Another MU2 down...

[Flyin Tony]

kalifornian fruitcakes.

Hey now!! Other then that AVBUG good read.

 

[WNRHD17]

and please stop calling us who are talking down the MU-2 idiots....this is part of our grieving process. what do you expect us to say, "we believe Paul and the latest pilot did make huge errors in the MU-2 and yes, they were the cause of their own demise." Of course not. I don't think anyone is jumping to conclusions because like previously stated, we don't know all the facts yet. That would be completely ignorant and we're all smart enough to know better, even when overcome emotionally by this whole thing. If we were to weed out all the so-called "idiots" posting on this board there might not be anyone left....flightinfo might cease to exist....and no one would enjoy that.

 

[350DRIVER]

have you been imbibing? that is pure unadulterated BS and spoken like a true BUFFOON

What part of avbug's response was "pure unadulterated BS"?. I obviously missed this so if you would care to shed some light on this I am somewhat certain that a few out there (myself included) would like to know where this was in his reply. Loss is sad, no one is walking out of this world alive so for you to intentionally condemn one make and model is outright insane.

 

[TIGV]

and please stop calling us who are talking down the MU-2 idiots....this is part of our grieving process. what do you expect us to say, "we believe Paul and the latest pilot did make huge errors in the MU-2 and yes, they were the cause of their own demise." Of course not. I don't think anyone is jumping to conclusions because like previously stated, we don't know all the facts yet. That would be completely ignorant and we're all smart enough to know better, even when overcome emotionally by this whole thing. If we were to weed out all the so-called "idiots" posting on this board there might not be anyone left....flightinfo might cease to exist....and no one would enjoy that.

Actually, mindless ramblings designed to imply some kind of knowledge on the subject matter are idiotic and disrespectful.

Grieve....and grieve with me, with us...we are all family and the loss of anyone is a horror we all live through and hope we never feel again.

We are however, in the type of flying we do, more exposed to weather, sleep deprivation, high workload, the list goes on....than most other kinds of flying. It is sometimes not always possibe to bring one's ' A ' game, choosing to fly in this condition is a gamble I myself used to take.....Till last December..........

 

[Wolfy]

All I know is that because of lawsuits by bereaved families, by 1986, industry production of single engine aircraft went down by 95%. Cessna was forced to stop their manufacturing of single engine aircraft because of this type of tort litigation. The Federal government was prompted to put a cap on this type of lawsuit because of the damaging effects on aviation as a whole. Over 100,000 aviation jobs were lost before the General Aviation Revitalization Act (GARA) became a law, since that enactment, Cessna began manufacturing again.



I know of a pilot who at seventeen was pulled aside by his test pilot father, before he soloed. The father, rather than talking about the personal responsibility and risks that lay ahead simply said, “If you’re crossing the street and some drunk driver runs you over, then it’s your own fault for being there in the first place.” Most pilots I know epitomize this kind of mindset.



As a pilot you’re supposed to fly the airplane to the very end, the responsibility is yours whenever you climb into the left seat, regardless if the airplane is more or less unforgiving of any lapse on the pilot’s part or malfunction-or you shouldn’t be climbing in. Most pilots I’ve ever met and all of my aviation heroes that I’ve read about, typify this can-do attitude, and decide to firmly take their fate into their own hands, fate is the hunter, and it’s a known risk most every pilot accepts.



The people that find it hard to accept are those who are left without them after the fact, the loved ones, who perhaps never bought into the same dreams or were never fully identified with the risks of flying professionally. Often, loved ones deal with the grief of loss by getting angry and blaming, it is human nature, and we can be sympathetic to that as a community of caring people, who happen to fly. We tend to look at accidents unemotionally and chalk up the risk as part of the job, that is a perspective unitiated ones find hard to understand.



Nonetheless, I believe Avbug, 350, and others are right in their assessments of harder to handle or less forgiving airplanes, even insurance rates are higher for some, reflecting the added risk and skill level to accomplish the job.


Barring mechanicle malfunction and pilot error, I don't believe that there has ever been proof of a design flaw with this airplane, which begs the question, is it the airplane manufacturer's responsibility or the government's responsibility to protect us from violent death? Or do we assume this responsibility when we make the choice to be the Pilot in Command when flying inherently quick aircraft which can have cascading operational failures that can race out of control?


