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AMW Pilots - 5 yrs, 2.5 yrs prison time

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sqwkvfr said:
Good GOD!!!! That is sheer lunacy!

They should have held up a Circle K with a stolen gun....they'd have gotten less time!!
MADD food for thought...

http://www3.madd.org/laws/law.cfm?LawID=ANTI

The chart is the "plea bargain" vs. the "anti plea bargain" states. Unfortunately for Cloyd and his Co-Captain, Florida is a non-plea bargain state.
 
The funny thing is...most cases are resolved by "plea negotiating". Cloyd and his Co-Captain attempted to negotiate a plea negotiation prior to trial...more than once, I believe.

Guilty pleas are the bread and butter of the American criminal courts. They outnumber trials by more than five to one at the federal level and by about ten to one at the state and local levels (Bureau of Justice Statistics 1984). The data in Figure 13-1 demonstrate the pervasiveness of guilty pleas.

Most guilty pleas are the result of plea bargaining. The prosecutor, defense attorney, defendant, and sometimes the judge reach an accommodation on the disposition of the case.

Plea bargaining can best be defined as the process through which a defendant pleads guilty to a criminal charge with the expectation of receiving some consideration from the state.

Plea bargaining is hardly new. There is considerable evidence that it became a common practice in state courts sometime after the Civil War (Alschuler 1979; Friedman 1979; Sanborn 1986). In federal courts the massive number of liquor cases stemming from Prohibition led to the institutionalization of plea bargaining in the first third of this century (Padgett 1990).

What is new is the amount of attention plea negotiations now receive. During the early decades of this century, it was only sporadically discussed. The crime surveys of the 1920s reported the dominance of plea bargaining (Illinois Association 1929; Moley 1928), but most courts persistently denied its existence.

It was not until the 1960s that plea bargaining emerged as a controversial national issue. One indication of this controversy is the language used to describe negotiated settlements in criminal cases. Currently, the two most popular names are plea bargaining and plea negotiation.

These terms, often used interchangeably, evoke negative images suggesting that the courts are “bargaining with criminals” (Sanborn 1986).

Even more pejorative phrases, such as “copping a plea” or “striking a deal,” are sometimes used. Moreover, court officials disagree about what is meant by plea bargaining.

Some prosecutors refuse to admit that they engage in bargaining; they simply call it something else (Miller,McDonald, and Cramer 1978).

Plea bargaining is a general term that encompasses a wide range of practices. Table 13-1 on page 325 shows the extensive differences among jurisdictions in the ratio of pleas to trials. In some courthouses, trials are rare indeed. In others, they are more common.

Any discussion of negotiated justice must start with the recognition that there are important variations both in the types of plea agreements negotiated and the process by which such agreements are reached.

Cited from:
America's Courts and the Criminal Justice System
David W. Neubauer
Copyright 2002
Wadsworth/Thomson
......
 
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I understand that what they did was wrong, but these sentences are a little excessive.

Also, how is the state of Florida planning on enforcing this ruling for the FO:
"He was also barred from operating an aircraft for five years."

This is state law overstepping it's boundaries, imho.
 
Costs and Risks of Trial
The possibility of trial greatly influences negotiations. Trials are a costly and time-consuming means of establishing guilt. For example, to try a simple burglary case would take from one to four days (depending on the jurisdiction) and require the presence of the judge, bailiff, clerk, defense attorney, prosecutor, and court reporter.

During this period, none of them could devote much time to the numerous other cases requiring disposition. Also, each would be forced to spend time preparing for this trial. A trial would also require the presence of numerous noncourt personnel: police officers, witnesses, victims, and jurors. For each of these persons, a trial represents an unwanted intrusion into their daily lives.

Based on these considerations, all members of the courtroom work group have a common interest in disposing of cases and avoiding unnecessary trials. Their reasons may differ. Judges and prosecutors want high disposition rates in order to prevent case backlogs and to present a public impression that the process is running smoothly. Public defenders prefer quick dispositions because they lack enough people to handle the caseload. Private defense attorneys are dependent on high case turnover to earn a living, because most of their clients can afford only a modest fee.

In short, all members of the courtroom work group have more cases to try than time or resources to try them (Eisenstein and Jacob 1977). To a large extent, then, a trial is a mutual penalty that all parties seek to avoid through plea bargaining.

To be sure, not all trials are avoided. But through plea bargaining, scarce trial resources can be applied to the cases that need to be tried.

Cited from:
America's Courts and the Criminal Justice System
David W. Neubauer
Copyright 2002
Wadsworth/Thomson
In other words, Cloyd and his Co-captain got horse buggered by Florida's "non-plea bargain" DUI law. They must have had free time to devote to this case, seeing as Florida is all caught up on trying murderers, rapists, robbers, burglars, home invasion burglars, child molesters, pimps, drug dealers, identity stealers and what not...oh, that's right, they don't try those people, they plea bargain with them. DUI is not a plea bargain offense in Florida...sorry, I forgot, my bad. At least they got their priorities straight.
 
