and the d-bag award of the week goes to ... ->

[Dornier 335]

this guy, LH Airbus Captain Georg Fongern, who has already criticized the two UPS pilots for having stayed in the air too long. The entire article can be read here in the Süddeutsche Zeitung (for our few German-readers ): Here is the excerpt that p!sses me off:

“Nach dem Ausbruch eines Brandes mehr als eine halbe Stunde in der Luft zu bleiben ist ziemlich lang", wundert sich Georg Fongern, selbst Airbus-Pilot bei Lufthansa und Vertreter der internationalen Pilotenvereinigung Ifalpa.

Denn nach dem Absturz von Swissair-Flug 111 im September 1998 infolge eines Cockpitbrandes hatte sich die Handlungsanweisung für Piloten bei Feuer und Rauch an ihrem Arbeitsplatz gründlich geändert. "Wenn es eine Landemöglichkeit gibt, und die hatten die UPS-Piloten, kümmert man sich nicht um die Ursache des Feuers, sondern sieht zu, dass man so schnell wie möglich runterkommt", so Fongern.

Translated:

“To stay airborne for more than 30 minutes after the fire was first noticed is a pretty long time” says Georg Fongern with astonishment, himself an Airbus pilot with Lufthansa and representative of the international airline pilot's association IFALPA.

After the crash of Swissair flight 111 in September 1998 which has been caused by cockpit fire, pilot procedures regarding fire and smoke in the cockpit had been fundamentally changed. “If there was a landing opportunity, which the UPS pilots had, then one doesn't care about the cause of the fire, but lands the plane as soon as possible” according to Fongern.

So Captain Fongern already blames the UPS pilots (partly) for the crash and their deaths. This (typical – I am afraid to say) arrogant attitude that exists in many EU legacy carriers really makes my blood boil. I hope someone from UPS Germany reads this and shuts this guy up (or at least writes a letter to the editor) before we get the official NTSB/GCAA accident report.

This reminds me of the arrogant statement made by Niki Lauda in die Zeit towards Jeff Skiles publicly saying that he was totally inexperienced.

Any UPS pilots here who can forward this?

 

[Whistlin' Dan]

This reminds me of the arrogant statement made by Niki Lauda in die Zeit towards Jeff Skiles publicly saying that he was totally inexperienced.

You can't believe anything Niki Lauda says. The guy's only got one ear, so he only knows half the story.

 

[Kruger Stellman]

“To stay airborne for more than 30 minutes after the fire was first noticed is a pretty long time” says Georg Fongern with astonishment, himself an Airbus pilot with Lufthansa and representative of the international airline pilot's association IFALPA.

After the crash of Swissair flight 111 in September 1998 which has been caused by cockpit fire, pilot procedures regarding fire and smoke in the cockpit had been fundamentally changed. “If there was a landing opportunity, which the UPS pilots had, then one doesn't care about the cause of the fire, but lands the plane as soon as possible” according to Fongern.

This Captain speaks the truth! However, until all of the facts are turned in, (And that will probably take 6 months to a year) the rest is all speculation.

Rule of thumb, got a fire, get er on the ground NOW!

 

[flyboyike]

this guy, LH Airbus Captain Georg Fongern, who has already criticized the two UPS pilots for having stayed in the air too long. The entire article can be read here in the Süddeutsche Zeitung (for our few German-readers ): Here is the excerpt that p!sses me off:

Translated:

“To stay airborne for more than 30 minutes after the fire was first noticed is a pretty long time” says Georg Fongern with astonishment, himself an Airbus pilot with Lufthansa and representative of the international airline pilot's association IFALPA.

After the crash of Swissair flight 111 in September 1998 which has been caused by cockpit fire, pilot procedures regarding fire and smoke in the cockpit had been fundamentally changed. “If there was a landing opportunity, which the UPS pilots had, then one doesn't care about the cause of the fire, but lands the plane as soon as possible” according to Fongern.

So Captain Fongern already blames the UPS pilots (partly) for the crash and their deaths. This (typical – I am afraid to say) arrogant attitude that exists in many EU legacy carriers really makes my blood boil. I hope someone from UPS Germany reads this and shuts this guy up (or at least writes a letter to the editor) before we get the official NTSB/GCAA accident report.

This reminds me of the arrogant statement made by Niki Lauda in die Zeit towards Jeff Skiles publicly saying that he was totally inexperienced.

Any UPS pilots here who can forward this?

It's hard to tell what the tone of Capt Fongern's statements was or even if he is being quoted correctly (the media, you know, never screw up, do they?). He may have just been expressing surprise at the length of time in question and articulating the procedures in general.

As for Nikki, well, I trust him about driving Ferraris.

