Anderson to align capacity with demand

[JoeMerchant]

Fins,

There is much truth in what Ford speaks in concept, unfortunately he has wrapped his arguments in tactics so objectionable to mainline pilots (DOH integration, Scope in all Ejets to Feed, sue DALPA again) that not only are his relevant points lost, they are used as ammunition against more reasoned approaches to solving Scope issues by association to RJDC.

Let's talk about the "tactics" you find "objectionable".

1. DOH integration: That is flat out lie perpetuated by the DALPA MEC to rally the troops against the original PID. DOH was never part of the proposed PID and is not part of the ALPA merger policy.

2. Scope in all Ejets to feed: It only makes sense to have fleets that are common on the same certificate. It doesn't make sense to have one part of a fleet on one certificate while the other part of the fleet is on another certificate. Either put everything on one certificate, or have each fleet together on the same certificates.....Only way it makes sense from a training standpoint.

3. DALPA was never sued. ALPA was sued because they were not fairly representing the ASA and CMR pilots. ALPA is the legal entity and they represent BOTH of us and have to do so FAIRLY....Not really possible under the current set up.

 

[Fly4hire]

2. Scope in all Ejets to feed: It only makes sense to have fleets that are common on the same certificate. It doesn't make sense to have one part of a fleet on one certificate while the other part of the fleet is on another certificate. Either put everything on one certificate, or have each fleet together on the same certificates.....Only way it makes sense from a training standpoint.

OK, not DOH, but it was not a staple either - RJDC wanted an a full credit integration that would but CMR pilots ahead of many DAL pilots - yes or no?

For discussion purposes regarding types I agree, however if you are proposing that the entire E-Series up to 110 seats and CRJ up to 100 be flown by the feeds, no. If you are in favor of them all being flown by the mainline we might have some common ground.

Where do you and RJDC stand on that?

 

[Browntothebone]

OK, not DOH, but it was not a staple either - RJDC wanted an a full credit integration that would but CMR pilots ahead of many DAL pilots - yes or no?

For discussion purposes regarding types I agree, however if you are proposing that the entire E-Series up to 110 seats and CRJ up to 100 be flown by the feeds, no. If you are in favor of them all being flown by the mainline we might have some common ground.

Where do you and RJDC stand on that?

What if DAL got their old pay rates back in exchange for DCI flying larger RJs? Would you then be in favor of DCI flying large RJs?

 

[FDJ2]

1. DOH integration: That is flat out lie perpetuated by the DALPA MEC to rally the troops against the original PID. DOH was never part of the proposed PID and is not part of the ALPA merger policy.

Anything other than a staple is a seniority grab. You honestly don't believe you should end up senior to anyone on the DAL list do you?

2. Scope in all Ejets to feed: It only makes sense to have fleets that are common on the same certificate. It doesn't make sense to have one part of a fleet on one certificate while the other part of the fleet is on another certificate. Either put everything on one certificate, or have each fleet together on the same certificates.....Only way it makes sense from a training standpoint.

That's for us to work out with our employer. We'll negotiate our scope with DAL, you negotiate yours with ASA. We'll offer you preferential hiring if you get furloughed or possibly a flow through can be worked out.

3. DALPA was never sued. ALPA was sued because they were not fairly representing the ASA and CMR pilots. ALPA is the legal entity and they represent BOTH of us and have to do so FAIRLY....Not really possible under the current set up.

This is particularly funny. You had every opportunity to bring a DFR case against ALPA, You made a claim, got a judge to agree that he would hear it, he ordered that you create a class, he allowed discovery, but after endless discovery and many baseless accusations from the RJDC, when it was time to put up or shut up the RJDC threw in the towel, because at the end of the day the entire allegation lacked merit.

 

[~~~^~~~]

OK, not DOH, but it was not a staple either - RJDC wanted an a full credit integration that would but CMR pilots ahead of many DAL pilots - yes or no?

Where do you and RJDC stand on that?

When making presentations on behalf of the organizations, Dan Ford often explained to DCI pilots that typical mergers respected status quo... by equipment type, or paycheck, that would be a staple of DCI. That's a quote, heard it with my own ears on numerous occasions.

He also would point out that it was inappropriate to present a seniority list methodology other than what was contained in ALPA's Constitution, Bylaws and Administrative procedures. He was always pressed to address the SLI issue and I have a copy of his presentation on a bidding model which effectively was a DOH merger of ASA and Comair, which was then stapled below Delta. There were fences to protect CDI pilots from flowbacks to equipment already on their property and DOH for BENEFITS, like passes and longevity pay (if my memory is correct on the details).

A very important distinction to make is that when ALPA and Delta opened the door (briefly) to tripartied negotiations Dan correctly deferred to the pilots actually elected to represent ASA and Comair pilots. The Reps did not do what Dan wanted them to do (and things went sideways fast) but I was impressed with the humility and respect for ALPA's representative structure that Dan Ford did not covet power. When he got the door open, he stepped aside and let the elected Reps do what they were elected to do (although the politicians quickly squandered the opportunity to work together by playing type A personality political brinksmanship - IMHO).

The RJDC no longer exists. The corporation has been dissolved with the conclusions of their activities.

Joe's opinions are nothing more than Joe's opinions. He does not speak on behalf of the RJDC and never has. As far as I know, none of the RJDC leadership actually posts anywhere other than their web site. Just like anyone else's opinions (including mine) they are worth what you pay for them, unless they resonate with what you know to be true and correct.

Dan Ford is willing to discuss his take on matters and can be contacted through his web site, if you are curious about his positions on things.

 

[FDJ2]

When making presentations on behalf of the organizations, Dan Ford often explained to DCI pilots that typical mergers respected status quo... by equipment type, or paycheck, that would be a staple of DCI. That's a quote, heard it with my own ears on numerous occasions.