I think if we're flyin it, we've consiously made that decision already, whether we've announced it to anyone else or not.


Tough stuff, my condolences to all.

 

[Peanut gallery]

Avbug goes way too far on this one

While he makes some good points about the responsibility of the PIC and loss of life, his knowledge of some of these specific aircraft is extremely off base.
Since I am most familiar with the learjet I will use this as an example.

First my credentials regarding the learjet.

Check Airman and PPE Learjet, Consultant to the NTSB in several loss of control accidents, Consultant to the FAA on accident investigation and PIC on subsequent test flights to determine controllable issues. 5,000 hours PIC in the 23 series.

While all this was over 20 years ago I feel very comfortable talking about this aircraft type. First of all I really enjoyed the Learjet and feel that it has evolved into a very safe aircraft if operated by professional flight crews. The problem is that it was an evolution that took several years to get right. There were 100 23 series learjets built in the mid-60's. It was originally a CAR 23 certified aircraft. When learjet came out with the 24 and 25 series aircraft they were certified under part 25. It took substancial upgrades and changes to make them comply with part 25 standards. Of the original 100 23's built over 40 had been crashed in the first 12 years. That number now stands at 68 with many just parked due to lack of interest.
The 23 had a vref of 148 knots with the original wing at max landing weight, that wing has been modified by AD. The original wing operating during approach in light turbulence could actually get a shaker while still above the max extension speed of the flaps. The yaw damper was very ineffective and could cause yaw rather than dampen. The amount of aerodynamic bandaids that were put on learjets to correct it's weakness's were substancial. Pushers, Pullers, Nudgers and boundry layer energizers, numerous changes to flight manual, including such things as requiring certain types of foot wear. The list goes on and on. When training new Captains we would let them fly on of the 24's or 25's early in the game but the 23 required a bunch more OE.

While I agree with some of Avbugs points I strongly disagree that aircraft are all the same. Some have certain defeciencies in their basic design. This is why they were dumped by corporate flight departments fairly early in there lives and spend the rest of there time being operated by the 135 check haulers. They are cheap ( for a reason ) but have the performance to get the job done. The aspects of these aircraft that make them less controllable require additional vigilance in terms of training and supervision of flight crewmembers. The lack of supervision and dialog that exists in some of these small companies is what increases the potential for accidents.
These aircraft can and have been operated by folks for years without incident, but in the case of an operation that has had two incidents in less than a year the indication is quite clear that a review of who is running this company is in order.

 

[Wolfy]

Huh?

Peanut,


I think you skimmed over avbug's post too quickly, I read that he is saying what your sayin, that some planes are different but not dangerous, especially if your trained enough and skilled enough to handle them. I don't see where he ever said they were the same.

How about merely learning to fly it properly, or stepping aside to let someone else do so....All airplanes have personalities, strengths, weaknesses

It is obvious that some mechanicle failures cannot be overcome, whether it's a maintenance issue or due to loosing an engine or due to icing. There are plenty of incidences where a twin looses an engine and cannot overcome circumstances and maintain or even gain altitude. Aside from that, or even when that happens, we still are the one who made the choice to fly that airplane.

 

[skyking1976]

Hey Corpflunkie; Do me a big favor and stop pointing out what's "key" in your assessment of the MU2 and the people who fly them. You speak in historic generalizations that most people with your background do. There is a Japanese proverb that goes something like this: "If you understand everything--then you must be mistaken". Seems like a lot of posters on this subject understand everything. After all my years in the industry I still don't understand everything. And that includes the MU2. Try as I may, I still don't buy into the fact that "things just happen". That is simply a paraphrase the NTSB gives as a reason for aircraft accidents/incidents. It means they really don't know what happened and can't find out. You seem to have the whole matter canned in one neat little package and that's the end of it. Excellent! The FAA is looking for a few good men. Maybe you should take your expertise to them and help them out a bit. I'm sure they're going to need help with the MU2 situation in the near future. It occurs to me that you have the ability to ascertain causes of several accidents before all the facts are in. With this kind of gift you shouldn't have to fly airplanes for a living. Fortune telling is making a big comeback. Allow me another quote. Mark Twain said: Never make predictions -- especially about the future. So please stop this inane lecturing to me, my family and others as well. I've heard it hundreds of times before in crew rooms populated authoritarians like yourself who pontificate as to the causes of airplane accidents. Give it a rest. And get a new name to post with. Corpflunkie just doesn't conjure up a great image of an experienced and well versed pilot for me. As a matter of fact, do me another favor. Go to the bathroom, look in the mirror and whisper "Corpflunkie". Hugs, Dad

