An idea to begin to turn the tide on pilot pay

[pilotyip]

Capt. Mark, I know about 10 pilots working for me who do not have college degrees, they could do your job any day of the week with a little training. Now of course we both know this is not possible because of the HR people at FedEx who maintain the purity of the breed. You are taking your job way too seriously, anyone with a certain level of skill, and desire could do your job. You knew what the job was when you came into the business, Medical, 6 mo. checks, etc. and ooh 45 kt x wind, TRW's such a dangerous job. At age 28, TT 1500 hrs I was flying a P-3 500 miles North of Iceland in freezing rain at 500' off the water at night was not dangerous or routine because I did not get paid like a FedEx pilot. And no 100K is not chump change in my book. I am still living my dream that started 58 yeas ago when I was five years old. You are extremely lucky, and the element of luck has much more to do with your position than your skill and desire.

 

[Apeman]

It's going to be tough to educate John Q Public when the other day at the Dr's office, the local Phoenix magazine did a salary survey, and quoted a Flight instructor as making $80,000 a year!

 

[Delville]

To launch an ad campaign sounds great, but pilot pay is not a SOCIAL PROBLEM.

I don't understand your point. Seriously. I'm not trying to be sarcastic. What are you attempting to say?

Capt. Mark, I know about 10 pilots working for me who do not have college degrees, they could do your job any day of the week with a little training.

Actually, I don't think they could do Capt Mark's job with only a "little" training. How long was you your Navy pilot training? Then, how long did it take you to upgrade to aircraft commander? How long did it take you to arrive at the point where your skills and judgement had been developed and seasoned to the point where it would have been morally responsible to have placed a couple of hundred people's lives under your purview? I know this: I wouldn't take a high school grad, give him/her a few months of training and job experience and then feel comfortable putting my family in the back with them. I'd honestly want a pilot up front with at least several years of experience, preferably more.

Now of course we both know this is not possible because of the HR people at FedEx who maintain the purity of the breed.

Right. The real reason FedEx requires a college degree from their pilots is that they are attempting to social engineer an uber-race of over-qualified and overpaid pilots. At FedEx, they're all about that.

It couldn't be that they've discovered over they years that pilots with college degrees have a certain level of intellectual development, ambition, reasoning skill, etc that they find appealing?

You are taking your job way too seriously, anyone with a certain level of skill, and desire could do your job.

True. It's just determining what that level of "skill" is and how much training, education, and certification it takes to arrive there. Again, the same can be said of doctors and lawyers. How much skill does the American public feel comfortable with having pilots flying them and their families around? Can we, as a labor group, influence that level?

And actually, to further address your point, NASA did launch a monkey into space aboard the Mercury capsule in 1961. The monkey received a "little" training beforehand and acquired a "certain level of skill" before the launch. Of course, the monkey had the aid of a certain level of automation. Good thing nothing went wrong! We could probably do the same with pilots; automation being what it is today. Would you feel comfortable putting your family in the back? More importantly, would the American public feel comfortable in the back of the monkey's airplane?

Chimpanzee Ham during preflight

You knew what the job was when you came into the business, Medical, 6 mo. checks, etc. and ooh 45 kt x wind, TRW's such a dangerous job.

Pilotyip, what does that have to with the price of tea in China? So, he knew about all of this before he entered the profession. Does the fact that he knew about it mean he should be paid less? Should doctors be paid less because they know ahead of time that they can be done in by a mapractice claim?

I think the point he was trying to make is that an airline career is one that is fraught with jeopardy situations and risk. An airline career can be over in an instant. Most other career fields do not carry that same degree of risk. If you ask me, he was saying that we should be well-compensated for assuming that risk. I agree.

At age 28, TT 1500 hrs I was flying a P-3 500 miles North of Iceland in freezing rain at 500' off the water at night was not dangerous or routine because I did not get paid like a FedEx pilot.

