An idea to begin to turn the tide on pilot pay

[Delville]

Like all of you, I am disgusted by the degree to which pilot pay has dropped over the last several years. Many of us have worked very hard for a very long time only to have the brass ring slip out of our fingers. We have passed up other opportunities, we have sacrificed time, money, and emotion to go down this path.

We are all aware of the many reasons why pilots should be paid much more than we currently are. However, the flying public is not aware of how much our pay has been slashed nor do they likely care very much right now how much it has fallen.

I think that one of the best moves we, as a profession, could undertake at this point is to begin a public awareness campaign. I remember recently that there were advertisements highlighting the job the air traffic controllers perform and how much responsibility is in their hands. I think pilots could do something similar.

To begin with, a stastically significant portion of the flying public is scared of flying. We could commission a series of "public service"-type commercials that highlight the effect the low pay is having on the quality of pilots in the profession and perhaps play on the public's fears a bit.

I'm not an advertising specialist, but I'm sure a good advertising company could create some very effective commericals that imply air safety is at risk. They could highlight any of a variety of factors: sound bites from interviews with good, highly qualified pilots opting to leave the profession, good pilots who stay in the profession and are distracted by financial concerns, lower-quality individuals deciding to enter the career field, pilots becoming fatigued as they work more for less pay. They could cite the reason good pilots are leaving by posing questions like why would anyone work for $XX,XXX when they can make the same at home not missing holidays, birthdays, soccer games, etc. They could ask why would anyone work for $XX,XXX when the average airline pilot has to start over from the bottom X number of times in their career. Etc. Etc. I'm sure the advertising people could come up with many ideas.

As we all know the flying public is who makes or breaks this industry. If they think it doesn't matter how much pilots are paid and under what conditions they work, then we're in for more of the same. If we can begin to change their minds, however, that there is some degree of correlation between pilot pay and air safety, then maybe we can begin to change Joe Traveler's idea of what air travel should cost.

 

[furlough-boy]

I think the flying public could care less what pilots make until an accident is directly linked to lack of experience.

You're not going to get any public sympathy by broadcasting that poor Mr. UAL/DAL/NWA Captain had to go from 200K a year to 130K. Boo Hoo

Maybe you Republican morons out there need to consider voting for someone that doesn't think labor is just another cost to be outsourced or beaten down to the lowest level possible.

 

[Bringupthebird]

It would be cheaper for every CFI to simply vow not to recommend any commercial students and the supply of pilots would quickly dry up, driving the pay up as well.

 

[ePilot22]

It would be cheaper for every CFI to simply vow not to recommend any commercial students and the supply of pilots would quickly dry up, driving the pay up as well.

Why don't you retire earlier and let some new kids play on the block instead!




eP.

 

[Occam's Razor]

I think the flying public could care less what pilots make until an accident is directly linked to lack of experience.

You're not going to get any public sympathy by broadcasting that poor Mr. UAL/DAL/NWA Captain had to go from 200K a year to 130K. Boo Hoo

You got it! We're a consumer culture now. We get upset at paycuts...then shop at Wal-Mart. Go to any internet travel site and try to screen air travel by "Best Pilots" or "Happiest Crew".

Can't?

Surprise!

As long as airliners aren't plummeting weekly into Lake Michigan, Mr. & Mrs. America aren't gonna care how much you make. If it's more than them...you're "overpaid". If it's less than them..."tough luck".

Maybe you Republican morons out there need to consider voting for someone that doesn't think labor is just another cost to be outsourced or beaten down to the lowest level possible.

Are you crazy!!? If we elect people who treat Labor and pilots like trusted professionals, Al Qaeda wins! Besides, gay marriage is much more important than your stupid career! Sack up!

 

[100LL... Again!]

Play them the CVR from a certain recent 'mishap' as part of the ad, and tell them that many very inexperienced people are attempting to buy their way into the cockpit. That might make a point, too.

Dude.

 

[Phaedrus]

As the Guiness guy says: Brilliant! Same results as the guys in the commercial however.

 

[Blacktop]

The pay debate is way more simple than people will admit. The bottom line is all about supply and demand. If demand is high and supply is short then you can expect higher pay. If there are 100 qualified guys in line to take your job then why should someone pay you more. Now you can argue that the people in line are not as qualified. However, if your airline is not losing customers because of inexperienced pilots then the pilots are apparently qualified enough, at least from a fiscal viewpoint. If there is a crash due to inexperience then the airline can still keep hiring less qualified pilots until they start losing customers, which never happens in a buisness that is completely based on the lowest priced ticket. Let's face it, flying is an awesome job and people do it because it's fun. The only way to reduce the huge surplus of pilots is to make it a less desirable career or make the road to the majors too difficult for the average pilot to endur. Like it or not, it doesn't look like it will change anytime soon.