 

[semperfido]

What part of avbug's response was "pure unadulterated BS"?. I obviously missed this so if you would care to shed some light on this I am somewhat certain that a few out there (myself included) would like to know where this was in his reply. Loss is sad, no one is walking out of this world alive so for you to intentionally condemn one make and model is outright insane.

to start- this is BS;
"Any professional pilot who blames the airplane overhimself is no professional, but a kid with a lot of growing up to do. "

Accidents and incidents happens for many reasons and some of them are through no fault or deficiency in the pro pilot. Avbug is full of bravado, hence the BS meter is pegged. Do I really need to pick through his verbose essay line by line?

fido

 

[ACT700]

HEY CORPFLUNKIE,

here's a dare: take up skyking1976's advice and join the FAA. Then do me a favor; pull his effin' certificate!

Excellent! The FAA is looking for a few good men. Maybe you should take your expertise to them and help them out a bit.

Then join the Bush dictatorship, and have his a$$ arrested for rambling like a --

ahh screw this, I don't have the energy to comment on all you morons.

What a turd!



It occurs to me that you have the ability to ascertain causes of several accidents before all the facts are in.

None of us (Corpflunkie, Avbug, myself, and the other so called MU2 defenders) have stated anything as to what might have happened in these accidents.
On the contrary, we have all along been saying that "hold your horses everybody, we don't even know what happened yet!"



Corpflunkie just doesn't conjure up a great image of an experienced and well versed pilot for me.
Neither do you to me!!


As a matter of fact, do me another favor. Go to the bathroom, look in the mirror and whisper "Corpflunkie". Hugs, Dad

I don't get it?! WTF over?

You sir, are a turd.


Semperfido,

I don't understand your comment about avbug either. I mean, yes, he did make his statement loooong, but I agree with everything he said.

I'm going to have to seek out my local crack dealer, 'cause some of the stuff on here is just going right over my head.

But maybe I'm just a dumba$$. Afterall, I do fly an MU2 for a living....

 

[ACT700]

That came out weird, huh?

All of it came out as a quote. Just to make sure skyking1976 doesn't get freaky on me, he did not write all of that in the quote box.

But I don't feel like rewriting all.

The first sentence in the quote box was skyking1976's comment. Then, my thoughts on his statements.

Clear as mud?

 

[avbug]

Accidents and incidents happens for many reasons and some of them are through no fault or deficiency in the pro pilot. Avbug is full of bravado, hence the BS meter is pegged. Do I really need to pick through his verbose essay line by line?

fido

Yes, perhaps you ought. I'm quite serious in my comments, and I stand behind them. It's no bravado. I have utter contempt and disgust for any pilot that fails to stand behind his work. I've dealt with engine failures, fires, and system failures of every kind you can imagine...not just in simulators, but in the field where it really counts. Not once have I ever undertaken to blame the airplane for the outcome of the flight. I made the decision to fly it, and the buck stops with me. I'm one hundred percent responsible for the safe outcome of the flight, no matter what may occur; I'm paid to take that responsibility and to exercise the judgement that is required to see it come to pass, and I seal the deal with my honor and with my blood. I sign for the airplane and in so doing I sign a blood oath that I will do my utmost, give my all, to see the flight through to a safe conclusion.

As do we all.

You think this is untrue, "bs"? Think again. Any pilot who doesn't accept this, any pilot who doesn't and can't accept the full weight of responsibility, doesn't deserve to be a pilot, and has failed his duty before the flight has ever begun.