Huh? This statement does not make sense? Also, I don't know about the P-3 and what it's icing limitations are, but every aircraft I have flown so far has been prohibited from flying in freezing rain. What were the P-3's limitations?

And no 100K is not chump change in my book. I am still living my dream that started 58 yeas ago when I was five years old. You are extremely lucky, and the element of luck has much more to do with your position than your skill and desire.

I have to ask again, what does the fact that you are living your dream have to do with price of tea in China? We are talking about how much pilots could and should be paid and what we can do to influence that level. Does the fact that you are living your dream mean that you should be paid less? Wouldn't you like to be paid more? You're right, $100K is not chump change. But, $200K is more than $100K. If pilots can be paid $200K, is that a bad thing in your book? If we, as pilots, could do something to raise our average compensation level to $200K or even $300K, would you be opposed to that?

 

[Mugs]

What you are paid is a function of two things: The revenue you generate and what you can negotiate. The Fedex guys have good leverage in both areas. Pilotyip has probably never had a flying job that generated high revenues (like a Fedex pilot) and certainly never had the negotiating power either. Thus, he has never cracked the 100K a year mark. If Pilotyip's labor was able to generate substantially more revenue than it currently does, would he feel it was fair not being compensated to a higher degree? Most likely, Pilotyip can claim he is "satisfied" with what he makes now because his company probably doesn't generate the revenue required to pay him more anyway. So, it is what it is.

 

[pilotyip]

Deville, when a pilot transitions to a new airplane in the airline industry, it only takes a few weeks something like 7-8 weeks max to check out in your new airplane. The High School grad with 10 years of 121 PIC in a 727 at Kitty Hawk could transition to the A-300 as easily as the FedEx 727 pilot. We are not talking initial learn to solo training here. If all the college grads in the US elected not to fly, FedEx would hire the most qualifed non-college grads available; as they did it in the 70's and early 80's. It is strictly a selective screening method. I have nothing against FedEx guys making $500K/yr if their company can afford it, but he average American could care less about how a pilot making 100K feels he is working for a poverty wage. That I thought was the just of this thread? BTW the P-3 handled ice like dump truck handles gravel; just can not shut done engines to save gas, which compounded our problems on that mission. That comment was to show we all face problems in flying airplanes, it comes with the job like medicals and check rides. If I remember right the L-188 was certified for dispatch in severe icing back in the 70's when I flew it.

 

[CaptainMark]

Thanks Delville...at least you get it...

 

[CaptainMark]

Capt. Mark, I know about 10 pilots working for me who do not have college degrees, they could do your job any day of the week with a little training. Now of course we both know this is not possible because of the HR people at FedEx who maintain the purity of the breed. You are taking your job way too seriously, anyone with a certain level of skill, and desire could do your job. You knew what the job was when you came into the business, Medical, 6 mo. checks, etc. and ooh 45 kt x wind, TRW's such a dangerous job. At age 28, TT 1500 hrs I was flying a P-3 500 miles North of Iceland in freezing rain at 500' off the water at night was not dangerous or routine because I did not get paid like a FedEx pilot. And no 100K is not chump change in my book. I am still living my dream that started 58 yeas ago when I was five years old. You are extremely lucky, and the element of luck has much more to do with your position than your skill and desire.

Well..super pilot..i hope fedex thinks i take my job seriously! and i hope SWA thinks their pilots take their job seriously...and i guess you preach to your pilots NOT to take their job seriously..remind me never to board of of your aircraft! you have no clue..maybe your getting senile but i take my job very seriously...and if anyone can do my job how come people bust the interview and fail upgrades etc...and 100k is chump change!!!!! you never put yourself in position to make that money so you are ANGRY!!! and i can tell your pilots will never make any under you...and if living a dream is what your doing..shoot me know!!

 

[Delville]

Deville, when a pilot transitions to a new airplane in the airline industry, it only takes a few weeks something like 7-8 weeks max to check out in your new airplane.

