Another PFT.....WTF!!!

[The_Russian]

Watch out! This guy hates GIA and PCL guys! He might have to hurt our feelings.

Please remember that I am not defending PFT. I am very much against it. The GIA FO program is not PFT. These guys do not take jobs away from anyone. Most of you dont understand because you dont know sh!t about Gulfstream.

 

[User546]

WTF do hours have to do with it. When you blame things on the FO, it is because of your lack of confidence as a CPT. I hate flying with guys who think like you do.

What about a 700 hour FO fumbling thru trying to interpret taxi diagrams and instructions at La Guardia have to do with the confidence of the CPT? In a dual crew enviroment, one taxi's the airplane, while the other reads the instructions and keeps track where your at on the diagram. I know plenty of low time pilots that it's a challenge for them to do that. Why would a Captain want to have to babysit the FO and taxi the airplane at the same time in an extremely busy airport like LGA or ORD? That's all he's saying.

BEGINING RANT....

Now Russian, we've always co-existed on this board, and I've kept my mouth shut many times, but I'm going to say something now. Your an admitted ex-Gulfstream student, that is PFT thru and thru, and you are the type of person that every professional pilot on this board talks bad about.

You are extremly unprofessional in your responses, you have an extremely childish mentality, and you've got a lot of pinned up anger you need to get rid of. Now whether your upset and defenseful because you are/were a GIA pilot, I can't say, and frankly I don't care. But I've always gotten the feeling that you have spent a lot of time in your short career defending yourself and your decisions to other people, and thats why you go off the broom handle everytime someone says anything negative about GIA.

Now I'm not saying all of this to start a flame-war or to get into a p1ssing match, but I think you need to just step back and take a look at things from other peoples perspective, and see where we're all coming from. Just because you bought a job in the right sight does not mean that you are a well seasoned veteran of the flying industry, and you sitting in the rigth-seat for someone is worth your weight in gold.

But I digress now, and I hope you take it all for what its worth, and be a little more open-minded from now on.

 

[Dizel8]

"You think the public will even understand your idiodic jealousy of GAA's program?":

Jealousy WTF, I sincerely doubt anyone is jealous of you, your position or for that matter, any position at GAA.

Make sure you highlight your working experience at GAA on your resume, I am sure it will be regarded highly.

Honestly though, thanks for the laugh, I mean, jealousy and GAA in the same sentence, good one!

 

[The_Russian]

User,

I do see myself as a very open minded person. I used to be on your side of the fence. Making fun of all the little GAA students. It was when these students became my friends also that I learned about what it is all about. And I also learned that I was misjudging them, as the people on this board do. The members of this board also get very offensive in their posts. Is it unprofessional of me to return fire every once in a while? No, it isn't. Becasue I am defending my friends and myself now. I am defending them from persecution that they and I do not deserve. We don't buy our jobs. We earn them. I recieved a permanent job with the airline because I was an instuctor for them prior to doing the FO program. The GAA students that go to PCL have to interveiw like any other PCL pilot. None of our pilots are taking jobs from other pilots because FO's like me fly 90% of the flying the airline has. Getting paid union wages and benifits better than most other 1900 operators.

Now, GIA has a PFT Captain program and there are some people in it. IBT747 and the pilot group including myself is out there doing what it takes to stop this program. The Captain program IS buying a job (PFT/PFJ). Please trust me that this will not last. They are taking jobs, FO program grads are not.

Thank you for your objective response User. If it means anything, I value your opinion and calm manner of presenting it.

 

[PCL_128]

Russian, please explain how the FO program isn't PFT but the Captain program is. I don't see the difference. Both are PFT and the union on the property should be working to get it stopped.

 

[Dizel8]

Gotta love that the company is run by a scab, but the teamsters are looking into it. Yeah, like he would honour their wishes. Besides, I am sure dangling that glorious Brasilia in front of our commie friend would be all that is needed. I doubt he has the morale fiber to resist such an awesome opportunity.


Come on DOWN, here is what you get:
examination
250 hrs Flying Line As Part-121 Paid First Officer At GIA In Beech 1900D

522 Total Hours Of Training Including 318 Hours OF Turboprop Flight Training

First Officer Program Price $29,684*

*After receiving $2,000 in flight pay, program cost is just $27,684.

·All training hours are based on averages while the actual amount of training is based on individual proficiency.

·Prior flight experience is required including commercial, instrument, and multi-engine rating.