I meet pilots who blame the weather, a sudden gust, a mechanic, their copilot or first officer, dispatch, the FAA, their wife, or any other possible excuse under God and the sun, for their performance. We all have. These men have no honor, and have failed their basic duty of accepting the weight of responsibility as PIC. Conversely, I've met a few honorable men who had the gumption to stand before the public when asked for an explaination and simply say "I Fricked up." Exactly as it should be, exactly as required by regulation, exactly as per their duty.

You tear it apart line by line, brightspark. If you can't accept true responsibility, your arguements or thoughts hold no water...your commentary can only truly be about yourself. I remember many years ago, standing at attention, an angry sounding young man in my ear, bellowing for an explaination. I was only allowed one thing to say, which I bellowed back lound and clear..."NO EXCUSE, SIR!"

I'm sure you have that one down pat too, don't you? Then why not admit it?



--I really wish the censor feature would merely put in "censored" instead of the watered down language it now substitutes, if it must do anything at all. Profanity has it's place in the lexicon in the right circumstance, and altering it to meet the sunday school teacher's approval only sounds weak.

 

[WNRHD17]

So the pilots on the Spaceship Columbia were at fault b/c a piece of foam came off during takeoff? Oh but wait, THEY made the conscience decision to become a pilot in a spaceship....that's right it IS their fault....so it's my fault I was t-boned by some a-hole who ran a stop sign a couple years ago? Oh wait, it is my fault, I should have been looking in that direction! Duh! So essentially, we are all to blame for anything and everything that happens to us? None of asked to be born you know...so who's to blame for that? Our parents? Well, they didn't ask to be born either....hmm...so now where do we turn? God? WAit, not everyone believes in god, it must be something universal....the single-celled organisms where life began? Nah, that can't be it. Once again, I repeat, ANYTHING that is man-made has the possibility and/or probability of being faulty in one way or another. I believe you are 100% responsible for any choice you consciously make in life, no matter what it is, but there are factors that aren't being accounted for.

 

[Snakum]

If we were to weed out all the so-called "idiots" posting on this board there might not be anyone left

God ... that is SO true. I'm one of the biggest.

(Making goofy Forest Gump wave ... ) "Hey Dad! Hey Miriam!"

While I agree, in theory, with most of what Avbug said (as I usually do), I believe he might have toned down or otherwise modified the manner in which he said it, out of respect for the rather unique circumstances of this thread.

I'm in a unique situation in all this ... Paul was a friend of mine, as are (now) his sisters, his father, and his widow. He was a great guy who bent over backwards to give this psuedo-old-fart career-changer all sorts of advice, a discount at Jeppesens, and gave my employer an 'In' at the Jeppesen IT department on an outsourced project. He was an awesome young man. He was also, by all accounts, an outstanding pilot and I have no doubt that he fought all the way in.

Not long before we lost Paul, I lost my father to Cancer a very, very short time after he was diagnosed. My father was a mentor and a best friend and losing him forced me to face my own mortality in a way that twenty years contemplating my own demise on a meditation cushion never did. It finally sunk in that I, too, was not immortal after all and I really would die one day, much to my amazement. I didn't handle it well at all. Then, I had just started flying a bit after his death when we lost Paul, adding fuel to the fire. It's embarrassing to say this, but for a while I was terrified of getting in an airplane. I'd go out to the FBO, rent the plane, preflight, and just before getting in the d*mn thing I'd literally have a panic attack. I even sent a PM to Paul's father to talk about it, despite the embarrasment. It was a very uncomfortable time.

I went home without flying a few times before I finally realized the following things: I have (and always have had) excellent hand-eye coordination and reflexes and I can ride, fly, drive, or sail just about anything I have ever sat my fat butt in or on with minimal training. It's just one of those things I could always do well. And while I am definitely NOT the brightest bulb in the lamp (an understatement ), I have a work ethic and discipline for learning that few can match. Before flying a new aircraft - even with an instructor - I will pour over every page of the POH, post numerous questions here about the plane, ask anyone and everyone within earshot about it's characteristics and 'gotchas', go back thru my PPL books with this specific aircraft in mind ... all before even going up with an instructor. What I lack in brains ... I make up for in discipline and determination to learn. And so I finally saw that I was at least as good a pilot as anyone who has ever sat in an airplane, I knew my stuff from studying my butt off, and I could execute due to good basic skills and a willingness to continually polish them, and lastly ... that I could get killed driving to the airport much quicker than in the airplane. And so the fear was finally broken. I fully understood that I had done my part, and now I could hide under my bed the rest of my life and give up on a dream, or I could get my fat ass back in the air and face my fear. I haven't had a problem since. Now the really good part ...