When an already-qualified doctor learns a new surgical procedure, it only takes a few weeks to become qualified to perform it. When an already-qualified lawyer learns about a new law and it's impact on his/her cases it probably takes a few weeks as well. Does that mean a high school grad, could go in and learn the same new surgical procedure and perform it as well as the qualified doctor without going to medical school and having years of experience first? Does that mean a high-school grad could learn about a new law for a couple of weeks and then be able to competently try cases in court? Same applies to pilots.

I don't understand why you're so fixated on the high-school grad thing. If a high-school grad is flying at a major airline, it means that he/she has run the gauntlet of training, education, and certification to get there; one of the reasons pilots should be well compensated. You don't see separate pay scales for high-school grad pilots and non-high school grad pilots.

Do you not think that there exist high-school grads with a "certain level of skill and desire" who could make it as a doctor or lawyer? I'm sure there are. The powers-that-be, however, have decided that a college degree is pretty much a prerequisite for those careers. Likewise, the powers-that-be have also decided the same thing at many airlines. You cannot deny that there is a certain mystique attached to a college degree. If requiring a college degree helps us raise our overall level of pay by enhancing the prestige and reputation of pilots, then I'm all for it. I'm pretty sure anyone with the ability to become a pilot at a major airline also has the ability to obtain a four-year degree.

but the average American could care less about how a pilot making 100K feels he is working for a poverty wage.

You're right. I addressed this in my previous reply to you. They only care about themselves. No one is going to feel sorry for us.

They want to know what we do for them. Is there in any danger to them if lower pay is driving the talent pool away from flying? Like I said before, I'll stay away from that debate. However, it's not a bad thing for us if passengers do have a belief that it might be worth paying a little more to ensure high quality individuals are piloting THEIR airplane.

Unfortunately for us, there is a belief out there that flying airplanes is always easy; that the computer and autopilot take care of most everything. Heck, before I started flying, that was my impression of the airlines. The public does not realize that in an emergency, judgement and skill still do make all of the difference. We need to create the impression that there lives could be in danger if Jonny FBO, who decided to take up flying after the roof installation business didn't work out so well for him, is at the controls when an engine blows up or the weather goes down. We need to educate the public on that.

That comment was to show we all face problems in flying airplanes, it comes with the job like medicals and check rides.

We should all be well compensated well for all that goes into making flying the career that it is. We shouldn't decide we aren't worth it because there are some folks out there lacking college degrees who have managed to obtain an airline job. Don't sell us or yourself short.

 

[CaptainMark]

It is no use..you will not change his mind! his career is basically over and he wishes no good to all of us since he never was afforded a good wage..he is 63 according to his math and cannot retire..so screw the rest of us!!! hey pilotyip..jealous and bitter is no way to go through life!!!!

 

[WillowRunVortex]

...and if living a dream is what your doing..shoot me know!!

What,,,being on a pager 24/7 flying on-demand auto-freight in a ratted-out 40 year old Falcon 20 all night,,, hoping to clear 70K/yr isn’t living the dream?



What you guys are forgetting or are unaware of is pilotyip is MANAGEMENT, hence his skewed thought processes.

He seems to have adopted the Just glad to be here boss mentality.

What I don’t understand is why he keeps getting on here and subjecting himself to the verbal abuse of his whacked ideas on what constitutes a successful PILOT career in this industry.

Sad really.

 

[vetrider]

Atually pilotyip, over the years a common response to what I made as a pilot was surprise that I made so little. A typical comment was something along the lines of "you have all that responsibitly and that is all you get paid". Yes there are those who have no sympathy like you say, but I think most are shocked when they find out what pilots typically make.

I got into this field for the love of flying and I stay in it for the love of flying. I am a 38 year old B737 captain for a major airline that is among the lower paying ones. I know I make much less than CaptainMark and I am happy, I don't envy him. But I will also say that he deserves every penny and then some, I would sure rather go towards his pay scale than have him come towards mine.

