Another American Airlines Incident

[browntail]

Avbug, your way off base. You seem to miss the whole point of my original post. It plainly states that airline crews are not the problem. I think half the blame lies with the FAA and the other half lies with the individual airlines. They are so slow to embrace technology to make flying safer. They always want to come down on the crews when they had nothing to do with what happened on 9-11. The actual security problem lies with the Arabs and should be dealt with accordingly.

Airline crews should be provided with standardized ID's that can be matched against a Federal database of airline employees. All the major unions have called for this action and still nothing has been done. The FAA has put the pilots at a huge disadvantage. They want to completely strip us of any chance for self defense on our aircraft. Many people were not aware of the fact that the FAA wanted to immediately draft an FAR prohibiting flight crew possession of a weapon. Hello you freaking morons, if the pilots would of had weapons with them that day the outcome would of been completely different. Why did the FAA want to prohibit crews from protecting themselves? Answer, because they are idiots!!!!!!!!! If a pilot wants to carry a gun, then he should be allowed to. We obey the laws of the land better than the darn police officers in America.

The other guys are right, my job is not a privilege! I busted my arse to get where I am! Nobody gave me a silver spoon! I earned my postition!!!

 

[ifly4food]

Avbug,
Your long rant sounds great but is backed up with nothing but heresay and your personal opinions. Thank you for your tongue lashing and for educating us on The Way You Think The Industry Ought To Be. For as good as everyone said you were in a debate, I have to say I'm disappointed. You rant, chide, embellish, and in the end prove nothing. You're entitled to your opinion, I'm entitled to mine. What matters is who can prove they're right to the authorities that can make a difference, not who is the king of internet grandstanding.
You may say I'm copping out by not addresing each point you bring up. You would be right. Nothing I say is going to change your mind. This topic is way off from where it started and only getting worse. Stalemate. It's time to move on.

 

[kilomike]

Well your silly response to avbug's excellent and informative posts on security by acting threatened by having crews undergo the same screening as all the other passengers and calling him a socialist puts you on the "very childish" list.

Frankly, as an airline passenger I would definitely want flight crews to undergo the same screening as the others because it is so easy for a terrorist to dress up like a crewmember and have a fake ID card. GET A GRIP! I DON"T CARE about your attitude that flight crews should be treated with special consideration--that guy behind you dressed in a pilot uniform COULD be a terrorist. Better safe than sorry! I am one of those who buys airline tickets to travel and I pay your salary by being a passenger. I DO NOT WANT to be a passenger on a flight flown by someone who calls reasonable people silly names or by someone who thinks it's OK to let those who look like flight crews slip by and threaten my butt by slipping through the cracks!!!! It's your butt too!!

(I used to work in the airline industry and even back then I never felt that it was a problem for security staff to take a look at my flight bag. I"d rather be safe than sorry. Wouldn't you????)

kilomike

 

[browntail]

Hey citation boy you don't pay my salary! Also answer me this question, how many of the "evil doers" have been WHITE ANGLO SAXON AMERICANS!!!!! You guys that don't fly for the airlines shouldn't even be replying to these comments. You have no clue what the job is like post 9-11!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

 

[Sleepyhead]

The industry needs to wake up and realize
a determined terrorist doesn't need to
bring a weapon on board.
The only way to stop these people is to
have better screening of WHO gets on
board an airplane.

 

[TurboS7]

For the last month I show up at security in uniform take my jacket
shoes and belt and all my hardware, and shoes, and send it through the X-ray, no beeps and works perfect. Cheers.

 

[ifly4food]

Well, KiloMoke, I'll bite at the risk of making another childish statement. I didn't have time to reply to Avbug's rant, and didn't really care to. As for your chiding, how often do you pass through security (post 9-11) when you report to work to fly your Citation? You haven't got the first or even second clue if what's going on out there. I love the "anybody can get a uniform and badge" argument that touse outside the industry come up with. You show me some proof of that... you can't even buy pilot shoes now without getting the third degree.

As for your other argument, I think we should ban all corporate aviation... some CE-900 pilot who didn't pass through security might carry out a terrorist attack. I think I'll write my Senator now.
Better safe than sorry, right?

