Another one bites the dust...

[flyr4hire]

I've had enough. Was fun while it lasted, but is becoming less so with every tour, so I'm calling it quits. No more fractional flying, no more Flight Options for me. Three years is enough, I have flown my last tour. Any of you guys who have left FLOPS recently, could you please PM me so I know what stuff to start boxing up to return to CGF after I formally resign... don't want that last pay check hung up for ANY reason... also want to anticipate any "games" the management may be playing these days with outstanding reserve (sick) and vacation balances. Mixed feelings about leaving as I am gonna really miss the vast majority of the guys I've had the pleasure of flying with. Don't think I'll look back on my decision to leave given the current trends, however, its just a darned shame that its come to this for me.

 

[KSUPILOT]

so what you going to do now? I am debating on going to Flight Options or Swift? Which on would you take if you could look back? I wish you the best of luck. What kind of BS are you putting up with that is making you leave?

 

[waveoff]

flyr4hire...

Take me with you!!!

 

[apache]

Congrats!

I left Flops a little while ago after seeing that staying was not ever going to provide me with a viable career. After 15 plus years in the pointy end of aviation, I'm calling it quits.

I returned my uniform, coats, and company manuals to Bob Sullivan via UPS. I took a picture of the contents of the box just in case....... I also emailed JS, PM, and Bob Sullivan a note that said that I was complying with the company manual in returning the items and that I would be expecting all that was due me to be paid promptly. After SEVERAL weeks, I called Bob Sullivan to inquire whether he had received the items and he was polite enough but claimed not to have received the items. I asked him if he knew a certain person's name because that was the name that had signed for the package with UPS. I received all pay except for vacation pay a couple of days after that. I suggest you hang on to take vacation before you leave if you can.

Good luck to you. There really is a life after aviation. The shame of it is that Flops could have been a nice place if it weren't for management. But then again, most companies would be also.

 

[apache]

KSUPILOT,

Just for fun you should check out this link about the driving end of Swift: http://home.mia.net/~detailer/Diary/a%20truckers%20life.htm

I'm sure that the apple doesn't fall too far from the tree with Swift. As for Flops, it is a good place to go if you are low experience. You will get an opportunity to fly with good and terrible pilots in high performance jets. If you are low experience, it is a great opportunity, when you've been around the block in aviation, it can be frightening. Good luck!

 

[CitationCapt]

A turn in the road

I can relate. January 2005 may be the end for my high altitude office. And yes there is a life outside of aviation. Good luck to all of you considering making the jump. I am ready for it if a certain opportunity comes through.

CC

 

[flyr4hire]

Ditto

what Apache said... a good place to gain experience but just that, no career potential. One definition of a career would include something similar to "advancing within a chosen profession". If that profession is aviation, being at FLOPS will move you along, but you will not go anywhere staying at FLOPS. Thats just the way it is right now, and probably will stay for everyone on the bottom 2/3rds of the list. As a 3+ yr FO, I'll have to wait AT LEAST until I begin my 5th year to even have a shot at a CPT position and stand virtually no chance of ever being a captain in anything other than a small cabin. Therefore, in order to progress in my chosen profession, I've had to go elsewhere, in my case to a 135 charter gig; hired as a CPT and getting paid more than a 2nd yr CPT at FLOPS. If I had it to do all over again, I would do it the same way, no regrets, they called first, but it is a different company now: not the same freedom of domiciles, training contracts, reduced per diem payments, restrictions on how/when you can use paid time off/reserve accounts, slowed growth, little movement for upgrades, and confusing messages by upper management. On another note, Thanks for the advice Apache. It is a doggone shame... If nothing else, now I'll have a schedule that will allow me to go back to school to get that Masters so I can get out of aviation all together if this gig doens't work.

 

[TurboJetCpt]

This too, has been happening over at nutjets. Not a great stampede out the door but 1 or 2 a month leave aviation for good because of the current state of affairs. Great move and Good luck !!!

 

[Fracster]

If the industry ever does pick up the stampede with begin at NutJets. Were all happy to have a job at the present time but that doesnt mean were happy WITH the job. Options, NJA, Flex, Citation Shares are all the same. They are equivalent in the same manner all regionals are the same. A few variations here and there but not career jobs. Maybe SU will change some things otherwise I am leaning in the same direction as flyr4hire.

Looking back, charter and corporate werent that bad afterall. No schedule but much better pay and a lot more time off. Less overnights, legs, stress and shorter days/tours.

Uncertainty is everywhere. Maybe remaining at a Frac means you have perceived stability but what is stability with low pay. I suppose it depends on what side of the fence you are on.

