Another one bites the dust...

[rajflyboy]

There is no pension at the fractionals. Just the good old 401K account. Not bad if you have the spare cash to use it and you invest wisely.

In the end scheduled 121 flying is still better than flying with the fractionals. The fractionals jobs appear to have security and the pilots are happy to have work and get the pay check for now. If the airline business corrects itself and we see big time hiring again I would think you will see plenty of movement out of the fractionals and back into the 121 industry.

 

[Voice Of Reason]

There is no pension at the fractionals. Just the good old 401K account. Not bad if you have the spare cash to use it and you invest wisely.

In the end scheduled 121 flying is still better than flying with the fractionals. The fractionals jobs appear to have security and the pilots are happy to have work and get the pay check for now. If the airline business corrects itself and we see big time hiring again I would think you will see plenty of movement out of the fractionals and back into the 121 industry.

As I said you are more than free to spend your life chasing the fabled carrot, but it's over. You will likely see 401K being the norm everywhere...give it a little time...The "legacies" are already setting the bar lower in that respect, and the rest will likely follow, just because they can and it's been done. The casual airline traveller has had enough of the chaos and doesn't want to pay more than ten bucks for a fare. The low cost carriers didn't have such a presence before as they do now, so any pipe dreams of things going back to they way it was as far as "THE Airlines" is nothing more than just that. Try to see reality for just a minute or you will spend your life feeling as if the grass is always greener elsewhere...That's a pretty miserable existence...

I also find it sad to hear so many pilots (furloughs in particular) categorize themselves as "former" this or "former" that...as if their whole identity is wrapped up in what "used to be." It's just as bad to hear all of the people that feel like their whole identity is to be destined for something that just isn't realistic anymore. Everyone should want to better themselves...but geezsh when it becomes a personal hell and sense of identity it is sad.

 

[Fracster]

Lets not kid ourselves. NJA, Flex, Options are all crap jobs. The only people who make these career jobs are people who cant, for whatever reason, go anywhere else.
Unfortunately, those people who cant or havent been anywhere else are the ones running the show. Case in point, look at the NJA MEC who negotiated the contract. 5 guys whos careers consisted of NJA only. Not all that bad in itself but the POS TA was an example of their abilities and mentality.

I personaly wouldnt compare a Frac management to an airline management. They both suck but independently different. I do think the Frac managements are trying to be pro-active. NJA is an example of that. Is it working, will it work, can it work...who knows.

I know at NJA as soon as they can remove the majority of the people in descision making positions without any outside aviation experience then we will be better off.
Unlike an airline, the true Frac model has not been established. It continues to evolve everyday. For example, the NJA training mentality is still "this is how we have always done it". That may work in a proven system like the airlines but it doesnt work here.
Still, the pay sucks, the job sucks, the retirement sucks and the benefits are average.
The fracs are equivalent to a regional airline. Thats it and nothing more, PERIOD!
We have some benefits that are better than theirs and they have some better than us.
People still keep coming to NJA with the hopes it will turn out to be as advertised. Those of us here are still waiting but ready to bolt should a good oportunity arise.
Anyone who asks me whether or not they should apply here, well, I get their background and explain to them what life is like and let them make the descision.
Most of us are here because we had no other choice, furlough for example, or thought it was something it wasnt, not yet atleast.
For those of us still here we have to be hopeful. What choice do we have.
I'd love to go to Southwest but I dont have 10 grand to bet with.

and most of the time I am on call,

Being on call isnt so bad if the job is good and the owner/company is descent. You still make more moeny, work less and have a better quality of life.

 

[Voice Of Reason]

Lets not kid ourselves. NJA, Flex, Options are all crap jobs. The only people who make these career jobs are people who cant, for whatever reason, go anywhere else. If you think this is the case, that's truly sad.
Still, the pay sucks, the job sucks, the retirement sucks and the benefits are average.
The fracs are equivalent to a regional airline. Thats it and nothing more, PERIOD!
We have some benefits that are better than theirs and they have some better than us. Someone's seriously smoking something (or has never worked at a regional). Been there, done that, and not at ALL comparable.
People still keep coming to NJA with the hopes it will turn out to be as advertised. Those of us here are still waiting but ready to bolt should a good oportunity arise.

Sorry NetJets is so awful..I can't speak of that particular company by experience, but it sounds like you've got it rough there. Fortunately, while other fracs would like more pay, it isn't as bad as what it sounds like you are going through at NetJets. You have my pity, I guess, if that is what you are searching for. I can think of worse problems in this world right now, so I tend to avoid the entitlement outlook. We have MUCH to be thankful for in this priveleged country...and so many options to move on to better & happier things, instead of living in a "woe is me" selfish personal purgatory... I'll bet a lot of people in this world right now wish they had such options to change their unhappy lives.