 

[Delville]

The pay debate is way more simple than people will admit. The bottom line is all about supply and demand.

Thank you, Allen Greenspan.

Supply and demand is a huge part of the equation and contributes to why we are paid less today than we were some years ago. I'm not even trying to make the point that pilot compensation is related to air safety at all. I'm just making the point that it might be a worthwhile endeavor for us, as a labor group, to influence the perceived value of airlines with higher pilot pay scales. If people begin to think that airlines with more highly paid pilots might be safer, then that might be a good thing for pilots overall. I won't even attempt to get into the middle of a debate on whether or not pilot pay actually does impact flight safety. I'm simply saying that allowing a flying public which is already jittery about air travel to think there is merit in more highly paid pilots; well, that might valuable for all of us who have made this a career.

Let's face it, flying is an awesome job and people do it because it's fun.

Oh, and as an aside, this statement makes me wonder if 1) you're just throwing out flame bait, 2) maybe you're some college kid or fairly new pilot who hasn't been around too long and made up the quals on your profile, 3) you're an ideal candidate to scab at the next airline that goes on strike, or 4) you're a tool in your squadron and you'll be one in the airlines as well.



​

 

[spiffomatic]

I'm no free market expert, but I think supply/demand plays a large role here. Public perception of customer service and safety play another significant role. I don't know if it's been really tried before, but I really think that a push for legitimate and more significant qualifications for sitting in the right or left seat of a jet could help. It's certainly not a cakewalk to become a medical doctor - their hard work and perseverance is eventually well compensated (well, maybe not after malpractice insurance). Having seen the extreme range of competence of newly minted FOs at various regionals, you could mount a pretty strong argument for higher standards than the current requirements for the commercial and instrument ratings - a person can knock those out in a few months, and then be entirely entrusted with the lives of 90 pax (think mesa crj900) if the Captain becomes incapacitated. Possibly a sub-1000 hour wonderpilot with 5 hours of actual cruising around in icing trying to land at the nearest airport and having to deal with the choice of windshear alerts at one, an NDB approach to mins at another and a little 3000' strip also nearby. Oh, the humanity! People will die. Unlikely? Sure. Possible? Of course. Point being - make the qualifications for sitting in the right and left seat of 121 aircraft have some significant weight. Perhaps tie it to flight hours, experience or tougher tests, or possibly increase requirements based on number of pax. Would this fly? Probably not. What would ALPA's stance be on it? Would the insurance companies and their premiums be a factor. Either way I do know the general public would think twice before flying with some people I've seen, or after hearing the pinnacle tapes. Just some food for thought.

 

[Blacktop]

Not sure why your suprised that I think flying is awesome or that my comments some how make me a new pilot? I am only trying to view the problem without letting my emotions skew reality. I was only trying to make the case that if you can't get someone to pay you what you think your worth, then you must not be worth it. After all, the value of something is only determined when it is sold. My point does not in anyway address what a pilot should be worth. I think everyone in this field knows that a pilots skills should be compensated much higher than the current scales. Even so, that fact doen't change reality.

I agree completely that changing the customers viewpoint on airline safety would be effective.

Not a chance you will ever see me scabbing.

 

[Bill Nelson]

Here is an idea, be part of the team. Stop taxing around like your lost, refusing shortcuts, throwing the gear out 40 miles out etc. because you get paid by the minute. That does nothing but cost you!

Get on board with your company's plan. Pilot pay is directly related to the companies bottom line. SWA pilots are on board and the are rewarded for it. I believe they are the highest paid in the industry and they are getting an additin 6% raise in Sept. This is a direct result of them helping the company and the company reciprocating.

 

[Jim Smyth]

Well they say opinions are like a$$holes and everyone has one! So here goes. I have been making a living in aviation for the last 27 years. I have 13 more to go so basically I dont see much different happening for me from now until then. You younger guys may be able to make some difficult changes but you will have to stick together and think long term!

The problem you have is that most Pilots think that since they have alot of responsibility and make some decent wages that they are REAL smart. I have news for ya. Most are just average Joe's and most arnt the best money managers out there. The longer you are in this business the more you will realize this.

Theres an old saying that goes "if you want to retire a wealty airline Captain you have to do 2 things".

1. Keep your orginal wife. Sometimes not the easiest thing to do since absence doesnt always make the heart grow fonder!

2. If a Pilot comes to you with a get rich quick scheme, DONT give him any money!

With that being said you have to stand back and look at where we have come from. You dont see other professionals like Doctors/Laywers/Tradesman etc working for a company for 10-30 years. Then your company goes out of business and you get stuck back at the bottom pay scale and bottom of the senority! We as a collective group really blew this one! We dont give credit for the experiance we have obtained throughout our career.