·The cost for all materials and check rides is included in the overall program.

·Program prices do not include room & board and the required uniforms

·Applicable prices and costs for most other services are listed in the following pages of this brochure.

·The actual number of weeks it will take to complete ground school and flight training will vary according to the individual's schedule and proficiency

·The overall program is expected to take approximately seven months to complete.

COURSE REQUIREMENTS

First Officer candidates must be 18 years of age, hold FAA Commercial and Instrument certificates with a Multi-engine rating, a valid passport, and a first class medical certificate. The candidate will be required to demonstrate pilot proficiency and aeronautical knowledge via a sim eval and a written exam.

 

[Dizel8]

Anyway Russian, why you are upset at them PFT/PFJ'ing Captains is beyond me, but perhaps you are finally getting the point!

 

[mike51135]

Pft

The GAA students that go to PCL have to interveiw like any other PCL pilot.

That may be true, but when I interviewed along with 9 other "non-GAA" pilots, only 4 out of us 10 got the job. When I was in training, HR went to Florida and interviewed 50 GAA people and all but 1 got the job.

Does that sound fair to anyone?

 

[The_Russian]

That may be true, but when I interviewed along with 9 other "non-GAA" pilots, only 4 out of us 10 got the job. When I was in training, HR went to Florida and interviewed 50 GAA people and all but 1 got the job.

Does that sound fair to anyone?

See, now thats what I am talking about. "Fairness". Give me a break. Life isn't fair. PCL hires those most qualified. GAA students have a pass rate with PCL of 98%. PCL also communicates directly with GAA to get what they want out of the GAA pilots.

Russian, please explain how the FO program isn't PFT but the Captain program is. I don't see the difference. Both are PFT and the union on the property should be working to get it stopped.

Because the FO program is about time and experience building. The students fill open time and reserve time and so not to take a seat from a permanent hire pilot. The Captain Program IS buying a job straight out. Then on top of that, they replace permanent hire pilots by working for 8 dollars an hour and no benifits. Essentially "extending" the FO program and knocking people out of jobs, a lot of people. FO program students do not do that. When I call in sick, then they fly. I hope that helps to clear things up.

 

[SEFlyer]

Because the FO program is about time and experience building. The students fill open time and reserve time and so not to take a seat from a permanent hire pilot.

At any other airline, these open time and reserve time are given to hired pilots. The FO is ABSOLUTELY taking a job away from another pilot. If there were no PFT "time builders" as you call them, the company would not be able to operate without hiring additional FOs to cover reserve, open time, vacations, sick calls, FMLAs, etc.

GIA program is and always will be a PFT. The only downside is your paying for training, taking a job away from someone else, and then you don't even get to keep the job. That has to be the worst deal I have ever seen.

 

[The_Russian]

The only downside is your paying for training, taking a job away from someone else, and then you don't even get to keep the job.

These pilots that fill these positions would need a job in the workfoce anyway. As a CFI, banner pilot, or even airline/charter pilot. So the only thing they are doing is making other jobs more abundant. Our airline feeds its pilot group from the street and GAA. That is how it is and how its going to be. Get used to it. GIA also gives jobs to pilots who are on furlough, allowing families to eat dinner every night.

The FO is ABSOLUTELY taking a job away from another pilot.

Yes, he or she is taking THEIR job.

Why do you act like someone is stealing from you when they aren't? Before you criticize GIA or GAA, take a good look at yourself and the industry you are in. Maybe your employer isn't treating you so fairly.

 

[SEFlyer]

Yes, he or she is taking THEIR job.

Why do you act like someone is stealing from you when they aren't? Before you criticize GIA or GAA, take a good look at yourself and the industry you are in. Maybe your employer isn't treating you so fairly.

To the tune of nearly 30,000 big ones. If the FO has 30,000 bucks to spend on a $9/hour job, then he/she definitely has plenty of money to put food on their families table.

I act like someone is stealing from me, because in a sense they are. When GIA doesn't have to pay labor wages OR training wages, it allows them to undercut other airlines for flying, which takes away from REAL jobs where people actually make a little bit of money (not just 9k a year -- well, less the 30k given to the company upfront).

Rationalize it all you want. GIA is worse than PFT. At least if someone pays solely for their training, most companies will pay them an okay wage. But for someone to PFT and then work for 9 or 8 bucks an hour. That's rediculous.

