Another Airtran/SWA cockpit thread

[jonjuan]

Kharma- you are correct in all that you have said. Nixon was very wise with that quote. We get freedom through forgiveness. We get enslaved by anger.

Speaking of which, do you proudly wear your OneLuv lanyard? If not, why?

 

[Tripower455]

The core problem is that if the AIP passes, you're going to have that kind of bitterness infecting your flight decks for DECADES. Is that what you really want?

Nope.....

Which is why I've been sick about this acquisition since 9/27. These things are never pleasant, and always lead to acrimony, regardless of the details. We haven't even integrated yet and everyone is pissed off, on BOTH sides (SL9 is far from a "windfall" for the SW guys).

SW as we knew it is gone forever if this thing goes through, either through SL9 or Arby.

Thanks Gary!

 

[Fubijaakr]

I too have received the dirty looks and cold shoulder treatment but it doesn't stop me from smiling and waving.

That's the best way to respond to people who treat you like that. It p.o.s them even more.

 

[jball2]

I don't wear my "one luv" lanyard. It's not out of disgust, I prefer my alma mater lanyard. Plus, my 7 year old daughter thought it was pretty and stole it to carry her wallet so she wouldn't lose it. I'm not kidding.

 

[Max Powers]

If I was a stapled AAI FO I would be pissed, but I am a 11 year SWA FO with junior DOH AAI CPs standing to make 60-70K more than I will for many years to come...welcome to the airline business...

Agreed that isn't right. So you give us some relative seniority and we give you the cpt seats.

 

[madjack]

Deal, but try convincing everyone else at SWA...

 

[Fubijaakr]

Agreed that isn't right. So you give us some relative seniority and we give you the cpt seats.

Relative seniority is a non-starter because it would be a windfall for AAI guys. Now if you ask for a ratio based on the date Valujet first flew then you might have something.

Couple that with a no bump/no flush policy with openings filled by seniority of the combined lists and everyone is protected until THEY decide to bid out of their current base position.

 

[madjack]

Couple that with a no bump/no flush policy with openings filled by seniority of the combined lists and everyone is protected until THEY decide to bid out of their current base position.

SWA wants to downsize ATL...

 

[Fubijaakr]

SWA wants to downsize ATL...

No bump/no flush doesn't mean no base reductions. It just means that senior SWA pilots can't bid in unless there's a vacancy (no bump) and that you can't have a flush bid (rebid the whole system).

If AAI pilots have their rightful seniority (pre-1993 SWA pilots on the list, ratio the rest) then any AAI pilots reduced out of ATL could go anywhere on the system their seniority could hold.

With a reasonable ratio deal, Captains would hold SWA left seats, senior AAI F/Os would hold decent F/O seats and ATL could be reduced or the assets reassigned to other SWA bases.

 

[UALX727]

JBall, sorry to hear that.....I've had a lot of SWA guys on my jumpseat, mainly ATL-LAS mostly...nothing but good conversations with them. It really says a lot about the guy if they are personally taking this out on you. No class whatsoever. If you decide to....PM me the flight and date and I will see that it gets taken care of.

 

[madjack]

A ratio after 1993 would be basically relative seniority after 1993 (most AAI pilots were hired after 2001)...I thought you said RS was windfall for AAI?...this is all moot of course, we have an AIP to vote or not vote on then off to the judges if one/both groups vote it down (assuming it gets out of the AAI MEC), our union says it will go straight to arby given the short timeline of the PA...some argue that there is time for more negotiations but that is not what SWAPA is saying...

 

[dicko]

The core problem is that if the AIP passes, you're going to have that kind of bitterness infecting your flight decks for DECADES. Is that what you really want?

I disagree. When it's done .... It's done. We'll move on.

The FO needs to have a little non punitive chat with Pro Standards. If he's that pissed off or that immature then this stuff is obviously affecting his performance. More than most.

 

[Fubijaakr]

A ratio after 1993 would be basically relative seniority after 1993 (most AAI pilots were hired after 2001...

Perhaps, but AAI's orginal position (as I understand it) was relative position. That would have been a huge windfall for AAI guys and totally unacceptable.

Some form of post-'93 ratio is a much fairer way to go for all concerned. You could adjust the ratio to account for year hired. For instance, take all the '94 hires at both companies and ratio them together. Then the '95s. Then the '96s.

Of course that would create a bulge in years where one or the other companies didn't hire. A straight post '93 ratio would prevent that.

If this AIP gets voted down, I think you'll see something along those lines from the arbitrator. The pay raise issue probably won't play because comparing this merger to the Shuttle America fiasco is apples to oranges.

 

[retired guy]

I disagree. When it's done .... It's done. We'll move on.


