Ameristar, the new Schedule, and Ethics

[Wiggums]

The word is official, Ameristar's new schedule is 5 on, 2 off, plus every fourth weekend you have to work through Saturday and Sunday, making that week a 12 day straight stretch. This basically works out to 32 days more work per year, with no increase in pay or vacation to compensate. This is on top of already working more days per year for less pay then anyone of our other competitors.

I used to think Ameristar was a decent place to build your time and experience to move on to bigger and better things. I even recommend some friends of mine for jobs there. There are very few faster ways to build your turbine time, most importantly your turbine PIC time.

However, it turns out that the management there is completely unethical and treats the crews like they are indentured servants. Every pilot there is signed an eighteen month, non-prorated contract. The way the contract is written Ameristar could require you to work every day of the year and there would be no relief. There is basically an implied understanding about Ameristar's schedule and bases policy. To go and change the way things have been done for over a decade in one fell swoop is very unethical. Pilots have structured their lives around this implied understanding. Everyone who is commuting is in a very difficult situation, especially if they have families. Could you imagine having to tell your wife and kids that you in a few weeks you will have to move hundreds of miles, or you will only see them three days a month?

Even pilots that already live in their bases are getting treated badly. Crews get to pick their schedule for the entire year and many have bid particular groups in order to have certain days off. Now that is all completely thrown out the window. How wrong is it cause someone to miss a special event that they may have been planning all year for.

Now if that isn't enough, the schedule changes are not even the whole story. A couple of crew members have been downgraded from captain to first officer. This is legitimate, the amount of captains needed varies with the needs of the business. However, what is completely unethical is changing someones seat and pay, but then holding them to their contract they signed when they upgraded. Sure it is completely legal according to the contract, but is that the right way to treat your people?

So this is how if you work at Ameristar you are basically an indentured servant. If they were to just lay you off, at least you would be released from your training contract and be able to look for other work. However, lets say you quit because you want to see your kids and don't want a divorce, you are on the hook for $18k plus legal expenses. They could require that you work everyday of the year and it would be completely legal.

Ameristar pilots are some of the hardest working pilots in the business. They get the job done under tough conditions with poor equipment. To try to solve the companies problems on the backs of the 135 pilots is a terrible thing to do. What about new schedules for the 121 pilots? What about pay cuts for other departments? How about cleaning out some of the inept people in dispatch, crew scheduling, and maintenance? Ameristar already has the advantage of very low crew costs, if the company cannot make it on the original pay and schedule then there are other problems.

This is the time for Ameristar pilots to stand up and say enough is enough. Wether it be outright quiting, refusing trips (max safety), or calling in the teamsters, something must be done.

 

[King Hippo]

Hell ya! What he said!

 

[Master Shake]

I hear you bro. I flew for a shady, shady cargo outfit before getting hired at XJT. Though not perfect, ALPA is part of the reason I love this place. Maybe it's time for you to think about joining the club. Just some food for thought.

 

[honeycomb]

It has been said that Compensation (with QOL issues too) is the only way to tell a good flight department from a bad one.

I would go farther.....ANY PLACE that requires a contract for training is a SCUM-BAG operation.

I wish you and your buddy's the best. Go get'em.

I wished everyone could leave at the end of their contracts. And, put them in the hurt locker.

Until we stand up....we will get treated like this from mgmt.

Of course never under-estimate a pilot's ability to take a bad job.

Peace.

 

[CJA]

More proof of the demise of the whole profession!

 

[Captain Oveur]

Might there be a difference between arranging to give pilots a less
advantageous work schedule and being "completely unethical"? I admit,
it's kind of a blow, and NOT a good deal, but there might be a choice
between instituting the new schedule and reducing the number of pilots
considerably. $3 per gallon fuel has to make a difference....

 

[Photoflight]

Thats an easy fix man. Just start writing up every single thing, keep a list, photos, video, transcriptions of conversations. I'd say a month would probably do the trick at most cargo places.

If your fired for writing everything up...sue....get money back for contract + expenses.

If you quite you can clearly show how they were endangering you and your career...sue..get out of contract + every expense and expense of training fora new position

I had heard good things about ameristar.....thanks for the insight.

Hate to see good people treated badly.

 

[Wiggums]

Might there be a difference between arranging to give pilots a less
advantageous work schedule and being "completely unethical"? I admit,
it's kind of a blow, and NOT a good deal, but there might be a choice
between instituting the new schedule and reducing the number of pilots
considerably. $3 per gallon fuel has to make a difference....

In simple terms this is a 12% pay cut plus the pilots only get 6 days off in every 28. Plus it will not work for anyone who commutes.

If you were to be laid off you would be released from your contract and have a current 8410 that would help you find other work. You would also get unemployment and WIC.

In the current plan you cannot quit because if you do you owe 100% of the training contract.

 

[AMDFlyer]

...This is the time for Ameristar pilots to stand up and say enough is enough. Wether it be outright quiting, refusing trips (max safety), or calling in the teamsters, something must be done.[/quote]

Lets's give Mgmt the benefits of the doubt and think for a moment that they also tried to prevent lay-offs, I am not saying that I like what I see; let's suppose the new schedule might not be a permanent deal; let's give the company sometime to breathe and gasp some fresh air given the grief circumstances, let's give them sometime....what do you think?