Though I don't envy CaptainMark, it appears to me that you may. You have a few good points, but over all I think CaptainMark has posted a whole lot more that I agree with.

 

[CaptainMark]

Atually pilotyip, over the years a common response to what I made as a pilot was surprise that I made so little. A typical comment was something along the lines of "you have all that responsibitly and that is all you get paid". Yes there are those who have no sympathy like you say, but I think most are shocked when they find out what pilots typically make.

I got into this field for the love of flying and I stay in it for the love of flying. I am a 38 year old B737 captain for a major airline that is among the lower paying ones. I know I make much less than CaptainMark and I am happy, I don't envy him. But I will also say that he deserves every penny and then some, I would sure rather go towards his pay scale than have him come towards mine.

Though I don't envy CaptainMark, it appears to me that you may. You have a few good points, but over all I think CaptainMark has posted a whole lot more that I agree with.

I envy you!!! i love flying as well and feel lucky to have the job and working conditions that i have...and i also believe you should be making a much higher wage than you say you do....you are a highly skilled worker and unfortunately this business is screwed up right now...wages will go up as contracts are signed(i hope) and managers see the value of a pilot..imagine if we were on the same page one day and all stopped doing it for just 1 day...CHAOS around the world...what a dream...

 

[Mugs]

As I recall, TWA stopped looking for 4 year degrees from its applicants in the late 90s. Pilotyip's stated logic as to why is predictable --- the you don't need a degree to fly Part 121 bit. The reason TWA had to do it was because of turnover. Too many pilots got hired and used TWA as a temporary job until something perceived as more stable and better paying came along. Given the indsutrywide hiring situation back then, this was a real problem. By taking guys with no degree, TWA was able to bring in newhires that would be less capable of jumping ship to the other airlines that wanted the 4 year degree. I believe that Pilotyip has used the same logic over the years at his operation. You can find guys with no degree that do the job fine. Without the degree though they are likely to be around longer (if not indefinitely) thus helping to control turnover and training costs. You also don't have to pay a pilot as well that has fewer options inside or perhaps outside of aviation. Given that scenario, Pilotyip's no degree posturing is hardly surprising. I'm sure the TWA managers said the same thing when the policy suddenly changed there also.

 

[vetrider]

You don't need a degree to be an airline ceo either. I had a ground school instructor years back at a regional that loved to ask what the requirements were for an airline ceo. He delighted in answering after the requisite pause............."there aren't any." He was right, there aren't any. Yes, in a defacto way they all have degrees, but there is nothing written in stone that says they must have one.

So using pilotyip's logic, why are airline ceo's so overpaid, after all they can do their job with only a high school diploma?

 

[vetrider]

I envy you!!! i love flying as well and feel lucky to have the job and working conditions that i have...and i also believe you should be making a much higher wage than you say you do....you are a highly skilled worker and unfortunately this business is screwed up right now...wages will go up as contracts are signed(i hope) and managers see the value of a pilot..imagine if we were on the same page one day and all stopped doing it for just 1 day...CHAOS around the world...what a dream...

Yes you are lucky, but you deserve it too. Some people I think confuse a little bit of luck with something that just happened by accident. The fact that you are where you are most certainly did not happen by accident.

 

[vetrider]

Another question for pilotyip.

Why does the President of the United States make $400,000? After all, he can do the job with just a high school diploma. Thats just way to much money for someone to earn who is only required to hold a high school diploma to do his job.

 

[pilotyip]

vetrider a better question why does the president make 400K and the head of GM makes 10M? or a good wall street broker makes 20M.

 

[vetrider]

vetrider a better question why does the president make 400K and the head of GM makes 10M? or a good wall street broker makes 20M.

Yes there is alot in this world that is absurd, including your attempt to discredit the piloting profession because one can be in it with only a high school diploma. As has already been pointed out elsewhere, there is way more to it than that, and you know it.