ALPA many years ago tryed to start a national senority list. It didnt go through and here we go, fast forward 20 years and the industry is in the proverbial Toliet again with no protection for our kind from the lousy decesions that our management may make or when the Carl Icanns come a knockin!

We should have a standard pay structure per airplane in place. Doesnt matter if you fly for brand X or brand Y. Fly a 757 in the left seat and the pay per hour is the same. Make the airlines budget that into the ticket cost or the plane doesnt move.

We also need to make changes that benefit everyone that flies. Look at the age 60 issue. Very heated from whichever side of the fence you are on but it cant be argued too much that an upward change wouldnt benefit everyone in the long term. Some will take a hit but the young guys that dont want it changed will soon be in the same position in twenty years and by then, you wont have a pension, wont have any social security, wont have any medicare and average life expectancy will be 80+ years old. Sound appealing? Better plan ahead now!

 

[Delville]

With that being said you have to stand back and look at where we have come from. You dont see other professionals like Doctors/Laywers/Tradesman etc working for a company for 10-30 years. Then your company goes out of business and you get stuck back at the bottom pay scale and bottom of the senority! We as a collective group really blew this one! We dont give credit for the experiance we have obtained throughout our career.

Jim, I didn't intend for this thread to be about the steps I think would really make a big difference in our career field, but since you brought it up... I definitely think that the way we, as pilots, have set up our seniority system is by far, without a doubt, the biggest drag on our collective pay scales. You hit the nail on the head. We blew it big time! Our seniority system is an airline exec's wet dream.

Do doctors/lawyers/tradesmen, etc pin their fortunes to the fate of a single company just so they can enjoy the golden benefits of some nice perks (seniority) at their company? No, because not doing so allows them to enjoy some even more valuable perks like decent pay, negotiating leverage, and job portability. We, as pilots, often complain that airline managers are stupid. I'll tell you what, even airline managers aren't stupid enough to agree to an arrangement that if their company goes under they have to start over from the bottom. But pilots are. Getting hired by airline that is going to be around in great shape for 30-40 years is much more a matter of luck than anything else. I don't want my airline career to ride on luck.

In all fairness, the guys who are furloughed now at American, United, Delta, etc made pretty respectable decisions when they were hired at their respective companies. Should they and their families have to start completely over or wait years without income from their respective airline to be hired back simply because they weren't as lucky as someone who got hired by Southwest in 1998? It could happen to any of us. There truly, truly needs to be a better seniority system. The one we have now may have worked well during the era of regulation. However, it's not the era of regulation anymore. We're still hamstrung with an outdated, broken system that, in the end, hurts all of us.

 

[Rez O. Lewshun]

It has nothing to do with supply and demand.....

It has everything to do with how much money is your company making and how much of that can you negotiate.

 

[YourPilotFriend]

Actually, SWA is the airline that could save the profession, if it finally takes on an international fleet and becomes a real airline and pays pilots its wage scale.........

 

[Bringupthebird]

It has nothing to do with supply and demand.....

It has everything to do with how much money is your company making and how much of that can you negotiate.

If the company you work for decides to set it's price first and then see if it can make any money second, and when it finds it can't, it decides to take any shortfall out of employee payroll and try again, I would say there is an oversupply of pilots willing to work too cheap.

 

[CA1900]

I think the problem is that pilots don't have the confidence they need to stand up to their management. Here's a video that I think will help:

Pennies

 

[Uppercrust]

No doubt concessions are still on the way in. I would expect Airtran to be the next in line. Rumor has it they will take a 15% cut. Sucks to be them. At least it sucks to be Ty "Snug Fit" Webb.

 

[aerobaticspilot]

I think we need to stand up now or be on food stamps for the rest of lives. we need a industry wide strick. I happy delta and nwa are standing up to the suites. Mangement needs to take some pay cuts soon or there going to keep losing the good pilots to 135 positions

 

[llowwelll]

No doubt concessions are still on the way in. I would expect Airtran to be the next in line. Rumor has it they will take a 15% cut. Sucks to be them.

Uppercrust, please let us know exactly where you heard this rumor.

Here is the real scoop on AirTran for anyone that is interested: there is virtually no possibility that AirTran pilots will take concessions in our new contract. The most likely features of our new contract will be improved workrules and contract language, modest pay increases, CASS, and possibly some relief for pilots on medical insurance. I have heard this from several members of our various union committees.

 

[Master Shake]

I think the problem is that pilots don't have the confidence they need to stand up to their management. Here's a video that I think will help:

Pennies

"you ALL handle my ass pennies" Absolutely classic. Thanks man.

