An Honest Question for AirTran Pilots

[Kharma Police]

KP, don't forget you have 85ish rjs and 50ish 73s. Swa has 550 73s. Notice the difference?

Not sure what the relevance is but I'll take a stab. You think because you have more airplanes then therefore you are entitled to something different in the SLI?

Maybe you want to tie it back to GuppyWN's qusetion?

Delta has around 700 planes, VA has around 30.

 

[S3sundowner]

Listen KP, like I said earlier, you guys are in a win-win situation. I think you will take a hit on the sli, just my .02, but you will have fences to protect you. So, if you are an aai captain now, you will be for the next 4 years or so. During that time, you will be, if you so chose, on the swa contract making serious bank. $40k/month for a swa captain is not uncommon. You may lose out a little in the sli because of what you are gaining, but by the time the fences come down, you will be so far ahead of where you are now, and, if what you aai guys say comes true (ie aai represents significant growth opporunities to swa), then you will have 2-2.5k in new hires below you. You shouldn't look this gift horse in the mouth for too long, but don't expect significant victories in this sli; I seriously doubt you guys will do any better than a 6 or 7 to 1 ratiod integration. And that, my friend, is a great deal for you and you should know it.

 

[Kharma Police]

Listen KP, like I said earlier, you guys are in a win-win situation. I think you will take a hit on the sli, just my .02, but you will have fences to protect you. So, if you are an aai captain now, you will be for the next 4 years or so. During that time, you will be, if you so chose, on the swa contract making serious bank. $40k/month for a swa captain is not uncommon. You may lose out a little in the sli because of what you are gaining, but by the time the fences come down, you will be so far ahead of where you are now, and, if what you aai guys say comes true (ie aai represents significant growth opporunities to swa), then you will have 2-2.5k in new hires below you. You shouldn't look this gift horse in the mouth for too long, but don't expect significant victories in this sli; I seriously doubt you guys will do any better than a 6 or 7 to 1 ratiod integration. And that, my friend, is a great deal for you and you should know it.

Again, the arbitrator will make the decision, weather it goes down like you say is to be determined. However, if I were you I would try and refrain from telling my fellow pilots and myself how great you think your version of events will be. I can smell the BS through my computer screen.

 

[texman]

I don't feel "entitled" to anything so I wouldn't mind. However, the person already in his captain seat is logically more deserving, not the FO who would be taking his place. That in terms of career progression (not pay) is a windfall.

Great neutral post ( not being a smart a>>), but what good would it be for the AT pilots to take this to arbitration. Career progression and career expectations are the some what the same. The captain position is all about the money. I think thats why you see some guy's do the pay comparison thing here on FI. You look at a captain pay at AT verse Mid to SR FO pay at SWA. So with the seat thing in play why does a AT captain deserve to hold his seat and make more money when he would if he was a FO at SWA. Plus when a company furloughs a pilot group what career expectations does the whole list have in the long run with a company that under values it's employees. Look at the 70+ firm orders we have. Look at the 51+ orders you have. What do we know about the future of AT growth. Do you think AT could have been long term competitive against SWA. Maybe, maybe not? So would career progression/expectations only be predicated on growth or money and seat held on the 27th 2010? Correct me if I am wrong, were all 51 airplanes going to be exercise in 2011?

 

[maxblast72]

KP, don't forget you have 85ish rjs and 50ish 73s. Swa has 550 73s. Notice the difference?

Sundowner, don't forget Airtran has 32 gates in ATL, about 10-15 slots in DCA, about 15-20 roundtrips a day outside the Lower 48, and about 20-25 slots in LGA. SWA has 0 gates in ATL, 0 slots in DCA, 0 roundtrips a day outside the lower 48, and 10 slots in LGA. Notice the difference? Gary Kelly did and he broke out the checkbook (and offered a 70% premium to the AAI shareholders).

 

[S3sundowner]

Max, I did mention some of that stuff in my earlier posts. There's no doubt you guys are bringing opportunities, but so are swa. It's not your operation GK wants, it's the combined operation. You are gaining an industry leading contract and the future is both secure and prosperous for you guys. The sooner you come to an agreement, the sooner you guys prosper. When the lists are merged, what's important is career expectation, not gates in atl or wherever. Just plain and simple, career expectation. I think if you take a snapshot on the 27th of your career expectation and your counterpart at swa, it will be VASTLY different. Your counterpart at swa is not concerned with gates in atl; he/she is concerned with career expectation and fortunately for you, it's a lot better at swa, including with a staple.