 

[pilotyip]

Free to leave

No training contract at USA Jet, if you feel you being are treated badly, you are free to leave. If you have done a good job, we will give you letters of recommendation. In spite of riding the same on-demand roller coaster, our turnover without a contract is around 10% per year, most leaving for what they feel are better jobs flying for Spirit, Kalita etc. There are tremendous savings with low turnover.

 

[AC560]

I would go farther.....ANY PLACE that requires a contract for training is a SCUM-BAG operation.

Why is it unreasonable for a company to ensure if it invests a lot of money in training somebody that they get the benefit of that training? I think it is fair for a company who pays for your type rating to get the use of that rating, not their competitor.

Obviously if the contract or other conditions are unfair to the employee the correct thing to do is not sign it and not work there. But I don't see why it is a wholly evil thing.

 

[honeycomb]

Really?

Why is it unreasonable for a company to ensure if it invests a lot of money in training somebody that they get the benefit of that training? I think it is fair for a company who pays for your type rating to get the use of that rating, not their competitor.

I think you have swallowed the bait, hook, line, rod and reel, bait bucket and tackle box. I doubt you have worked too many places that do and do not require such a document. Though I have never worked for such a company... my opinions are from 20 plus years in a professional aviation observation post.

But, let me give you the absolute minimum on the subject.

There is a reason why they need such a document. And, instead of fixing the problem (work enviornment, pay/qol) they force you to give loyality without any return.

Do you think that these contracts are signed by the employeer? No only the employee. It is a one way street. If you, for some reason, ask to get a guarantee on your pay for that period of time.... What do you think the company would say. If you made them sign a document that read... No provisions of pay and qol will change during my tenure of employment under this contract OR it becomes nullllll and voooooid.

If they want to protect the investment then: ONE, Pay and QOL are the best way to keep a pilot. TWO, Do a better job of interviewing. Find out why or what is motivating the pilot. Does he really want to work here or is he a type rating whore?

It is the company's fault not the pilots'.

Obviously if the contract or other conditions are unfair to the employee the correct thing to do is not sign it and not work there. But I don't see why it is a wholly evil thing.

Like I said Never Under-Estimate a Pilot and his/her ability to take a BAD Job!

 

[pilotyip]

Nature of On-Demand

Thanks honeycomb for having all the answers, I sure all of us in the on-demand business now feel a lot better about the whole situation. You can go back to your perfect world of QOL and pay with a sense of having served the greater whole of the aviaiton community, and let those of us who had to sacrifice QOL for eating get on with our miserable existence.

 

[honeycomb]

PilotYIP,

Sir, I don't know you. I would venture a guess on a few things about you...but I will not go so far as to tell you I know you.

But, I do wish to tell you this.... you make me SICK everytime you post. You may have one to two posts I can agree with.

This hiring boom..... you are all over the place! And, you are everywhere saying how great things are going to be.

Though, you are a mgmt type.

Your profile says it all. You are an Amateur! And, nothing more Sir.

The rest of us Professionals (look up the difference in the dictionary) are tired (I for One am sick and tired) of your assualt on the pursuit of a PAY CHECK AND DAYS OFF in this profession!

Do me a favor the next time you don't like my post PM me Sir (and I use that term lightly).

I have refrained from any public comments but you have left me No other choice with your now public comments.

You sir would not know a quality job if it hit you over the head. So, I doubt you'll ever know.

 

[NJA bound]

Unite http://www.ibt1108.org/index.html

Professional Aviators with Strong Union Representation

The International Brotherhood of Teamsters Local 1108 is dedicated to professional union representation for professional aviators. Our mission is to remove pilot job security, wages, benefits, and working conditions from the competitive consumer market by advocating a “safety first” work environment and establishing professional collective bargaining agreement standards across the industry. Strong Union representation neutralizes management pressures that focus on profits at the expense of safety. Professional career opportunities attract the best pilots, and only professional collective bargaining agreements provide stable professional career opportunities.​

 

[Tug Driver]

BINGO...good post!

Funny how even though the "official word" has been circulating since Monday, I have yet to hear from anyone at the CP office. Ever hear of a memo? So much for communication...

The word is official, Ameristar's new schedule is 5 on, 2 off, plus every fourth weekend you have to work through Saturday and Sunday, making that week a 12 day straight stretch. This basically works out to 32 days more work per year, with no increase in pay or vacation to compensate. This is on top of already working more days per year for less pay then anyone of our other competitors.

I used to think Ameristar was a decent place to build your time and experience to move on to bigger and better things. I even recommend some friends of mine for jobs there. There are very few faster ways to build your turbine time, most importantly your turbine PIC time.

However, it turns out that the management there is completely unethical and treats the crews like they are indentured servants. Every pilot there is signed an eighteen month, non-prorated contract. The way the contract is written Ameristar could require you to work every day of the year and there would be no relief. There is basically an implied understanding about Ameristar's schedule and bases policy. To go and change the way things have been done for over a decade in one fell swoop is very unethical. Pilots have structured their lives around this implied understanding. Everyone who is commuting is in a very difficult situation, especially if they have families. Could you imagine having to tell your wife and kids that you in a few weeks you will have to move hundreds of miles, or you will only see them three days a month?