Good luck to you flyr4hire, don't forget about the rest of us who may come knocking one day.

 

[pilot error]

good call. leaving options was the best thing i ever did.

 

[TailDraggerTed]

Good luck Brother.

As my Uncle used to say, may the worst of your future be the best of your past.

Let us know how they take the news and treat you on the way out.

 

[Flight level]

Good luck to you. I've been there. Sometimes quality of life is more important...

 

[Grim Reaper]

Well, off ya go and good luck to ya. Hope the grass is greener.

 

[dhc8ap]

I made the jump back to the business side of life. Don't regret it, better pay, holidays off and better insurance. It's nice to be a disinterested bystander in everything that is going on. No doubt, it's a hard move to make but those that are the hardest are usually the best moves one makes.

I wish they would write a book about what pilots do with their lives after aviation and distribute it to all the aviation schools for prospective students. They clearly believe a job making 300K a year is waiting for them.

 

[AA717driver]

Man, sorry this business is driving so many good people out. There's plenty of entry level stuff but there's a "glass ceiling" stopping the majority from moving on to the really good jobs.

Good luck to all.TC

 

[Corona]

I'm so glad to see a group of pilots with personal standards. If the industry were only composed of your types, we wouldn't have the BS treatment of pilots so common in the market today.

I used to say I'd be happy flying a 172 for my career, if it was the right job. Well, these days I'm looking for that job with waning hopes of finding it.

Good luck out there,

C

 

[Lrjet55]

My New Years resolution is to get out of NutJets, I mean, Netjets.

I haven't totaly given up on flying just the company.

 

[Grim Reaper]

Lrjet55, I am glad to know that I am not the only one resolved to leave fractional aviation. I began this fractional gig five years ago. I have tolerated the RTA / FO merger fiasco and can stand no more of it.

I believe, after all this time, that the guys and gals flying for the fractional are doomed to a life of drudgery stuck bottom of the pilot pay scale as well as being harnessed to the beckon call of the latest K-Mart Cashier Reject manning a phone in the company ops center. These good folks will spend at least half or more of their lives away from home with nothing to look forward to except more of the same because of mediocre corporate leadership, poor share pricing plans designed to undercut the competition, and continued slow economic growth.

 

[aeronautic1]

Whew... dodged that bullet

Boy, I almost went to the fracs and after talking to friends at you know who... plus these boards, I am very grateful to be in a cushy G200 corporate gig.. even with it's own flaws. But the pay is better, no PFT, execllent maintenance; and most of the time I am on call, I am on call sitting on a beach in Florida. The fracs management are nothing more than wanna-be airline execs. And we know just how magnificent airline execs are.

 

[Voice Of Reason]

Boy, I almost went to the fracs and after talking to friends at you know who... plus these boards, I am very grateful to be in a cushy G200 corporate gig.. even with it's own flaws. But the pay is better, no PFT, execllent maintenance; and most of the time I am on call, I am on call sitting on a beach in Florida. The fracs management are nothing more than wanna-be airline execs. And we know just how magnificent airline execs are.

--------------------------------------------
The very worst of Fractional execs, as horrible as many of them can be, will NEVER come close to the best of the slimeball execs of the airlines, so trust me, there is no "wannabe airline" anywhere in this scenario. Airlines are fast on the way to being the modern day Greyhound, and show no signs of that changing in our lifetimes. You can spend your life chasing that illustrious "carrot" of big paying airline job forever, but those days are over. Finito. Gone.

Pilots will always want more pay, and better treatment...that is just the nature of the beast...however, I am sure most rational pilots would rather be dealing with the fractionals (and doing what they can to make their jobs/pay better if they see fit) than be furloughed from or dealing with airline cr*p these days...NOR would they want to be on call the amount of time that most corporate (or worse yet charter) gigs require. There is an extremely EXTREMELY small percentage of corp gigs that are actually the fabled "dream jobs" we all hear about, no matter what smack guys you blab with in the FBOs try to impress you with. Not having a good block of SCHEDULED days off doesn't sound like a good deal to me, no matter where you are "sitting" (unless it is at HOME and a regular thing (dream on) to sit at home).

With so many corp gigs going to the fractionals, I'd feel more secure at the fractionals (not that there is any security in any aspect of the industry these days). Sure they DO need to be paid more, but right now, so do a good percentage of pilots EVERYWHERE.

As much as everyone complains about their fractional gig, and laments about the sky falling...they still know they've got it a heck of a lot better than the majority of pilots in the entire industry right now, even senior airline pilots are left have to wonder if they'll have a pension, or also if the airline will find a way to restructure itself into a low cost model, and eliminate their "reality" as they know it. tick-tock, tick, tock. Sad, but true little reality check for all.