 

[Dizel8]

Well, normally at airlines, open time and sick calls are handled by reserves who get paid at regular wages, not some PFT'r who gets $9 an hour.

Still, I love how you are upset with the CA PFT/PFJ, after all, that keeps the FO seat open for you and your PFT friends or perhaps you can go take one of the many other jobs it opens up like banner towing, flight instructing.

"Please remember that I am not defending PFT. I am very much against it. The GIA FO program is not PFT."

No, then what the heck is it?

Oh, you can rationalize and explain etc., just like the scabs did, but it will follow you for a long time to come. Because THAT is how it is going to be!

 

[cforst513]

$4,000 doesn't sound that bad. not that i would ever do PFT. but what's gulfstream charging nowadays? and phoenix east aviation? all i remember with them is that stupid picture of a KingAir on the beach. god.

 

[PropsR4Boats]

What do you have to say for COMAIR (Delta) Connection guys, its the same thing am I wrong?

I don't understand the Russian. He is mad at others for commiting the same crime he is guilty of. Sounds like your typical Communist Russian.

 

[cforst513]

i don't look at comair as PFT... it's just another big-name pilot factory. you are not buying a job when you pay to train at comair. the only thing you get paid for at comair is being a CFI, whereas with PFT they pay you like $8/hr to be a FO on a beech 1900 or something. i dunno if you want to call their "guaranteed job interview" pay for training or not, but DCA is just another GROSSLY overpriced flight school.

 

[The_Russian]

Look guys,

There is a lot of difference between buying some time in the right seat of a 121 B1900, and buying your job. The Captain PFJ program is outright buying employment. Much like other past regional PFT/PFJ jobs (CMR, Colgan, Etc....). When you sign on the line for the FO program, it is not in writing, nor implied that you have bought a job. There is no intent by the student to have a job. The training experiance is given with the intent of the student going to another regional. That is why the FO program is not considered PFJ/PFT, because you are not buying a job that you could possibly stay at as long as you want. If you are still confused, then it is only because you don't understand how we do things down here at GIA/GAA. If you are angry at us, then you obviously need to be more open minded about life, happiness, and your financial strains.

 

[PropsR4Boats]

So Russi, how long are you willing to pay for a little 121 flight time. How long do you think it'll be before Delta, AMR, etc. start asking Russi and the like to pay for a little 121 right seat time. You think the Tab express/Pan Am experiencee would pay of. I suppose your resonse to this will be...You don't care for the money you just want to fly cool airplanes. In that case I respond...crawl back up that Soviet Sh!t hole you were pulled out of and die. I want to, like you said earlier, feed my family.
Later

 

[The_Russian]

Can you read, speak, and understand the English language? It doesn't appear from your post that you can. That rant made absolutely no sense whatsoever. And for the one question that is legable:

I am not willing to pay for any more 121 time. 250 hours was enough. Now I have a job flying and I get paid for it.

Deciphered another one......hold on, here it goes...

No I don't want to "fly cool airplanes". The best flying I ever did was instructing. This airline BS just pays the bills. There is no difference to me between a 767 and a 1900 when it comes to "quality of flight". It's all the same boring straight and level.

I did what it took to get qualified for regional flying when the cards were down. It's too bad I took ahold of my career advancement. Sorry to ruin your day, obviously. You know nothing about me or GIA.

Please, keep your day job. Your writing skills suck pretty bad.

 

[s3jetman]

Hey crazy russian shut up you piece of Sh!t!!!

Just wanted to say hello,

And PCL where are you at now and how are things going?

 

[wheelsup]

There is a lot of difference between buying some time in the right seat of a 121 B1900, and buying your job. The Captain PFJ program is outright buying employment. Much like other past regional PFT/PFJ jobs (CMR, Colgan, Etc....). When you sign on the line for the FO program, it is not in writing, nor implied that you have bought a job. There is no intent by the student to have a job. The training experiance is given with the intent of the student going to another regional. That is why the FO program is not considered PFJ/PFT, because you are not buying a job that you could possibly stay at as long as you want.