 

[CCDiscoB]

How close did they get to Qatar or Bahrain? My understanding is they were talking to Bahrain. Heard this from a crew on the gnd at IUD that heard it all go down. 744 doesn't have "closest airports" like the MD11 does.

 

[filejw]

How close did they get to Qatar or Bahrain? My understanding is they were talking to Bahrain. Heard this from a crew on the gnd at IUD that heard it all go down. 744 doesn't have "closest airports" like the MD11 does.

What ? Must be an operator thing because most folks do have closets suitable airport, especially for a fire.

 

[tubineotter]

15 mins is the best u can expect from fire. get her on the ground NOW.

 

[Dornier 335]

In all honesty, what pilot would not put the aircraft down asap? Do you really think the UPS pilots took their sweet time to mess around?

 

[Rick1128]

In all honesty, what pilot would not put the aircraft down asap? Do you really think the UPS pilots took their sweet time to mess around?

You have to be careful about hurrying to land an aircraft. A lot of emergencies turned into crashes because the crew rushed things. A present we don't know what was going on in the cockpit, so until we do, all we are doing a speculating.

A couple of thoughts. First it's a 2 man crew. In an emergency workloads increase exponentially. So there is the possibility of crew overload. It is likely they reverted to their training and were running the emergency checklist. And since lawyers have the final word on checklists, it was probably a long and complicated b***h. And you would be surprised how time flies when you are dealing with an emergency.

 

[AKAAB]

What ? Must be an operator thing because most folks do have closets suitable airport, especially for a fire.

We don't. You can be flying over a 10,000ft strip of military concrete and it won't show up on our system.

 

[Dornier 335]

You have to be careful about hurrying to land an aircraft. A lot of emergencies turned into crashes because the crew rushed things. A present we don't know what was going on in the cockpit, so until we do, all we are doing a speculating.

My point exactly. That's why I am annoyed with Captain Fongern, who has already publicly pointed the finger at the UPS crew.

 

[SIG600]

How close did they get to Qatar or Bahrain? My understanding is they were talking to Bahrain. Heard this from a crew on the gnd at IUD that heard it all go down. 744 doesn't have "closest airports" like the MD11 does.

Yeah, Monday morning quarterbacking is unprofessional... so I have to think there was a reason they passed up Sha Ikisia (however you spell it), Bahrain, Doha, Al Dhafra, and Abu Dhabi. Maybe they thought the fire was under control. Who knows... but they were so confident in their decision they bet their lives on it. Sadly, it didn't work out.

 

[brownie]

Aren't lufthansa guys the same airline that took thier sweet time and fly the full app in to saudi when thier md11 was on fire and crashed and burned that md11 on landing 3 months ago?. I wonder what this goof ball capt has to say about thier elite airline trng.

 

[Dornier 335]

I wonder what this goof ball capt has to say about thier elite airline trng.

Being familiar with the German culture and language, the answer is simple: We Yanks are just a bunch of dumb cowboys that don't know what we are doing. LH is the best. Period. Don't even dare to question.

The Brits (incl. Cathay Pacific) think the same. It's the "my sh!t doesn't stink" attitude and as a matter of fact they invented flying. LH pilots feel quite elite because the selection process is quite hard (DLR selection). Being familiar with their (IMHO useless) selection test, I am still amazed at some of their incident fiascos, where common sense seemingly had departed. But again, who am I (or YOU reading this) questioning their perfect airline?

brownie, why don't you pass this along to the IPA? I am sure they appreciate Mr. "LH Perfect Pilot" questioning the UPS pilots performance (before knowing all the facts).

 

[brownie]

Being familiar with the German culture and language, the answer is simple: We Yanks are just a bunch of dumb cowboys that don't know what we are doing. LH is the best. Period. Don't even dare to question.

The Brits (incl. Cathay Pacific) think the same. It's the "my sh!t doesn't stink" attitude and as a matter of fact they invented flying. LH pilots feel quite elite because the selection process is quite hard (DLR selection). Being familiar with their (IMHO useless) selection test, I am still amazed at some of their incident fiascos, where common sense seemingly had departed. But again, who am I (or YOU reading this) questioning their perfect airline?

brownie, why don't you pass this along to the IPA? I am sure they appreciate Mr. "LH Perfect Pilot" questioning the UPS pilots performance (before knowing all the facts).

I will but for now the IPA doesn't want the membership to post any pic's or article regarding this matter since this was the wishes of capt's and fo's family until all the facts are out and the pilots are respectfully back in the states to rejoin thier family members. I will post this despicable article the first chance i get. Thanx for looking out after this group of fine people.

 

[Dornier 335]

brownie, pm me if you need more info.

 

[brownie]

brownie, pm me if you need more info.

I defenetly will. Thanx a bunch.

 

[ual321]

Welcome back, Doug and Matt.