 

[On Your Six]

Pilots tend to have a lot of time on their hands to b!tch about their jobs... In the end, no job is perfect - otherwise it would be called "fun" instead of a job. People who go the fractional route should know about the work schedule as well as the low salaries before signing on - that should be well understood.

However, if you are looking for a place that provides:

1. Nice jet equipment (e.g., Citation X, Sovereign or CL300)
2. Interesting variety (e.g., more than just the airline hub routes)
3. A reasonable schedule once you can hold it (e.g., 7/7)
4. The ability to live in a variety of locations (excluding Flexjet which is limited to 3-4 domiciles)

Then, maybe the fractionals could be the place for you so long as you don't expect the big bucks...

Again, everyone seems to have an ENTITLEMENT mentality in this business... You expect this and you expect that... Well, things have changed. You shouldn't expect the big bucks anyway in this business unless you fly for FEDEX on the MD-11.

I don't work for the fractionals but I have many friends who do. Some like it and some don't. If you are flying a Citation X on a 7/7 schedule and you are super depressed because you ain't earning FEDEX MD-11 wages, well maybe you should wake up and smell the coffee - wages/benefits are falling and won't be much better elsewhere - even JetBlue will pay EMB-190 pilots less than Mesa pilots....

 

[Voice Of Reason]

Pilots tend to have a lot of time on their hands to b!tch about their jobs... In the end, no job is perfect - otherwise it would be called "fun" instead of a job. People who go the fractional route should know about the work schedule as well as the low salaries before signing on - that should be well understood.

Again, everyone seems to have an ENTITLEMENT mentality in this business... You expect this and you expect that... Well, things have changed. You shouldn't expect the big bucks anyway in this business unless you fly for FEDEX on the MD-11.

If you are flying a Citation X on a 7/7 schedule and you are super depressed because you ain't earning FEDEX MD-11 wages, well maybe you should wake up and smell the coffee - wages/benefits are falling and won't be much better elsewhere - even JetBlue will pay EMB-190 pilots less than Mesa pilots....

Another Voice of Reason, and contented soul! Life could be MUCH worse...

 

[Grizz]

...Then, maybe the fractionals could be the place for you so long as you don't expect the big bucks...

Again, everyone seems to have an ENTITLEMENT mentality in this business... You expect this and you expect that... Well, things have changed. You shouldn't expect the big bucks anyway in this business unless you fly for FEDEX on the MD-11.

All I've gotta say is thank God you're not part of our voting block.

I know lots of pilots at NetJets that aren't necessarily looking for "the big bucks." What they are looking for is a salary commensurate with the profession they are in. They fly the world's richest people in corporate jets and expect to be paid a professional salary.

Folks like yourself drive this industry into the crap heap. "Hey, I'm flying a pretty new jet and staying in a decent hotel...who needs any pay for this?" If you weren't so pathetic you'd almost be funny.

 

[Dep676]

These guys must have gotten to the "Kool-Aid" party before someone could stop them.

Yeah I don't see where anyone wants to be paid the big bucks. I think we all want to paid fairly. By that I mean not qualify for government cheese.

 

[dime line]

on your six.......your retired from the millitary right?

 

[Voice Of Reason]

These guys must have gotten to the "Kool-Aid" party before someone could stop them.

Yeah I don't see where anyone wants to be paid the big bucks. I think we all want to paid fairly. By that I mean not qualify for government cheese.

No, just the "How can I feel sorry for myself as a pilot with all the real problems happing in the world right now" party. NO ONE is saying what you are insinuating, and if you had READ my posts, rather than just make assumptions out of your narcissitic, entitled, conclusion jumping manner, you would have seen what the point is. YES, by all means, go for the gold...try to increase your pay...but LOSE the highly unattractive entitlement mentality, and the life of MISERY that you are allowing yourself to lead. If you cannot POSSIBLY find any reason to carry yourself in a better way, because the misery is so consuming...then it is time to LEAVE your company (and/or the industry), and do something meaningful with your lives. This message board reminds me a of crew room full of pilots...so miserable, and it INFECTS the WHOLE industry. Can you work for better pay without being so RADICALLY unhappy? RADICAL unhappiness warrants a change...you are NOT "stuck" where you are, and if it was TRULY as imminently "doom and gloom" as you are making it to be, I have to question your sanity as to why you are still there.
Take a sabbatical, get to Phuket and HELP some people TRULY in need, and get a reality check on this life of yours.

 

[learflyer]

on your six.......your retired from the millitary right?

Yep, he probably is. I love those guys who just do this for fun or beer money, or as a "hobby". 16 days away from home is fun? Well, your bringing down the salaries of those of us who HAVE to do this.

 

[Voice Of Reason]

16 days away from home is fun? Well, your bringing down the salaries of those of us who HAVE to do this.