 

[pilotyip]

Willow Run long time no see, your input is always so scintillating and thought provoking. BTW I work because I am still having fun. Lets go on the non-degreed stuff for airline CEO, how about David N at JB there is good one. Capt. Mark you are right, you are a highly skilled worked, but you are not by the Department of Labor definition, a knowledge worker like a Doctor, Lawyer or Engineer. Your only ability to demand high wages stems form your ability to with hold services, not because someone else could not so your job. Your company is kind to you and you have truly reached the pinnacle of a pilot’s career, and on top of that you get to do something you like. You planned to end someplace like FedEx and the stars happened to line up so that your wishes could come true. But to think they you are truly unique in your ability to fly a A-300 around the world is out of touch with reality and your job could easilsy be done by 100,000 of other pilots.

 

[freightdogfred]

The rest of America thinks $100K/yr is a great salary, only on a pilot board would this number be scoffed at. My brother 30 years at GM, a Master's in business, a level 7, one level below a company car, he has never made over $100K, neither have I or 95% of the American workers. You will find little sympathy in the rest of America, after all this is a job that can be done by a high school graduate.

OK, he's never made over 100K...How many birthdays,holidays,weekends, school plays, karate promotions, family get-togethers, anniversaries, football/basketball/baseball/hockey/soccer/volleyball games, movies, kid's first steps/mom's last steps, et cetera, has he missed??

How many times a week does he eat a a greasy spoon/chain fast food/vending machine?

How many times a month does he sleep in a hotel, and not his own bed?

I'll bet if he had to do these things, he'd want a bit more than he makes now. Hell don't take my word for it, go ask him-He's your brother. I already know the answer.

I would have included graduations but I know your clan doesn't believe in higher learning.

 

[pilotyip]

Vetrider I have never discredited the pilot profession, I have been in it my whole life, most of my friends are pilots. Most of the pilots I hire have college degrees, but in line performance I see little difference between the degree and the non-degreed. I bet FedEx has a few senior Captains without degree. Great airlines like SWA, JB, and AirTran do let the absence of a degree stop them from hiring the most qualified guy. I have a view the runs contrary to mainstream. Any time I post I am happy with my lot in life and I have never made over 100K it is going to bring up a lot of heated debate.

 

[pilotyip]

Fred, but all things you mentioned come with the job of being a pilot. I missed a lot of that stuff myself. If person wanted to home every night he would work for GM or become a schoolteacher. It comes with the job, and you accept as part of the privilege of doing the job you love. If you do not like flying it is the worst job in the world and you will not make you a happy pilot.

 

[tracearabians]

That is a great idea!!! It would work !!!

 

[superrav]

I think the flying public could care less what pilots make until an accident is directly linked to lack of experience.

You're not going to get any public sympathy by broadcasting that poor Mr. UAL/DAL/NWA Captain had to go from 200K a year to 130K. Boo Hoo

Maybe you Republican morons out there need to consider voting for someone that doesn't think labor is just another cost to be outsourced or beaten down to the lowest level possible.

Agree!!!

 

[Delville]

Capt. Mark you are right, you are a highly skilled worked, but you are not by the Department of Labor definition, a knowledge worker like a Doctor, Lawyer or Engineer. Your only ability to demand high wages stems form your ability to with hold services, not because someone else could not so your job.

Spoken like a true management pogue. And...you are right. Pilots have come to be viewed by people like you and the public as the human equivalent of commodities; any pilot will perform equally as well as the next pilot. Therefore the objective should be to obtain the lowest cost pilot, not the highest quality pilot, since there is no advantage gained in choosing one pilot over another.

In that sense, pilotyip and airline management in general, has won this portion of the public relations battle. They have convinced the public that pilots are simply glorified systems monitors. We need to change the public's minds. We need to let the public know, that when the chips are down and their lives are in the hands of the pilots flying THEIR airplane, that the quality, experience, and skill of those pilots up front does MATTER. Don't let management and people like pilotyip discount and demean the level of skill and experience it takes in order for us, as pilots, to meet our obligations to passengers, crew, and others who may be effected by any lack of professionalism on our part.