 

[Pilotadjuster]

c4 and x-rays

A couple of points; plastic explosives (C4 or other types) are very stable and need a rather high source of heat to ignite. I had thought a blasting cap was necessary to produce the heat to ignite C4 (only did it once myself and thats how they had us wire the charge).

Also--c4 does not show up on x-ray scanners or with wand scanners. I have seen numerous television reports with people putting their shoes through the x-ray machine. A close inspection by security personnel would be far more effective (unless they are looking for shoe phones....).

PA

 

[RJPilot]

First, I would like to say avbugs makes some good points. Second, for those people who think c4 won't explode with out a blasting cap your wrong. Crude examples of c4 can be found in fireworks. Second, crude c4 can also be made in a persons house with some basic knowledge of chemistry. Granted it may not hold the punch as a military grade c4 but non the less this type of c4 can be easily set off by an accelerater (not blasting cap) and take the largest of planes down. Third, if the plane went down over the ocean do you think they would have ever recovered the parts or black box to know what really happened? How long do think this recovery could take?
Again, avbug makes some great points while iflyforfood is well... somewhat moronic. I love to take him into the lab and show him the truth about many things he is so ignorant about. By the time I am done with him he would be so paranoid he would be checking passengers and other pilot's under arm deodrant and nail polish.
Good Luck Bro-You need it.

 

[ifly4food]

iflyforfood is well... somewhat moronic. I love to take him into the lab and show him the truth about many things he is so ignorant about. By the time I am done with him he would be so paranoid he would be checking passengers and other pilot's under arm deodrant and nail polish.
Good Luck Bro-You need it.

1.) I never called you or anyone else a moron nor ignorant. Your personal attack was not necessary.

2) You may be right. However, I refuse to give in to this parenoid hysteria that is invading our society. To do so fufills the terrorist objective. If you want to do so, then that's your perogative.

I strongly suggest you refrain from personal attacks if you wish to continue to debate here.
See you on the line.

 

[AWACoff]

Actually, if a plane explodes, there is residue left on the debris. Once the wreckage is recovered (from the ocean, land, etc.), they can do chemical analysis on it. TWA 800 had this exact situation you are mentioning, RJPilot. It would be fairly easy to determine that a crash was caused by a bomb. My question is....can "bomb" sniffing dogs (the ones that sniff for chemicals, etc.) smell plastic explosives like C4, Semtex...? I know they can detect dynamite.
See Yoooooooo!

 

[1900laker]

In regards to the debate over personal "RIGHTS",


One poster asked for someone to name another job where you have to forfit some of your rights to be employed there.

Thats easy and it won't take me 3 pages.

The United States Armed Services. Each military member upon entering service becomes subject to the Uniform Code of Military Justice (UCMJ) which in many cases is far more restrictive than your normal rights as a citizen. The entire military is now made up of volunteers (no draft has been used since the early 70's). So there you have your example. I suspect that other members of governement service have similar instances where they forfeit some of their rights for their job.

No one forced them into those jobs, they volunteered. You have the right not to work for the airline.

I am not one for doing away with rights by any means, but lets not get ridiculous. Lets have a better system of screening that is appropriate for uniformed airline employees, where you are not being paraded in front of the public just simply to make them "feel" more safe. It can be done.


and AWACoff, I know the inside joke as well.

See Yoooooooooooo!

 

[ifly4food]

1900Laker,
While I agree that the military sector is closely screened, your argument is not valid. They aren't civillians.
I am a civillian. I didn't volunteer. I don't have to salute anyone nor take orders from airport soldiers. Military personnel do... they don't have the "rights" the rest of us do (while on duty). They gave this up when they signed on.
You are comparing apples vs. oranges.

As for your second statement, I agree. There is no need to parade us in this needless public spectacle. They still don't realize I have a crash ax and control wheel in my reach?!?

AWACoff, what was the "inside" joke?

 

[1900laker]

Alright you want a better example,

A city municipal worker says while on duty to a crowd of people that the mayor is an idiot. He exercises his first amendment right, and is immediately fired. Does he have a lawsuit?

How about a former government contractor that held a Top Secret clearance. He leaves his job, but decides to write a spy game type novel using info that he was privy to while holding his clearance. He should have submitted any literature with a theme as such for review by the appropriate agency before publication. But lets say he doesn't. He is excersing what he thinks is his 1st ammendment rights, but would undoubtedly go to prison if he divulged classified information.