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I hope that everyone that gets in a car and drives after 1 or 21 beers gets 5 years as well. No sense in endangering every family that a drunk drives by.
 
The USA.

Land of the free and home of the brave.

We have more people in prison- both total numbers and per capita- than any other country in the world.

Let's throw some more in the slammer. Nothing gets legislators and judges elected like being tough on crime.
 
We have more people in prison b/c our prisons aren't that bad. Cable, three square meals, showers, work-out facilites, great medical, dental care, etc.
Other countries just chop off a hand for burgulary, no prison time for you, no wasting the taxpayers' hard earned money on cable tv for you, please put your hand here on this block. Other countries are far tougher on crime than america is. We are more concerned about the prisoner's rights than we are about the victims rights.
 
Flying Illini said:
We are more concerned about the prisoner's rights than we are about the victims rights.
At least someone see's the light. Sometimes I feel as though I am drowning in a world of liberal wusses that are always scared to death that we are being "mean" to the poor people who knowingly commited crimes.
 
I think the sentances are great. I can't remember how many bloody messes caused by drunks I've had to clean up after they have plowed their car into a family or some poor sap who happened to be in the wrong place at the wrong time.

Almost every one of these drunks end up walking away without a single injury.

Now, here we have a couple of "professional" pilots (clearly they are not) who are taking how many lives into their own hands, and they can't help themselves enough to do it sober?

Lock'em up - throw away the key.
 
Could we maybe say, "Democracy (or at least the freedoms we enjoy here in the U.S.), the cause of, and solution to, all of this country's problems?"

Victims always get the short stick, and there is something seriously wrong with that. Sometimes the ACLU just makes me want to hurt someone. I wonder if they would fight for a prisoner's rights if that criminal killed one of their (ACLU leaders') family members? If they didn't help the criminal out, they would be hippocrites, if they did, they would be helping the killer of a member of their family...maybe then, and probably ONLY then, would they begin to see how wrong their ways have been.
 
Illini wrote: "Sometimes the ACLU just makes me want to hurt someone. I wonder if they would fight for a prisoner's rights if that criminal killed one of their (ACLU leaders') family members? If they didn't help the criminal out, they would be hippocrites, if they did, they would be helping the killer of a member of their family...maybe then, and probably ONLY then, would they begin to see how wrong their ways have been."

What exactly was the ACLU's role in this?
 
adfsdf

wrxpilot said:

I mean did they really think that they could get by and fly an a/c without someone eventually catching on.

I think we need to make our prisons more feared like the ones you hear about in third world countries that whip and torture you. Prisons should be a punishment not a glorified country club (camp cupcake and martha stuart) Its like someof these prisons are more modern than my old high school. But i second that we focus too much on prisoners rights than vicitms rights, after all shouldnt the prisoners lose their rights for screwing up?
 
BRIGADEAVIATOR said:
I mean did they really think that they could get by and fly an a/c without someone eventually catching on.

I think we need to make our prisons more feared like the ones you hear about in third world countries that whip and torture you. Prisons should be a punishment not a glorified country club (camp cupcake and martha stuart) Its like someof these prisons are more modern than my old high school. But i second that we focus too much on prisoners rights than vicitms rights, after all shouldnt the prisoners lose their rights for screwing up?

Here's some food for thought...

Probation Kiosks.

Home Arrest.

The jails and prisons are operating above capacity, so instead of locking them up, they are getting probation kiosks to check in...it's sort of like an ATM that uses biometrics and pin. Once a week or whenever specified, the parolee or or probationer just goes to where one of the probation kiosks is, puts a palm print on it and answers the usuall battery of questions a probation officer would ask. If the person owes a fine, they can then swipe their credit card through the card reader and make a payment.

House arrest...that's pretty self explanatory. If you're interested in the house arrest programs in your state, city or county...just do a www.google.com using that location in the search with home arrest program as the other search phrase.
 
Flying Illini said:
We have more people in prison b/c our prisons aren't that bad. Cable, three square meals, showers, work-out facilites, great medical, dental care, etc.
Other countries just chop off a hand for burgulary, no prison time for you, no wasting the taxpayers' hard earned money on cable tv for you, please put your hand here on this block. Other countries are far tougher on crime than america is. We are more concerned about the prisoner's rights than we are about the victims rights.

Try watching A&E's prison series if you believe this. Very few prisons have cable. When they do, it is usually because the prison design doesn't allow for reception of regular TV. Too much re-bar in the concrete. The showers are there not for the prisoners' direct benefit, but to keep down disease. Dental care in most prisons is just pulling a bad tooth. Medical care is great i you consider that the care giver is most likely only a nurse or a unlicense doctor. Usually one step ahead of a review board hearing. As for other prisons, some countries like Europe are better and some are worst.

In Africa and Asia, if you have an accident in an aircraft the flight crew is arrested. If the court finds the crew at fault, off you go to prison. Even if the accident was out of the crew's control.