Capt Mark's value is certainly not determined only by his ability to withhold services. Did you get that line from the Northwest Airlines management playbook? Do you sincerely believe that all of his knowledge, skill, and experience count for nothing? What a slap in the face!

I have an idea for you to test. Fire all of your pilots. Go out to the high schools in your local area. Ask the school counselors for a list of the bottom 25% in each class. Go to the bottom 25% and offer each of them a job at your airline upon completion of a "crash" three-month piloting course following high school graduation. Let us all know how it goes. Then, tell us quality pilots don't matter.

To all of the pilots out there with pride in our profession: don't let these nimwits win. Let's take this thing back. Let's let the public know why what we do matters.

 

[pilotyip]

Deville, Deville, Deville, what are we going to do with you? How are the pilots going take this thing back? What is your answer, I would interest in seeing how this will be done? You cannot make skin purse out of a pig’s ear. I have no stakes in this poker game. I am just dealing with the reality as I see it from my prospective of a career I had very little control over, when you are an unemployed airline pilot no one, I mean no one cares. If I am management it is by default, at age 53 there are not many opportunities for unemployed pilots when your 3rd airline goes down the tubes. Besides I am not really management, I am just a scorekeeper and a clerk who busts his butt every day to make USA Jet a better place to work within the confines of the industry.

 

[climbhappy]

Delville,

here's some clarification: i think your heart is in the right place, but the reality is ad campaigns are great for public service and social issues.
No one , I repeat no one in the flying public, (in my view) could give a fart about how much money we're making right now. Airline tickets are bought like a commodity, just like when I buy the lowest priced beer. that said, no purpose would be served by an ad campaign, other than to hope to invoke pity.

Everybody else is taking it in the shorts. GM just announced layoffs of 20000 white collar managers. Corporate America sends jobs to india. CAFTA is going to take more jobs south of here. Corporate america buys a ticket to ride on our airplanes. corporate america and the leisure traveler just couldn't give a crap what you make. they figure it's enough.

 

[FlyBoeingJets]

.

...begin a public awareness campaign. I remember recently that there were advertisements highlighting the job the air traffic controllers perform and how much responsibility is in their hands.

...a stastically significant portion of the flying public is scared of flying. We could commission a series of "public service"-type commercials that highlight the effect the low pay is having on the quality of pilots in the profession and perhaps play on the public's fears a bit.

....imply air safety is at risk.

As we all know the flying public is who makes or breaks this industry.

I think we would be shooting ourselves in the foot if we chose to put fear in the traveler. We would also inspire anger in some who saw our attempt to manipulate them by "playing on the public's fears". Can you imagine management's response ads? Which would the public like more, the soothing management ads or our ominous predictions of gloom and doom?

Most air travel advertisement focuses on the comfort and/or ease of air travel. I think talking about the negatives would get some to travel by car.

Talking to the public about our salaries??? That would not turn out well. Many would see how much more we make than they do and it would foster ill will towards us. Besides that they would say, "go right ahead get a different job" if we highlighted those going to other careers for more money.

 

[Publishers]

ERJ must not require much spelling.

The union set the seniority system up when there was almost no job/company switching and all the carriers were on board.

With deregulation, all that went away in less than 30 seconds.

The fact is pay would never have reached the levels it did without regulation.

 

[D'Angelo]

Everyone had the chance to say no to concessions and stand together. The ball started rolling 4 years ago and its never going to stop. Until pilot groups agree to not accept growth from airlines that refused to take concessions we are all screwed. Its turned into a dog eat dog world so now its game on. I will do whatever it takes to keep my senority and if it means undercutting some of the undercutters then so be it. You dont see Mesa or CHQ or anyone else saying they won't accept flying from airlines that refused to take concessions. If they did then we would be in better position. Now its every man for himself and there is no more unity. Im all for doin what it takes to keep my piece. That includes open time and anything else I may be able to do