew about 80% in the 737/800 (mid body pay). I averaged about 15 days off per month. I'm at the 12 year B737 CA pay scale, someone posted it on this thread so you do the math. I hope now that we have regained our union, with a little luck our company and industry has bottomed out we can expect the momentum to swing back in our direction. I don't think it's out of the question to believe we may get substantial pay increases and QOL increases in our next contract.

Any way congratulations and hope to see you on the line.

 

[Heavy Set]

My $0.02:

The grass is not always greener... I'd stay at NJA. Pre-TA I would have said go to CO immediately. At NJA, you have great aircraft (many types like the Sovereign or F2000Easy which are more advanced than anything you will find at CO beyond the 777), unlimited variety of destinations (not likely that you will become as jaded as quickly), two weeks off per month and $100K+ going forward. NJA is also the industry leader (not in a weak financial condition with declining market share like Flight Options).

No doubt CO is a great carrier, but we all know industry consolidation is coming. That being said, a merger between CO and another major (maybe UAL) is likely. If that happens, all bets are off in terms of job security for the junior pilots. The fact that CO does not provide benefits for the first 6 months is pretty lame too - that surprised me. Having spoken with many CO pilots, however, most are very happy with the company - not many negative comments.

If this were a decision between NJA and Fedex or UPS, I'd say go with the others as long as you have 20 years to go. Fedex and UPS are very different from the legacy airlines and consolidation (with its negative impacts on pilot groups) is not likely. Plus, Fedex and UPS pay very well relative to the airlines.

I'd stay at NJA and not look back. Bigger (aircraft) doesn't mean better. Let us know which path you choose - both paths are good paths. Good luck!