I`m gonna have to disagree with you on this. I wish both sides the best of luck with your senority list, but I`ve been through three of these fights and I can tell you that it is never over. I`ve seen and heard of everything from mild disagreements to fights in the parking lot. It`s just the way things are and will be.

 

[waveflyer]

If I was a stapled AAI FO I would be pissed, but I am a 11 year SWA FO with junior DOH AAI CPs standing to make 60-70K more than I will for many years to come...welcome to the airline business...

Really? You'd be pissed? So Our bottom FO's accomplishment and the years they took achieving it vs isn't worth a few years of seniority? that much younger group ought to be senior to us for the rest of our CAREER? We should now retire a 1000#'s junior than what we were going to bc GK decided to buy a smaller younger carrier?

Sorry- but you call it "stapling" and your buying into their alpa propaganda that they're somehow getting screwed bc short term they might be junior. Remember - they are still going to RETIRE at the top- and with 650 at the bottom, there's still 1000#'s going on top of CJ and probably 7-800 above me- about half of which are younger than our guys and so will ALWAYS be senior.

I'm thinking about voting no- just bc of your situation MJ- I don't think it's right that junior capts there will be making a lot more-
But maybe you could have our back too. At least not buy into the ALPA repeat often propaganda.

 

[General Lee]

I know this has already been discussed but because of the experience I had yesterday, I felt it needed to be readdressed. Long story short, I was nonreving on Airtran and as always, I let the cockpit crew know I was there. The captain was a great guy and gave me a warm welcome. The FO, was completely immature and decided to take the low road. He refused to shake my hand and turned around in a huff only to start bitching about the SLI proposal loud enough that I, as well as the paying customers, could hear it in the PAX cabin.

I understand he feels pretty insulted by the AIP but he has to know that I had nothing to do with it. I am not even sure I am going to vote for it. I know he is frustrated with the process but to be unprofessional toward a fellow pilot and act like a baby is poor form. He can direct his anger upward at those who made this happen but he has to realize regular line swine like me are along for the ride just like him, only armed with a vote if it even comes to it.

I feel certain we have some on our side that need to be policed as well. Trust me, I will be glad to help with that any way I can. However, for those of us that commute, please keep is professional, I just want to get to work like I always have.

Sincerely,
jball2
An ATL commuter

I know how you can help him, vote NO and send it back to the negotiators. You would feel the same way if you were on the other side.


Bye Bye---General Lee

 

[General Lee]

I disagree. When it's done .... It's done. We'll move on.

The FO needs to have a little non punitive chat with Pro Standards. If he's that pissed off or that immature then this stuff is obviously affecting his performance. More than most.

No way. Ask how the Green book and Red Book guys think since that NWA merger 20 years ago. There are still confrontations between those groups, even during the latest merger. If you don't treat both sides fairly, there will be animosity. Why wasn't there a joint contract done first at SWA/Airtran? Why hold the pay over the Airtran guys' heads? That is crazy, and leaves bitter feelings. I hope it works out to be fair for everyone, and equal pay comes sooner than later.


Bye Bye---General Lee

 

[IslandDriver]

I jumped BWI to BOS last week on AAI. We had a 30 minute gate hold so I went up front to say hello. I started in on the different way we fly the same plane...was on a 73....kept it all light and "aviation" related...ended up talking for like 45 minutes...we all had fun exchanging stories...never really talked about the SLI kept it fun and proffesional...two nice guys...and I am junior at SWA....why waste hate and anger over something we only have 1 vote over. When it is all done we will all have to just get over it and enjoy our jobs...it couldalways be worse.

 

[madjack]

wave,

no offense but stapling 650 AAI FOs seems not fair and equitable...just as much so as having a 2005-6 AAI CP making more than I do as an 11 year SWA FO for the next 9 years...we all have our opinion and it won't matter bc the AAI MEC will never let this get to a vote...

 

[dicko]

I disagree. When it's done .... It's done. We'll move on.


I`m gonna have to disagree with you on this. I wish both sides the best of luck with your senority list, but I`ve been through three of these fights and I can tell you that it is never over. I`ve seen and heard of everything from mild disagreements to fights in the parking lot. It`s just the way things are and will be.

Maybe you're right. I'll never ignore history, nor will I ignore experience. I can only tell you how I'll behave.

Having said that; An interesting and amusing anecdote:

One of our pilots had the infamous SWA pilot 'SundownerS3' on an AirTran jumpseat as he was traveling home to Florida. Despite his vitriol on this board, and his spite .... He spent the flight sleeping, drooling and talking about the fact he'd never be a Captain at SWA because he'd spent to long in the Navy and at JetBlue. He's actually quite normal and apparently comes across as a decent guy.

The AirTran Captain who carried him never mentioned that he knew who he was. They shook hands and went on their way.