There is another young Captain/Ops Manager who has also been a very generous mentor to me over the past couple years, and he is building a 91/135 flight department from scratch which will eventually consist of two turboprops and one light jet. He has offered to interview me next Summer - assuming I can, by then, meet the insurance TT/ME time requirements. No guarantees, but an offer to look at me for one of the FO positions next year. And wouldn't you know it ... one of the turboprops is an MU-2. However, just as I trust my physical skills and my discipline/motivation for learning and practice, I also trust his judgement on airplanes. He is adamant that all Captains AND First Officers will attend Flight Safety or Howell Enterprises for MU-2 training. He has already shown that he's not the kind of Manager/Chief Pilot to train the Captain the cheapest way possible and then throw the FO into the airplane for OJT on the gear and radios. He is obviously very serious about training both crew members to highest standard possible. He also takes maintenance very seriously, as well. I know, for example, that he has had an issue on the Mitsu with the contracted maintenance people, and as a result he has had a 'prayer meeting' with them and he has mentioned to me that he won't hesitate to take it somewhere else. His opinion on the MU-2 is that top-notch maintenance is crucial for safe flight operations and he has said the company will spare no expense to ensure his maintenance is second to none.

So, to wind up my long, boring post ... though I readily admit to having gone thru a period of literally being terrified of flying any airplane, and though I will still admit that I am a bit apprehensive about the MU-2, specifically, I know that I possess the innate physical ability to fly practically anything, given the proper training. And I know that my self-discipline and motivation for learning and practice will keep me sharp. I just have to do my part. I also trust the Chief Pilot 100%, and I believe him when he says the MU-2 training will be first rate for ALL crewmembers and that the MU-2 maintenance will never be fudged nor less than top-notch. And so, if I am eventually offered a job in the right seat of an MU-2, I will not hesitate to pack up the car and go. I've weighed the pros and cons, I trust my own abilities, and I trust the Chief Pilot will do what he says he'll do. Despite the MU-2s reputation, and despite the fact that a friend of mine died in one, I will happily strap into one if given the opportunity because I trust all those involved in it's operation completely.

That's really all any of can do, isn't it? We choose a company that doesn't scrimp on money where safety is concerned, and we work hard at staying sharp and maintaining our knowledge of the airplane. We have to either choose well and train hard ... or hang it and go sell used cars at Billy Ray Jackson's Auto Auction.

I'll shut up now.

Minh

 

[Peanut gallery]

Avbug is right on, about these issues

The problem I have with this thread is the logic that is taking place.

Some aircraft do have issues. A company that intends to operate them needs to effectively deal with those issues, in terms of training, checking and continuing some sort of self critique on how they are doing.

I would not blame an aircraft that has been around this long for it's shortcommings. I did take objection to the thought of playing them down. These pilots did the best they could I am sure with the tools they were given.

So what if in the end you are forced to say that your loved one screwed the pouch. He or she is still that special person that you will remember as long as you live. I personally have had to come to terms with the loss of my best friend many years ago and rather than fight the idea of him being perfect I remember that special, funny talented individual that I still miss 20 years later. The thoughts I have about companies and corporate culture changing to mitigate risk and remove risk from operations while still operating effectively are a tribute to my friend that was caught up in a similar process of lack of support and structure.

Pilots need support from the company that they are flying for in terms of the above process. I feel that the folks that are no longer with us would be better served if their friends, co-workers, and families brought attention to the environment in which these things did not occur as evidenced by another accident by the same operator.

In the 121 world the most recent advancement is ATOS which seeks to address these issues at a company level. Most major carriers have been required to implement ATOS procedures. Any new certificates are required to meet ATOS requirements. It would be excellent if the 135 world would adopt these ideas, especially ones that operate basically a schedule.

The checks and balances that enhance safety just seem to be missing from this company. The record speaks for itself.