 

[texman]

Maxblast72,

I will play too! DEPARTURES PER DAY

SWA/AT

LAS-221/AVG 5-10

MDW-214/AVG 5-15

BWI-212/AVG 50

PHX-168/AVG 5

DEN-139/AVG 5

MCO-136/AVG 50

HOU-124/AVG 5

DAL- 115/AVG 0

LAX- 113/ AVG 5

OAK- 101/ AVG 0

SAN- 90/ AVG 0

STL- 83/ AVG 5

BNA- 71/ AVG 0

SMF- 64/ AVG 0

SJC- 62/ AVG 0

MCI- 61/ AVG 5

PHL- 60/ AVG 5-10

SWA DEPARTURE FOR 09- 1,125,111

AT DEPARTURES FOR 09- 251,694

Can you imagine how many customers SWA brings?

Don't forget that checkbook was mad available buy our employees and our loyal customers.

Notice the difference?

 

[vixin]

Why bother with these guys. They arent worth it. DO yourself a favor and put them on the ignore list. Do me a favor and dont quote the little children.

 

[F9 Driver]

Ok, that article is such bull. I heard GK 8 feet away from me state the labor was a non issue. It was the fact that he would have to furlough and F9's books were a mess. I think it was a mgt tactic to show good face with the pilots as a new leader. But from what I understand he got what he needed out of the deal.

This article is as close to what happened as anything written before or since. Find anything that isn't factual in it and report away.

Your revisionist histrionics make even less sense than most of the drivel posted on FI, but whatever it takes to get you through the night...

 

[Tweet-a-Lishus]

I would like to know what AAI is bringing to the table that SWA didn't pay for!

 

[waveflyer]

Sundowner, don't forget Airtran has 32 gates in ATL, about 10-15 slots in DCA, about 15-20 roundtrips a day outside the Lower 48, and about 20-25 slots in LGA. SWA has 0 gates in ATL, 0 slots in DCA, 0 roundtrips a day outside the lower 48, and 10 slots in LGA. Notice the difference? Gary Kelly did and he broke out the checkbook (and offered a 70% premium to the AAI shareholders).

I love these type of posts- and where do you think the money for that 70% premium came from? Gary's own personal checkbook?

No one questions that purchasing Tran is and will be good for Southwest- and therefore Swapa pilots down the road- we just don't see how it will be good for us as Swapa pilots. You get a better contract. Better $money$. No strike or lockout threats. Base choices now coast to coast. (and don't tell me ALL your pilots have only ever wanted to live in the ATL- you're just like every airline w/pilots from all over who'd love to get out west or north or to Texas or chicago or...) Better schedules (believe me, you don't know until you do them- they're much better)

What do Swapa pilots get that former air tran pilots do not. We both get the benefit of any growth, and .... We get an Atlanta base...?

So keep it in perspective. I love this deal for all the reasons you cited above- but when talking pilot issues- there are some deep points to deal with - if we don't end up with some seniority, what do we get?

I've seen a lot of precedent- I will be happy to honor whatever gets worked out- and wouldn't be surprised with a number of different outcomes

 

[Kharma Police]

I would like to know what AAI is bringing to the table that SWA didn't pay for!

Whatever you think we don't bring, it's worth 1.4 billion to your boss.

 

[texman]

This article is as close to what happened as anything written before or since. Find anything that isn't factual in it and report away.

Your revisionist histrionics make even less sense than most of the drivel posted on FI, but whatever it takes to get you through the night...

What ever you say brother. It's all good.

 

[Ty Webb]

Maxblast72,

I will play too! DEPARTURES PER DAY

SWA/AT

LAS-221/AVG 5-10

MDW-214/AVG 5-15

BWI-212/AVG 50

PHX-168/AVG 5

DEN-139/AVG 5

MCO-136/AVG 50

HOU-124/AVG 5

DAL- 115/AVG 0

LAX- 113/ AVG 5

OAK- 101/ AVG 0

SAN- 90/ AVG 0

STL- 83/ AVG 5

BNA- 71/ AVG 0

SMF- 64/ AVG 0

SJC- 62/ AVG 0

MCI- 61/ AVG 5

PHL- 60/ AVG 5-10

SWA DEPARTURE FOR 09- 1,125,111

AT DEPARTURES FOR 09- 251,694

Can you imagine how many customers SWA brings?

Don't forget that checkbook was mad available buy our employees and our loyal customers.

Notice the difference?

Why go through all the trouble of listing that crap if you're not going to be accurate?

Where are all the cities AirTran serves that SWA doesn't (over 30 of 'em)?

Not only that, but the AirTran traffic for the cities you do show aren't even right (like SAN) or you picked the slowest season.

If your case was so weak that you had to resort to such a one-sided hack-job, why bother doing it at all?

What you could have been looking at is how much we can grow what we have by connecting the cities that we serve individually, but instead you wasted all of our time with this crap, and we are all stupider for having read it.

I don't know about the rest of you guys, but I am done arguing this stuff. It really doesn't matter. In the end it will be what it will be, and the rest of this was just pulling each others' chains.