 

[Grizz]

Hey,

I'm retired military. The difference is that I don't figure my retirement money into what I should be making at another job. My retirement is money I earned but didn't get paid during those 20 years. NetJets should still pay me a professional salary regardless of my retirement from Uncle Sam's flying club.

 

[dime line]

Griz

I'm glad to hear that.your retirement check dosen't distort your civillian thoughts of paychecks. Congrats on your retirement. I'm just sick of hearing retired guys say "the pay is just fine" "I'm glad Martha is paying my paycheck" "you make enough", that last one was from a retired Col. who brags about his 2nd beach house.

Mean while my co captain has a wife and a kid and makes less than our large cabin flight attendants, which if i'm mistaken don't even go to flight attendant school.

 

[JimNtexas]

Hey,

I'm retired military. The difference is that I don't figure my retirement money into what I should be making at another job. My retirement is money I earned but didn't get paid during those 20 years. NetJets should still pay me a professional salary regardless of my retirement from Uncle Sam's flying club.

ABSO-BLANKING-LUTLY!!!!!!!!!!!

 

[Dep676]

No, just the "How can I feel sorry for myself as a pilot with all the real problems happing in the world right now" party. NO ONE is saying what you are insinuating, and if you had READ my posts, rather than just make assumptions out of your narcissitic, entitled, conclusion jumping manner, you would have seen what the point is. YES, by all means, go for the gold...try to increase your pay...but LOSE the highly unattractive entitlement mentality, and the life of MISERY that you are allowing yourself to lead. If you cannot POSSIBLY find any reason to carry yourself in a better way, because the misery is so consuming...then it is time to LEAVE your company (and/or the industry), and do something meaningful with your lives. This message board reminds me a of crew room full of pilots...so miserable, and it INFECTS the WHOLE industry. Can you work for better pay without being so RADICALLY unhappy? RADICAL unhappiness warrants a change...you are NOT "stuck" where you are, and if it was TRULY as imminently "doom and gloom" as you are making it to be, I have to question your sanity as to why you are still there.
Take a sabbatical, get to Phuket and HELP some people TRULY in need, and get a reality check on this life of yours.

Sir put down the Kool-Aid and step away. I do not recall anywhere in this thread me posting how bad it is at my current company. Also for your knowledge. I am looking at getting out of the dead end company this thread was originally started about.

Why do you think it is so bad to try and improve things while we are still here? Do you even work at any of the fractionals? If so you must have an IV with a Kool-Aid drip. Your way of thinking is what is keeping any of the fractionals of improving pay or QOL for the pilots. In case you missed the part of my post and others that there are families still qualifing for government aid that work at these fractionals. Have you seen what the owners are paying to fly around in these aircraft? The millions they are paying are sure not going in the pilots pockets.

 

[Dep676]

Dep676, better check your black berry. Things are changing in CGF. Next is domicile. Hope the XP type is worth something where you are.

I know just the message this morning. Also why do you think I got my type in the XP????????????? I didn't say things were rosy either. I had a motive for going to the XP long before I went to it. Matter of fact buying resume paper and stamps today.

 

[On Your Six]

All I've gotta say is thank God you're not part of our voting block.

I know lots of pilots at NetJets that aren't necessarily looking for "the big bucks." What they are looking for is a salary commensurate with the profession they are in. They fly the world's richest people in corporate jets and expect to be paid a professional salary.

Folks like yourself drive this industry into the crap heap. "Hey, I'm flying a pretty new jet and staying in a decent hotel...who needs any pay for this?" If you weren't so pathetic you'd almost be funny.

Ooooh no, there goes Grizz with his holier-than-thou attitude... I never said that fractional pilots shouldn't pursue a pay raise... Everyone deserves pay increases and to be paid "what they're worth." Warren Buffet has a ton of money and the Netjets guys deserve a big raise - no argument there. I merely suggested that people who are looking to enter the fractional business should enter with their eyes open - the schedule and pay are most likely sub-par when compared with some airline jobs. People who are interested in working for a fractional should be aware of the big pay differences - hopefully the gap will start to close sooner than later.

I was also attempting to point out that not every fractional pilot views pay as the primary determinent of their happiness - aircraft types, schedule and route variety matter to some pilots more than others. Of course pay rates need to increase - especially the starting pay which is abysmal... I never stated otherwise. Let me guess, you are a glass half-empty kinda guy and a lot of fun to fly with...

 

[Driver]

I dont come to this board (or any board) very often... because they're all the same... Someone starts with a good question or coment.. then the helpful replys (some with knowledge some without)... next comes the comlaining and finally the gloves come off. Gilligan's Island wasn't that predictable.

I'm off and up out.

 

[Fracster]

I'm off and up out.

Straight from the Delta wav file. Funniest dang thing I ever heard.