Where there is smoke, there is fire

 

[avbug]

Who put the muzzle of a .45 pistol to the foreheads of each shuttle astronaut and forced him or her to volunteer for that mission?

Not a soul on board would ever breathe a word contrary to the immortal words of Dick Scobee, who died in the Challenger disaster, when he said it's almost a crime to get paid for doing something he loved so much.

Yes, the mission commander, the pilot in command, and the NASA Administrator take the responsibility for what happened.

Personally, I have nothing but sick contempt for those who live to find blame...but if you want to lay blame in an airplane, lay it at the feet of the pilot in command.

Any pilot who doesn't accept it is a spinless fool. Dead or alive, we all know the score before we introduce fuel or spark, before we ever cross the dark tarmac and open a door, before we ever get out of bed. We know.

Knowing, and failing to accept full responsibility for loose foam, bad safety wire, thunderstorms, or two passengers far in the back who get into a fight...is cowardice and failure to uphold ones duty as PIC. In that aircraft, no authority short of God is greater than that of the PIC, and no soul can or should attempt to take away that responsibility. It's supreme, it's heavy, and it belongs on the shoulders of the PIC, pure and simple.

Anything else is a bald faced lie.

Where there is smoke, there is fire

Oh, I certainly hope so.

We need more fire. It's been a slow year.

 

[Standby 1]

As a former ACT'er, my heart goes out to the family......again. I'm terribly sad about this, but not suprised.

(thanking my lucky stars that I got out when I did over there)....



.

 

[WNRHD17]

who made you god of flightinfo, avbug? do you own the board? you seem to know it all....

 

[Snakum]

who made you god of flightinfo, avbug?

ROFLMAO!

I like Avbug (Anyone remember IFR Monkeys?), and he's forgotten more about flying than many of us will ever know. However, you're not the first poster who has asked this exact same question, m'lady. Still LMAO!

D'oh! I just blew coffee outta my nose and onto the keyboard.


Minhommad the Mad Muslim Pig Farmer

 

[semperfido]

Yes, perhaps you ought. I'm quite serious in my comments, and I stand behind them. It's no bravado. I have utter contempt and disgust for any pilot that fails to stand behind his work. I've dealt with engine failures, fires, and system failures of every kind you can imagine...not just in simulators, but in the field where it really counts. Not once have I ever undertaken to blame the airplane for the outcome of the flight. I made the decision to fly it, and the buck stops with me. I'm one hundred percent responsible for the safe outcome of the flight, no matter what may occur; I'm paid to take that responsibility and to exercise the judgement that is required to see it come to pass, and I seal the deal with my honor and with my blood. I sign for the airplane and in so doing I sign a blood oath that I will do my utmost, give my all, to see the flight through to a safe conclusion.

As do we all.

You think this is untrue, "bs"? Think again. Any pilot who doesn't accept this, any pilot who doesn't and can't accept the full weight of responsibility, doesn't deserve to be a pilot, and has failed his duty before the flight has ever begun.

I meet pilots who blame the weather, a sudden gust, a mechanic, their copilot or first officer, dispatch, the FAA, their wife, or any other possible excuse under God and the sun, for their performance. We all have. These men have no honor, and have failed their basic duty of accepting the weight of responsibility as PIC. Conversely, I've met a few honorable men who had the gumption to stand before the public when asked for an explaination and simply say "I Fricked up." Exactly as it should be, exactly as required by regulation, exactly as per their duty.

You tear it apart line by line, brightspark. If you can't accept true responsibility, your arguements or thoughts hold no water...your commentary can only truly be about yourself. I remember many years ago, standing at attention, an angry sounding young man in my ear, bellowing for an explaination. I was only allowed one thing to say, which I bellowed back lound and clear..."NO EXCUSE, SIR!"

I'm sure you have that one down pat too, don't you? Then why not admit it?



--I really wish the censor feature would merely put in "censored" instead of the watered down language it now substitutes, if it must do anything at all. Profanity has it's place in the lexicon in the right circumstance, and altering it to meet the sunday school teacher's approval only sounds weak.

What planet are you from Avbug? The NTSB reports are full of accidents that have probable causes that are not the pilot. Go peddle your "Holier than thou" trash somewhere else. Better yet, put on "The High and Mighty" - it is right up your alley.