 

[dh82dvr]

When the lists are merged, what's important is career expectation, not gates in atl or wherever. Just plain and simple, career expectation. I think if you take a snapshot on the 27th of your career expectation and your counterpart at swa, it will be VASTLY different. Your counterpart at swa is not concerned with gates in atl; he/she is concerned with career expectation and fortunately for you, it's a lot better at swa, including with a staple.

So how do you define career expectation? Everyone sees it differently of course. You are correct, it is not gates in atl or dca or the number of departures per day. So then is it pay only? Upgrade opportunities? What base you can hold? Its different for everyone.

Some of you guys on here should just whip em out and get it over with though.

 

[jonjuan]

Whatever you think we don't bring, it's worth 1.4 billion to your boss.
Maybe not so much anymore now that oil is going north.
http://www.thestreet.com/story/10959888/1/airline-stocks-still-buys-with-100-oil-analyst.html

Airline Stocks Still Buys With $100 Oil: Analyst
By Ted Reed 01/04/11 - 10:43 AM ESTAdd Comment
Stock quotes in this article:ALK, DAL, LCC, UAL


CHICAGO (TheStreet) -- Worried that rising fuel prices will reduce airline profits?

Don't be, said two airline analysts in recent reports. "High Oil Prices Are Good for Airlines," is the headline on a report by Stifel Nicolaus analyst Hunter Keay, while Soleil Securities analyst James Higgins titles his report: "Analyzing Higher Fuel Price Impact: Less Than We Expected."

Keay writes that capacity cuts since 2008 have resulted in "a comprehensive restructuring of the industry [that] should contribute to accelerating earnings growth into next year, even with expensive jet fuel." Domestic capacity has fallen 8% since 2006 and has fallen back to levels last seen in 2003 and 1999, he said, noting that 2011 domestic capacity growth is unlikely to exceed 1%.

Many investors are ignoring trends including capacity discipline, the advent of fees, widespread hedging, reduced leverage for labor, the potential for more mergers and the low likelihood of startups, Keay wrote, noting that United(UAL_) is his favorite airline stock.

Higgins, meanwhile, said that while higher fuel prices represent "the single greatest threat to the outlook for airline stocks ... most carriers would still make money in 2011 in a $100 oil environment." He said Alaska(ALK_) is least affected by higher fuel prices, due to strong hedging positions and industry-high margins.

Higgins' other favorites are Delta(DAL_) and United. Higher fuel costs could result in American(AMR_) losing more money and in US Airways(LCC_) and AirTran(AAI_) swinging to losses, he said.

As for fuel hedging, Keay said Delta has the most advantageous position, with 39% of 2011 hedged at $85 a barrel. Delta recently provided 2011 fuel cost guidance of $2.47 a barrel, less than Southwest(LUV_) guidance of $2.70 to $2.75 a barrel. In general, he said, airlines including Southwest have limited hedging positions, meaning that fuel cost increases are more likely to be passed on to consumers.

Regarding fee income, Keay noted that fees will account for the total amount of US Airways 2010 net income, which he estimates at $486 million, just one indication that fee income is likely to reduce historic earnings volatility.

Keay also noted that that 2010 growth in passenger revenue per available seat mile will equal about 13% and will outpace capacity growth (as measured by available seat miles) by about 1,000 basis points, the biggest gap between revenue growth and capacity growth since 1981.

 

[RedDogC130]

My career expectation is to work for a consitently profitable company who pays me well and where I don't dread coming to work or worried every day if I will be on the street the next.

 

[Tweet-a-Lishus]

Kharma you just made my arguement for me. SWA is paying 1.4 billion and assuming a little over 1 billion in Airtran debt to have the Atlanta gates.

 

[texman]

Why go through all the trouble of listing that crap if you're not going to be accurate?

Where are all the cities AirTran serves that SWA doesn't (over 30 of 'em)?

Not only that, but the AirTran traffic for the cities you do show aren't even right (like SAN) or you picked the slowest season.

If your case was so weak that you had to resort to such a one-sided hack-job, why bother doing it at all?

What you could have been looking at is how much we can grow what we have by connecting the cities that we serve individually, but instead you wasted all of our time with this crap, and we are all stupider for having read it.

I don't know about the rest of you guys, but I am done arguing this stuff. It really doesn't matter. In the end it will be what it will be, and the rest of this was just pulling each others' chains.

Oh come on TY! One sided? I had a list of large airport departures on hand and just wanted to show the comparison of the two. If you noticed they had AVG next to the AT departures. Arguing? I am not arguing. AT brothers on here state what is being brought in on there side, so I decided to show what we do too. Yes my friend as previously discussed this will be awesome growth. I and 5800 of my brothers a sisters know the 37 cities that you bring and 37 cities that we bring. Less than 5% overlap.

I Know it really doesn't matter but the more information we give each other the better off both sides will be educated. That's all that is going on here. Some post are emotional some are not, but most have good information.

 

[dh82dvr]

My expectation is to go to the beach and drink large rum beverages