 

[rajflyboy]

There is no pension at the fractionals. Just the good old 401K account. Not bad if you have the spare cash to use it and you invest wisely.

In the end scheduled 121 flying is still better than flying with the fractionals. The fractionals jobs appear to have security and the pilots are happy to have work and get the pay check for now. If the airline business corrects itself and we see big time hiring again I would think you will see plenty of movement out of the fractionals and back into the 121 industry.

 

[Voice Of Reason]

There is no pension at the fractionals. Just the good old 401K account. Not bad if you have the spare cash to use it and you invest wisely.

In the end scheduled 121 flying is still better than flying with the fractionals. The fractionals jobs appear to have security and the pilots are happy to have work and get the pay check for now. If the airline business corrects itself and we see big time hiring again I would think you will see plenty of movement out of the fractionals and back into the 121 industry.

As I said you are more than free to spend your life chasing the fabled carrot, but it's over. You will likely see 401K being the norm everywhere...give it a little time...The "legacies" are already setting the bar lower in that respect, and the rest will likely follow, just because they can and it's been done. The casual airline traveller has had enough of the chaos and doesn't want to pay more than ten bucks for a fare. The low cost carriers didn't have such a presence before as they do now, so any pipe dreams of things going back to they way it was as far as "THE Airlines" is nothing more than just that. Try to see reality for just a minute or you will spend your life feeling as if the grass is always greener elsewhere...That's a pretty miserable existence...

I also find it sad to hear so many pilots (furloughs in particular) categorize themselves as "former" this or "former" that...as if their whole identity is wrapped up in what "used to be." It's just as bad to hear all of the people that feel like their whole identity is to be destined for something that just isn't realistic anymore. Everyone should want to better themselves...but geezsh when it becomes a personal hell and sense of identity it is sad.

 

[Fracster]

Lets not kid ourselves. NJA, Flex, Options are all crap jobs. The only people who make these career jobs are people who cant, for whatever reason, go anywhere else.
Unfortunately, those people who cant or havent been anywhere else are the ones running the show. Case in point, look at the NJA MEC who negotiated the contract. 5 guys whos careers consisted of NJA only. Not all that bad in itself but the POS TA was an example of their abilities and mentality.

I personaly wouldnt compare a Frac management to an airline management. They both suck but independently different. I do think the Frac managements are trying to be pro-active. NJA is an example of that. Is it working, will it work, can it work...who knows.

I know at NJA as soon as they can remove the majority of the people in descision making positions without any outside aviation experience then we will be better off.
Unlike an airline, the true Frac model has not been established. It continues to evolve everyday. For example, the NJA training mentality is still "this is how we have always done it". That may work in a proven system like the airlines but it doesnt work here.
Still, the pay sucks, the job sucks, the retirement sucks and the benefits are average.
The fracs are equivalent to a regional airline. Thats it and nothing more, PERIOD!
We have some benefits that are better than theirs and they have some better than us.
People still keep coming to NJA with the hopes it will turn out to be as advertised. Those of us here are still waiting but ready to bolt should a good oportunity arise.
Anyone who asks me whether or not they should apply here, well, I get their background and explain to them what life is like and let them make the descision.
Most of us are here because we had no other choice, furlough for example, or thought it was something it wasnt, not yet atleast.
For those of us still here we have to be hopeful. What choice do we have.
I'd love to go to Southwest but I dont have 10 grand to bet with.

and most of the time I am on call,

Being on call isnt so bad if the job is good and the owner/company is descent. You still make more moeny, work less and have a better quality of life.

 

[Voice Of Reason]

Lets not kid ourselves. NJA, Flex, Options are all crap jobs. The only people who make these career jobs are people who cant, for whatever reason, go anywhere else. If you think this is the case, that's truly sad.
Still, the pay sucks, the job sucks, the retirement sucks and the benefits are average.
The fracs are equivalent to a regional airline. Thats it and nothing more, PERIOD!
We have some benefits that are better than theirs and they have some better than us. Someone's seriously smoking something (or has never worked at a regional). Been there, done that, and not at ALL comparable.
People still keep coming to NJA with the hopes it will turn out to be as advertised. Those of us here are still waiting but ready to bolt should a good oportunity arise.

Sorry NetJets is so awful..I can't speak of that particular company by experience, but it sounds like you've got it rough there. Fortunately, while other fracs would like more pay, it isn't as bad as what it sounds like you are going through at NetJets. You have my pity, I guess, if that is what you are searching for. I can think of worse problems in this world right now, so I tend to avoid the entitlement outlook. We have MUCH to be thankful for in this priveleged country...and so many options to move on to better & happier things, instead of living in a "woe is me" selfish personal purgatory... I'll bet a lot of people in this world right now wish they had such options to change their unhappy lives.