In this case, it as driven by polictics and publicity, period. It appears that this was a first time offense of DUI. I haven't looked at Florida's law, but most of the states I have looked at show the standard sentence for the first time as lost of license for 6 to 12 months. Plus most laws refer to operating a motor vehicle on a public roadway. Personally, I can not see an airport as a public roadway.

There as way too much polictics, media and publicity i this case and it got blown way out of proportion. While they did wrong and needed to be punished, the punishment was way too excessive for the crime.

As for the ACLU. Their reason for being is to protect the Constitution and the Bill of Rights. From attack by anuone and everyone. While we as a people may not like a particular stand on it's part, if you protect it for all, you must protect it for one.
 
Rick1128 said:
In this case, it as driven by polictics and publicity, period. It appears that this was a first time offense of DUI. I haven't looked at Florida's law, but most of the states I have looked at show the standard sentence for the first time as lost of license for 6 to 12 months. Plus most laws refer to operating a motor vehicle on a public roadway. Personally, I can not see an airport as a public roadway.

There as way too much polictics, media and publicity i this case and it got blown way out of proportion. While they did wrong and needed to be punished, the punishment was way too excessive for the crime.

Frankly I don't care that this was a "first time" offense. More probably it was the first time they were caught. Also you should consider that these guys weren't just a couple of flunkies who got boozed up at the local tavern, hopped into their pickup truck and got stopped by an alert police officer. They were trained professionals, who I am sure have received many hours of human factors training on why you don't fly while intoxicated.

Let's not forget the number of people who would have been at direct risk of their impairment and decision to fly.

One other thing that bothers me, and should you too, is that in a way they represent your (our) profession. I don't need boneheads like this out there. There's a line from here to the horizon of well qualified individuals just waiting for the opportunity to fill their shoes who won't make such a stupid decision.
 
You mess with the bull, you get the horns. I have no pity for the pilots. What they did was amazingly stupid. It could have ended with a huge number of fatalities. To me this is akin to walking public place with guns blazing, and getting lucky that no one got killed.
 
seethru said:
Frankly I don't care that this was a "first time" offense. More probably it was the first time they were caught.
You might be right, it wouldn't be the first time that airline pilots have proven that even an intoxicated person can fly an airliner.
 
I thought one of the reports said the Capt was already on probation for a DUI? If so, he certainly didn't learn much from that.

Like someone else said, this wasn't two 20 yr old Seamen off a long cruise or a couple knucklehead college kids. They were 40-something year old adults that stayed out drinking in a sports bar til 4:30 am; before a 10:30 flight.

Time to grow up or get help was years ago....
 
Vector4fun said:
I thought one of the reports said the Capt was already on probation for a DUI? If so, he certainly didn't learn much from that.

Like someone else said, this wasn't two 20 yr old Seamen off a long cruise or a couple knucklehead college kids. They were 40-something year old adults that stayed out drinking in a sports bar til 4:30 am; before a 10:30 flight.

Time to grow up or get help was years ago....
True, true and true.
 
Hi I was reading some nice interesting posts. How sad on both sides of the coin. Number 1, thanks that it wasn't our mother, daughter, sister, brother or your new born on that flight out of Miami. The good side, no one got killed. The good side, these two men can think about what they did wrong and hopefully come out whole out of this whole thing.

Hopefully a positive experience can come out of this. If I had made the same mistake of two many drinks I just would have called in sick and probably lost my job. But they lost so much by not doing so. I'm sure outside of the alcolhol issue they were probably good pilots on the inside with obviously a terrible disease. Let's be happy that the outcome of them flying the plane and crashing it did not happen.

I think the punishment is fair.
 
MissKittyKat said:
Hi I was reading some nice interesting posts. How sad on both sides of the coin. Number 1, thanks that it wasn't our mother, daughter, sister, brother or your new born on that flight out of Miami. The good side, no one got killed. The good side, these two men can think about what they did wrong and hopefully come out whole out of this whole thing.

Hopefully a positive experience can come out of this. If I had made the same mistake of two many drinks I just would have called in sick and probably lost my job. But they lost so much by not doing so. I'm sure outside of the alcolhol issue they were probably good pilots on the inside with obviously a terrible disease. Let's be happy that the outcome of them flying the plane and crashing it did not happen.

I think the punishment is fair.
here's something to think about, the pilots are in prison for "what could have happened".

Next thing you know, I'm sitting here on the computer posting some of my usuall rant and a bunch of guys in balaclavas and "homeland security" vests, bust down my front door. Normally, that wouldn't bother me so much, but these guys are toting German made submachine guns and they tossed a flash bang grenade on my stairwell.

I ask for a warrant, as I'm being hog tied on the floor and I'm being told shut up...

Later, after I get my phone call from Gitmo, I find out that somebody was able to articulate that because I was a "gun collector", that I was a person of "concern". Or in long hand, a "suspected terrorist".

After all, a gun collection could be used to hurt 1 - 99 persons...woulda coulda could be.

Yea, Cloyd and his co-captain were factually guilty and then later found legally guilty of felony DUI...but to say that they "almost killed hundreds" including babies or the sperm of some guy sitting in seat 19C, is a stretch...
 

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