Then Dan Ford wasn't being truthful. I CRJ captain could claim his w-2 was more than a 727 FE on probation. Also, not all integrations are status category ratios and even those that are can vary in what is an equivalent category. Even if you were to have a status category ratio, captains from smaller gauge aircraft can be senior to first officers in larger aircraft. To summarize, Dan is full of it if he said that. he was seeking other than a staple and so were the ASA/CMR MECs.

He also would point out that it was inappropriate to present a seniority list methodology other than what was contained in ALPA's Constitution, Bylaws and Administrative procedures.

That is also total BS. The ALPA merger policy preamble allows for pre-nups, or following a different process by mutual consent. The ASA/CMR pilots for example agreed on DOH, yet no offer came from ASA/CMR to be stapled. Furthermore, Dan Fords lawsuit sought to abrogate the scope protections of another pilot groups CBA. You can't get much lower than that.

 

[jetjockey#1]

What if DAL got their old pay rates back in exchange for DCI flying larger RJs? Would you then be in favor of DCI flying large RJs?

NO.

DAL planes should be flown by DAL pilots. I know it must be hard for somebody like you to understand, but that's what, we, DAL pilots are pushing for. There is more than a payrate at stake here at DAL, way too complicated for you. What do you care anyway?

 

[xray678]

Let's talk about the "tactics" you find "objectionable".

1. DOH integration: That is flat out lie perpetuated by the DALPA MEC to rally the troops against the original PID. DOH was never part of the proposed PID and is not part of the ALPA merger policy.

The Delta MEC did not need to lie about a DOH integration. There were enough CMR/ASA pilots running around saying they wanted DOH that the Delta MEC never had to say a word.

 

[701EV]

xray678,

Do you think there was any chance on God's green earth that the ASA/Comair pilot's were going to get DOH.

If any Delta pilot thought that was going to happen they need a new their head examined!

Also, if you would have put ASA/Comiar pilot's on the bottom of the list in 2000 and tightened up scope. Their would not be 10 DCI carriers doing Delta's flying.

701EV

 

[acarpe3448]

xray678,

Do you think there was any chance on God's green earth that the ASA/Comair pilot's were going to get DOH.

If any Delta pilot thought that was going to happen they need a new their head examined!

Also, if you would have put ASA/Comiar pilot's on the bottom of the list in 2000 and tightened up scope. Their would not be 10 DCI carriers doing Delta's flying.

701EV

The RJDC sucks, they lost. End of story! Move on already!!

 

[701EV]

carpe

Thats your responce?

Your reason their are 10 DCI carriers doing over 50% of Delta Flying.

Also I didn't say one thing about the RJDC!

701EV

 

[michael707767]

I don't know any Delta pilots who thought ASA and CMR would get DOH. But I do know a lot thought they might do better than a staple, and that was not acceptable. If the ASA and CMR pilots had come to DALPA with a deal that included a staple, I think we may well have one list now. But the senior pilots at ASA and CMR knew darn well they would go for more than that. Way more than that.

 

[~~~^~~~]

My question is, did Dan Ford, the RJDC, or some crew room big mouth, control Delta MEC policy, or negotiations? Did they somehow force the outcome of votes, September 11th, Leo Mullins and Michelle Burns negligent management of the company, or bankruptcy?

While so many of the Flight Info cognoscenti stab their pitchforks into straw men, Delta flying continues to be outsourced. Scope violations continue to be negotiated, longevity is lost and careers stagnate.

Does it matter who has the right answer?

 

[ACL65PILOT]

I still think that we need to go after all of our branded flying. We need to bring all DCI pilots on board. There needs to be a prenuptial with these carriers that a staple would be the integration method. If not, we will be going back and forth for the rest of our careers.

 

[FBN0223]

I still think that we need to go after all of our branded flying. We need to bring all DCI pilots on board. There needs to be a prenuptial with these carriers that a staple would be the integration method. If not, we will be going back and forth for the rest of our careers.

Very true. But anything but a "big staple" is not negotiable. One way to bring DCI carriers on board is to let DOH dictate seniority among the DCI carriers. Then, that 'Master DCI Seniority List' could be stapled below the most junior Delta pilot.

 

[Schwanker]

Very true. But anything but a "big staple" is not negotiable. One way to bring DCI carriers on board is to let DOH dictate seniority among the DCI carriers. Then, that 'Master DCI Seniority List' could be stapled below the most junior Delta pilot.

That would be completely unfair to Compass. They already have the best flow-up potential and equipment. The flowback is their greatest threat, but the associated costs could make this unlikely.

Schwanker

 

[ACL65PILOT]

That is why CPS should be stapled first.

 

[FDJ2]

That is why CPS should be stapled first.

CPZ should go first, but for many of the other DCI carriers you are assuming a merger with DAL. DAL can not, for example, go to Skywest and say, BTW, we've just negotiated a PWA with the DAL pilots and we've decided that we're taking your pilots. The non wholly owned carriers are independent of DAL. DAL should not, and would agree to acquire the non wholly owned carriers for the sole purpose of putting these pilots on our list.

OTOH, it could be negotiated that DAL will not renew or sign any new DCI contracts on 70 or 76 seat aircraft at DCI. If the non wholly owned carriers furlough, preferential interviews could be offered.

 

[hockeypilot44]

These carriers were hired to undercut our wages and bring us down. Why would Delta voluntarily spend money to get rid of them?

 

[Cobraair75drvr]

Question for the Delta S boys. Have all of y'all been issued the new wings and hat brass? If so, why do I see guys wearing the old wings(blue on the widget)? Are they trying to make a statement or they have not received their new ones?