 

[On Your Six]

Pilots tend to have a lot of time on their hands to b!tch about their jobs... In the end, no job is perfect - otherwise it would be called "fun" instead of a job. People who go the fractional route should know about the work schedule as well as the low salaries before signing on - that should be well understood.

However, if you are looking for a place that provides:

1. Nice jet equipment (e.g., Citation X, Sovereign or CL300)
2. Interesting variety (e.g., more than just the airline hub routes)
3. A reasonable schedule once you can hold it (e.g., 7/7)
4. The ability to live in a variety of locations (excluding Flexjet which is limited to 3-4 domiciles)

Then, maybe the fractionals could be the place for you so long as you don't expect the big bucks...

Again, everyone seems to have an ENTITLEMENT mentality in this business... You expect this and you expect that... Well, things have changed. You shouldn't expect the big bucks anyway in this business unless you fly for FEDEX on the MD-11.

I don't work for the fractionals but I have many friends who do. Some like it and some don't. If you are flying a Citation X on a 7/7 schedule and you are super depressed because you ain't earning FEDEX MD-11 wages, well maybe you should wake up and smell the coffee - wages/benefits are falling and won't be much better elsewhere - even JetBlue will pay EMB-190 pilots less than Mesa pilots....

 

[Voice Of Reason]

Pilots tend to have a lot of time on their hands to b!tch about their jobs... In the end, no job is perfect - otherwise it would be called "fun" instead of a job. People who go the fractional route should know about the work schedule as well as the low salaries before signing on - that should be well understood.

Again, everyone seems to have an ENTITLEMENT mentality in this business... You expect this and you expect that... Well, things have changed. You shouldn't expect the big bucks anyway in this business unless you fly for FEDEX on the MD-11.

If you are flying a Citation X on a 7/7 schedule and you are super depressed because you ain't earning FEDEX MD-11 wages, well maybe you should wake up and smell the coffee - wages/benefits are falling and won't be much better elsewhere - even JetBlue will pay EMB-190 pilots less than Mesa pilots....

Another Voice of Reason, and contented soul! Life could be MUCH worse...

 

[Grizz]

...Then, maybe the fractionals could be the place for you so long as you don't expect the big bucks...

Again, everyone seems to have an ENTITLEMENT mentality in this business... You expect this and you expect that... Well, things have changed. You shouldn't expect the big bucks anyway in this business unless you fly for FEDEX on the MD-11.

All I've gotta say is thank God you're not part of our voting block.

I know lots of pilots at NetJets that aren't necessarily looking for "the big bucks." What they are looking for is a salary commensurate with the profession they are in. They fly the world's richest people in corporate jets and expect to be paid a professional salary.

Folks like yourself drive this industry into the crap heap. "Hey, I'm flying a pretty new jet and staying in a decent hotel...who needs any pay for this?" If you weren't so pathetic you'd almost be funny.

 

[Dep676]

These guys must have gotten to the "Kool-Aid" party before someone could stop them.

Yeah I don't see where anyone wants to be paid the big bucks. I think we all want to paid fairly. By that I mean not qualify for government cheese.

 

[dime line]

on your six.......your retired from the millitary right?

 

[Voice Of Reason]

These guys must have gotten to the "Kool-Aid" party before someone could stop them.

Yeah I don't see where anyone wants to be paid the big bucks. I think we all want to paid fairly. By that I mean not qualify for government cheese.

No, just the "How can I feel sorry for myself as a pilot with all the real problems happing in the world right now" party. NO ONE is saying what you are insinuating, and if you had READ my posts, rather than just make assumptions out of your narcissitic, entitled, conclusion jumping manner, you would have seen what the point is. YES, by all means, go for the gold...try to increase your pay...but LOSE the highly unattractive entitlement mentality, and the life of MISERY that you are allowing yourself to lead. If you cannot POSSIBLY find any reason to carry yourself in a better way, because the misery is so consuming...then it is time to LEAVE your company (and/or the industry), and do something meaningful with your lives. This message board reminds me a of crew room full of pilots...so miserable, and it INFECTS the WHOLE industry. Can you work for better pay without being so RADICALLY unhappy? RADICAL unhappiness warrants a change...you are NOT "stuck" where you are, and if it was TRULY as imminently "doom and gloom" as you are making it to be, I have to question your sanity as to why you are still there.
Take a sabbatical, get to Phuket and HELP some people TRULY in need, and get a reality check on this life of yours.