There are examples all over the place of people who sacrifice some of their rights inherently in order to have the privelege of working some where.

If you were joe-blow citizen walking down the street, and were suddenly forced to go through a metal detector, wanded, patted down, and your belongings searched, I think you would have a valid point about your rights being violated.

Anytime you do anything that is considered a privelege in our society, you are now subject to new regulations which are often more restrictive than your rights as a citizen.

Let's use a common sense approach to all this, and stop with the extremism. If you wanna be an airline pilot, you are gonna have to put up with some crapola. It just needs to be reasonable crapola which our current security measures seem to be exceeding. A good cleansing of the FAA higher ups, and a replacement with some that would look at things objectively would probably fix 99% of what we see wrong out there today.
Separate access for crewmembers to secure areas than the general public would be a first step. Dual ID verification using retina/voice/thumb print/ or facial recog (these systems are all available today and are showing great promise and feasability) combined with an airlock type access (where only one person can go through at a time) would be a second step. Those two things would eliminate the need for personnel to screen employees going to work. If Flight crews are ever armed, there will have to be a system such as this in place, since there is no way we could go through the normal security checkpoints armed (what's the point).

The inside joke was someone we used to have at one of our bases while both working for Great Lakes. The guy would try to be nice to all the crews over our ops frequency. We would always say something like "later" or "C-ya" but in his foreign accent he would always reply in this pronunciation: "SEE UUUUUUUUUUUUUU", and it always made us kinda chuckle. Right Lakers?

 

[ifly4food]

Alright you want a better example,

A city municipal worker says while on duty to a crowd of people that the mayor is an idiot. He exercises his first amendment right, and is immediately fired. Does he have a lawsuit?

I think any employee who publicly degrades his boss while on duty would be fired. What's the relevance here?

How about a former government contractor that held a Top Secret clearance. He leaves his job, but decides to write a spy game type novel using info that he was privy to while holding his clearance. He should have submitted any literature with a theme as such for review by the appropriate agency before publication. But lets say he doesn't. He is excersing what he thinks is his 1st ammendment rights, but would undoubtedly go to prison if he divulged classified information.

If he divulged classified info, yes he broke the law. Again, apples vs. oranges... how does this apply to our situation?

There are examples all over the place of people who sacrifice some of their rights inherently in order to have the privelege of working some where.

If you were joe-blow citizen walking down the street, and were suddenly forced to go through a metal detector, wanded, patted down, and your belongings searched, I think you would have a valid point about your rights being violated.

I see no difference between Joe Blow on the street and Joe Blow at the airport. What would you say if the government did do random searches and pat downs with uniformed soldiers on the streets in the name of safety. After all, suicide bombers in Israel blow themselves up in public regularly. Would you favor that? Where does it end? See what I'm getting at here?

Anytime you do anything that is considered a privelege in our society, you are now subject to new regulations which are often more restrictive than your rights as a citizen.

I'm sad to hear going to work or travelling is now a privellege.

Let's use a common sense approach to all this, and stop with the extremism. If you wanna be an airline pilot, you are gonna have to put up with some crapola. It just needs to be reasonable crapola which our current security measures seem to be exceeding. A good cleansing of the FAA higher ups, and a replacement with some that would look at things objectively would probably fix 99% of what we see wrong out there today.
Separate access for crewmembers to secure areas than the general public would be a first step. Dual ID verification using retina/voice/thumb print/ or facial recog (these systems are all available today and are showing great promise and feasability) combined with an airlock type access (where only one person can go through at a time) would be a second step. Those two things would eliminate the need for personnel to screen employees going to work. If Flight crews are ever armed, there will have to be a system such as this in place, since there is no way we could go through the normal security checkpoints armed (what's the point).

I agree 100% This is what I've been saying all along. I think we really agree more than we disagree here.

The inside joke was someone we used to have at one of our bases while both working for Great Lakes. The guy would try to be nice to all the crews over our ops frequency. We would always say something like "later" or "C-ya" but in his foreign accent he would always reply in this pronunciation: "SEE UUUUUUUUUUUUUU", and it always made us kinda chuckle. Right Lakers?

Yes, good old Juanito in ORD ops. I am an ex-Laker.

See Youuuuuuuuuuuuuuuu!