You're trying to argue that because the student knows "up-front" that he/she is only getting 250 hours out of the deal, it's not buying a job. I can see that - HOWEVER - if you're getting a paycheck, you're working. Working implies that its a job. So, you plunked down $30k for 250 hours of "training"...and getting paid for it. How is that not a job?!? Call it what you want - said student is taking the place of an F/O that would normally be (at most "normal" airlines) be hired and trained on the company dime, and then paid a guranentee no matter what they're doing (flying or not). Also, if that student wasn't present in the aircraft, the aircraft would not be going on the flight - you're required to be there by law. If you and all the other gulfstreams hadn't PAID to be there - the company would've hired, trained, and paid F/O's to be there - hence, you're taking a job away. You argue that because you take the "open slots", you're not taking a job away. I ask you this - what would happen if you were not there? A paid F/O would take the flight. Again, taking a job away as the company doesn't have to hire as many F/O's and put them on reserve.

A buddy of mine just did the PFT deal at gulfstream. I lost all respect for him when he told me that. He then had the balls to try and convince me to do it! Oh, and he's upgrading to captain (your personal version of PFT).

I wonder if the flying public knew there was someone up front that was paying to be there. I bet Gulfstream's rep would go out the window....

~wheelsup

 

[PBRstreetgang]

If it doesn't work the first time, throw more money into it, and try again.

Sounds like the aviation industry allright, throw money at a losing concept.
Whats worse there will be some stupid pilot wannabe who will throw some hard-borrowed(creditcard?) money at them to encourage this kind of behavior over and over again.
PBR

 

[PropsR4Boats]

Cool Dog pic PBR.

My point Russian…uh…Aviator guy. Don’t you think that you could have scored just as good of a job without paying 30g’s, or what ever the going rate at GIA . For 30 G’s you could have gotten your CFI MEI & done that for a while. If you needed, buy a couple hours in a twin to get checked out as an instructor. You could’ve done that for a small fraction of 30g’s. Then try to get on with an Airline. If you couldn’t get on with the airline, go be a Freight Dogg for 6 mo to a year. That would’ve been lots of valuable time flying in all kinds of WX & traffic. Plus you would be qualified and respected as a Freight Dogg, Pro Pilot, that will get you a good job. We all hope you get the point Russian, even though it’s to late for you. At least you could admit your mistake to other youngsters trying to do what you did. If you haven’t seen this yet, look (listen closely). The guys posting letters of hate aimed at you, are the guys that do the hiring for the next gig you want. See? We would not hire you; your experience is not whole, not respectable, and downright irresponsible.

Would you hire an architect to build your house that just paid 30g’s for a piece of paper? No, you would hire the guy that had a very long resume, with a performance history showing competence in the subject.

 

[training]

There is a lot of difference between buying some time in the right seat of a 121 B1900, and buying your job. The Captain PFJ program is outright buying employment. Much like other past regional PFT/PFJ jobs (CMR, Colgan, Etc....). When you sign on the line for the FO program, it is not in writing, nor implied that you have bought a job. There is no intent by the student to have a job. The training experiance is given with the intent of the student going to another regional. That is why the FO program is not considered PFJ/PFT, because you are not buying a job that you could possibly stay at as long as you want. If you are still confused, then it is only because you don't understand how we do things down here at GIA/GAA. If you are angry at us, then you obviously need to be more open minded about life, happiness, and your financial strains.

Dude, Russian, do you understand how stupid you look right now. You just dont get it. You are an absolute disgrace to the aviation industry and to your family.

 

[Flechas]

Hey, but maybe the training is so fun, it doesn't matter if you have to buy your job!

 

[training]

Hey, but maybe the training is so fun, it doesn't matter if you have to buy your job!

My entire career was paid for by my mom.

 

[PropsR4Boats]

What career you only have 500 hrs? Some places wouldn't hire that kinda time to instruct!

 

[training]

What career you only have 500 hrs? Some places wouldn't hire that kinda time to instruct!

My career has eclipsed yours at 504 hours. My training was very intense and i will be upgrading to captain soon for a well known regional airline.

 

[Flechas]

My career has eclipsed yours at 504 hours. My training was very intense and i will be upgrading to captain soon for a well known regional airline.

Hahaha you keep getting better don't you?
Where was your training so intense Mr. Soon to be Captain?

 

[PropsR4Boats]

Uh sorry. We shall see. What well Known Regional Airline may I ask? Perhaps instead of cutting in on conversations and starting rumors you should look over those FARs. You may have gone over this in your intense training. A Captain for a 121/135 operator in an aircraft requiring a type (jet/+12500lb) must have an ATP certificate. Looks like your ah...994 hours away from that. How long before you get that many more radio tuning hours.