AMR can abandon pilots' union contract -judge

[Full of LUV]

Reading some of the APA emails, looks like a very hostile, pilot-firing environment is festering there, not at all a good place to work at the moment,,,

I think it may have been a good job..... but it's been a "very hostile, pilot-firing environment festering there" place for along time. Not just the pilots, AMR hates all its employees, pilots are not that special in thier eyes....

 

[OHGOON]

Good post. I'm sure there are many that secretly feel the Nordstrom pilots should have their turn at losing homes, retirements and families.

Here we have a perfect illustration of the problem. Please explain how another pilot loosing his home, retirement and family helps you and the rest secure a more secure future?

Secretly or not, this type of thinking only fosters the environment for further reductions to the average career expectations of all pilots. No matter how much the APA/American pilots are perceived as former arrogant a$$hoies by some of us, how does celebrating their current misfortune help the rest of us secure a more stable and desirable career in our chosen profession?

Again, no matter what, management wants us to focus on each other rather than what they are doing. As long as pilot vs pilot remains the center of attention, they are free to fly below the radar to continue to f#ck us as a whole.

 

[Full of LUV]

Good post. I'm sure there are many that secretly feel the Nordstrom pilots should have their turn at losing homes, retirements and families.

Iron,
Despite how you feel about the wrongs of the past, everytime a pilot contract is decimated in BK court, it puts downward pressure on everyone.

Look at the last 15 years, when pensions and good working rules were the norm for the industry compared to today's environment of no pensions, and raped work rules.

I knew a few TWA pilots from back in the day, no doubt it was traumatic. One doesn't even fly anymore. Hope you can find some peace some day.
Aloha,
LUV

 

[maru657]

Here we have a perfect illustration of the problem. Please explain how another pilot loosing his home, retirement and family helps you and the rest secure a more secure future?

I'll try to "splain" this to you Lucy. This group of pilots were problematic in that they not only did not support other pilot groups, they actually went out of their way to take advantage of the problems other pilot groups were experiencing. This type of philosophy is inherent in the thinking rampant in today's industry. I feel it probably has to hit bottom before it gets better. When every pilot realizes that a national concerted effort will be required in order to fix yesterday's mistakes, we might have a chance. Until then you might as well grease the skids and hang on. It's a long ride to the bottom.

 

[scoreboardII]

The problem is everyone is fixing yesterdays problems instead of looking forward to the real problems coming down the road.

 

[G4dude]

why anyone would negotiate that a company deposit money on your behalf into a pension has and will always be stupid. Why not negotiate that the company pay you that money directly? why not negotiate the company contribute that same amount to your 401k instead? The individual doenst have much choice but why in the heck a Union would negotiate that vs direct pay is just ignorant.... then you don't have to cry victim when the money is gone

This may be the best post I ever read. Bravo!!!!!!!!!!!!

 

[G4dude]

Iron,
Despite how you feel about the wrongs of the past, everytime a pilot contract is decimated in BK court, it puts downward pressure on everyone.

Look at the last 15 years, when pensions and good working rules were the norm for the industry compared to today's environment of no pensions, and raped work rules.

I knew a few TWA pilots from back in the day, no doubt it was traumatic. One doesn't even fly anymore. Hope you can find some peace some day.
Aloha,
LUV

Expressing approval for tactics which victimized so many TWA folks, then expressing sympathy for the victims, is the perfect example of moral bankruptcy and mealy mouthed sentimentality. It is not a sacrifice when OTHER people suffer. It is ruthlessness.

 

[OHGOON]

I'll try to "splain" this to you Lucy. This group of pilots were problematic in that they not only did not support other pilot groups, they actually went out of their way to take advantage of the problems other pilot groups were experiencing. This type of philosophy is inherent in the thinking rampant in today's industry. I feel it probably has to hit bottom before it gets better. When every pilot realizes that a national concerted effort will be required in order to fix yesterday's mistakes, we might have a chance. Until then you might as well grease the skids and hang on. It's a long ride to the bottom.

You start off condescending to me and then the rest of your post agrees with exactly the point I was trying to make. I guess I need another "splanation" because this is just too confusing.

The problem is everyone is fixing yesterdays problems instead of looking forward to the real problems coming down the road.

Exactly! Now this is the best statement I have read on this thread! Simple, elegant and to the point, Bravo Sir!

 

[OHGOON]

Originally Posted by enuffalready
why anyone would negotiate that a company deposit money on your behalf into a pension has and will always be stupid. Why not negotiate that the company pay you that money directly? why not negotiate the company contribute that same amount to your 401k instead? The individual doenst have much choice but why in the heck a Union would negotiate that vs direct pay is just ignorant.... then you don't have to cry victim when the money is gone

This may be the best post I ever read. Bravo!!!!!!!!!!!!

Nice rhetoric, but have you not seen the studies that most Americans are unable or unwilling to save enough in their 401Ks to have a comfortable retirement in old age. Who is going to take care of them? It's going to be u and I through higher taxes. The stock market is so volatile now that even professional hedge fund managers are no longer making the kinds of returns they used to, but pilots are so much smarter, they will be able to beat the odds, right?

401Ks are on their way out because they have failed most folks. They were originally designed as a tax dodge for upper management and were never intended as the sole vehicle to guarantee income security when one is no longer able to fend for oneself. It's a fact that even the Wall Street Journal is reporting on. (not exactly a liberal paper...)

The solution is so much less sexy because it involves reforming the Bankruptcy system so it can no longer be misused by marauding managers for their personal gain, union contract busting, and or gaining unfair market advantages over your competitors. The money is gone only because corrupt judges will allow the money to be misappropriated. That is not the fault of pilots or any other folks who lost out on their pensions. It's the fault of greedy, amoral people hiding behind a really poorly written law that is a national disgrace.

 

[Flybywire44]

Nice rhetoric, but have you not seen the studies that most Americans are unable or unwilling to save enough in their 401Ks to have a comfortable retirement in old age. Who is going to take care of them? It's going to be u and I through higher taxes. The stock market is so volatile now that even professional hedge fund managers are no longer making the kinds of returns they used to, but pilots are so much smarter, they will be able to beat the odds, right?

401Ks are on their way out because they have failed most folks. They were originally designed as a tax dodge for upper management and were never intended as the sole vehicle to guarantee income security when one is no longer able to fend for oneself. It's a fact that even the Wall Street Journal is reporting on. (not exactly a liberal paper...)

The solution is so much less sexy because it involves reforming the Bankruptcy system so it can no longer be misused by marauding managers for their personal gain, union contract busting, and or gaining unfair market advantages over your competitors. The money is gone only because corrupt judges will allow the money to be misappropriated. That is not the fault of pilots or any other folks who lost out on their pensions. It's the fault of greedy, amoral people hiding behind a really poorly written law that is a national disgrace.

The few senators who proposed making it mandatory that all 401k accounts hold a 5-15% position in Government Bonds scare me.