 

[pilotyip]

The rest of America thinks $100K/yr is a great salary, only on a pilot board would this number be scoffed at. My brother 30 years at GM, a Master's in business, a level 7, one level below a company car, he has never made over $100K, neither have I or 95% of the American workers. You will find little sympathy in the rest of America, after all this is a job that can be done by a high school graduate.

 

[GogglesPisano]

The rest of America thinks $100K/yr is a great salary, only on a pilot board would this number be scoffed at. My brother 30 years at GM, a Master's in business, a level 7, one level below a company car, he has never made over $100K, neither have I or 95% of the American workers. You will find little sympathy in the rest of America, after all this is a job that can be done by a high school graduate.

So you're of the "we should be happy with what we have," camp. Pilot compensation has eroded steadily over the years (the legacies now pay 1980's wages) while almost every other occupation has had steady increases in pay. Ten years from now -- when airline pilots average $50,000/yr -- will you still be happy? BTW, that reduction in income will affect corporate and 135 operators as well.

 

[Delville]

The rest of America thinks $100K/yr is a great salary, only on a pilot board would this number be scoffed at.

I'm sure $50K per year would look GREAT to a fast food burger flipper or to a customer service agent. $300K per year would be laughable for the CEO of a Fortune 500 company. However, what we're talking about is PILOT pay; not short-order cook pay or dentist pay or marketing analyst pay. Comparing our level of pay to what the average American makes is purely apples and oranges. And...I'm pretty sure it's not only on a pilot board that $100K would be scoffed at (think doctors, lawyers, investment bankers, etc).

after all this is a job that can be done by a high school graduate.

Yes, flying airplanes at a major airline is a job that can be done by a high school grad...after they've gone through all of the training, certification, and apprenticeship to get hired at a major airline; a process that takes at least several years. Likewise, a lawyer's duties can be performed by a high school grad as well...after they've gone through all of the training, certification, and apprenticeship to work at a respectable law firm; a process that takes also takes at least several years. You could say the same thing about many professions.

You will find little sympathy in the rest of America....

I wouldn't expect to find sympathy for anyone that makes more money than the average American laborer. I don't think we'll get anywhere by evoking sympathy from anyone. I do think, however, that it may be useful to attempt to evoke fear in the American flying public. Americans do not feel sorry for doctors or lawyers and how much money they make. However, they are willing to pay the high costs associated with doctors and lawyers because they FEAR that if they don't, there might be severe consequences as a result of incompetent work. I think it wouldn't be a bad thing for people to have the same fear regarding pilots.

 

[CaptainMark]

The rest of America thinks $100K/yr is a great salary, only on a pilot board would this number be scoffed at. My brother 30 years at GM, a Master's in business, a level 7, one level below a company car, he has never made over $100K, neither have I or 95% of the American workers. You will find little sympathy in the rest of America, after all this is a job that can be done by a high school graduate.

what a bunch of crap!!!! you CAN"T get in my seat with only a high school diploma...and does your level 7 brother get recertified every 6 months by the feds with the possibility of losing your ticket every time?...does he have the faa looking over his shoulder..does he have to take a medical every 6 months and PASS it...does he get an ekg every year in order to keep his job..does he land in 45kt gusts and dodge thunderstorms and land on snow covered runways where one slip up could end a career...and if i am not mistaken he can get the same job somewhere else at the same pay...can i..no..bottom of the list somewhere else.....we deserve so much more....let's all take some average americans on some of our flights..like an MD-11 crew doing a VOR approach into subicbay at night on the outskirts of a typhoon...you people crack me up...do something else for a living..you have no integrity or pride in your profession!!!!!....100grand is chump change!!!!

 

[RJP]

like an MD-11 crew doing a VOR approach into subicbay at night on the outskirts of a typhoon...

Is the MD-11 completely unautomated? Ooooh, a VOR approach, into Subic. That sounds terrifying. All those ladies in Angeles City must cringe at your 'there I was on the VOR' stories. :beer:

At least you've probably got Hugh Jorgan there to hang with though. Tell him he's missed on this site.

 

[capt. megadeth]

One of the captains I flew it recently, said it perfectly: "I don't give a dam what people think". (ok, wtf is with writing the word dam with an n and when you post, it comes up "dang". How stupid is that? Come on now!)

 

[flyin4pennies]

It's partly our fault!

When I interviewed at my past regional carrier the guys doing the interview were line captains. Unless something has changed or other regionals are different, it's still the same way.
Lets stop hiring these 500/50 pilots. If a pilot canadate dosen't have 2000/500 in the old logbook then no dice. Make these newbies fly boxes or instruct for a few more years and watch the pilot pool dry up. No more 8 month/ 0 hours to right seat in less than a year BS.

We CAN take this back!!!!

 

[climbhappy]

living inside a bottle.

.

To launch an ad campaign sounds great, but pilot pay is not a SOCIAL PROBLEM.