Even pilots that already live in their bases are getting treated badly. Crews get to pick their schedule for the entire year and many have bid particular groups in order to have certain days off. Now that is all completely thrown out the window. How wrong is it cause someone to miss a special event that they may have been planning all year for.

Now if that isn't enough, the schedule changes are not even the whole story. A couple of crew members have been downgraded from captain to first officer. This is legitimate, the amount of captains needed varies with the needs of the business. However, what is completely unethical is changing someones seat and pay, but then holding them to their contract they signed when they upgraded. Sure it is completely legal according to the contract, but is that the right way to treat your people?

So this is how if you work at Ameristar you are basically an indentured servant. If they were to just lay you off, at least you would be released from your training contract and be able to look for other work. However, lets say you quit because you want to see your kids and don't want a divorce, you are on the hook for $18k plus legal expenses. They could require that you work everyday of the year and it would be completely legal.

Ameristar pilots are some of the hardest working pilots in the business. They get the job done under tough conditions with poor equipment. To try to solve the companies problems on the backs of the 135 pilots is a terrible thing to do. What about new schedules for the 121 pilots? What about pay cuts for other departments? How about cleaning out some of the inept people in dispatch, crew scheduling, and maintenance? Ameristar already has the advantage of very low crew costs, if the company cannot make it on the original pay and schedule then there are other problems.

This is the time for Ameristar pilots to stand up and say enough is enough. Wether it be outright quiting, refusing trips (max safety), or calling in the teamsters, something must be done.

 

[FreightNazi]

Thats an easy fix man. Just start writing up every single thing, keep a list, photos, video, transcriptions of conversations. I'd say a month would probably do the trick at most cargo places.

If your fired for writing everything up...sue....get money back for contract + expenses.

If you quite you can clearly show how they were endangering you and your career...sue..get out of contract + every expense and expense of training fora new position

I had heard good things about ameristar.....thanks for the insight.

Hate to see good people treated badly.

Why aren't you doing this already? You bitch about not being treated as a professional. Professional pilots don't fly around in broken airplanes, nursing them along to save the hassle of not getting to where they want to go.

 

[Deskbound]

Mr. Wiggums, you are misinformed. The new schedule has the exact same number of days working, not 32 more, as you alleged. It is my understanding that the recent upgrades will continue to receive captain's pay regardless of what seat they are flying in.

 

[AC560]

I think you have swallowed the bait, hook, line, rod and reel, bait bucket and tackle box. I doubt you have worked too many places that do and do not require such a document. Though I have never worked for such a company... my opinions are from 20 plus years in a professional aviation observation post.

No I have never worked anyplace that engages in pilot training contracts. I have worked though and signed contracts guaranteeing my employment for a period of time in exchange for moving expenses, education expenses, etc. What benefit is it to the company to spend $50K to train me and now because I am more valuable asset lose me to a competitor before they can recoup their investment?

There is a reason why they need such a document. And, instead of fixing the problem (work enviornment, pay/qol) they force you to give loyality without any return.

Because there aren't pilots that would take a job from a good employer, with good QOL, and fair pay to get a type rating and then 6 months later leave for a better job leaving the company out a lot of money?

Like I said Never Under-Estimate a Pilot and his/her ability to take a BAD Job!

Piloting a modern aircraft and knowing the various FAR's isn't done by stupid people. I am constantly amazed at the knowledge exhibited by most posters here. If you can past the ATP written, you are smart enough to read a contract.

If its a bad deal don't sign it, don't take the job, but certainly don't blame the company for your poor decision.

 

[pilotyip]

Desk bound, from what I hear, piltos have gone from 8 days off every 28 days to 6 days off every 28 days, how is that not working more?

 

[Windsor]

Mr. Wiggums, you are misinformed. The new schedule has the exact same number of days working, not 32 more, as you alleged. It is my understanding that the recent upgrades will continue to receive captain's pay regardless of what seat they are flying in.

How do you figure? we get 6 days off a month. 6 x 12 = 72
throw in the " 9 "days vacation 3 times a year. 9 x 3 = 27
which gives us a grand total of 99 days off

current schedual 110 days off
this equals more work for same pay ='s paycut
if i am wrong, please correct me, but this is my understanding of it.

On another note, my problem with this whole situation lies with upper management, not the CP's office. If it were up to them, we'd have a 7 and 7.
I think as a pilot group, we need to come up with a solution to our problem. This 5 on 2 off is not set in stone. If we can come up with a better schedule, then the CP's will go to bat for us. We need to put our heads together and find something that will give us coverage and time off.

 

[Tug Driver]

Maybe the CP's should issue a memo and solicit some input. Why won't a 7/7 schedule work? What are they trying to figure out? How about keeping the pilots in the loop?

60 heads are better than 1

On another note, my problem with this whole situation lies with upper management, not the CP's office. If it were up to them, we'd have a 7 and 7.
I think as a pilot group, we need to come up with a solution to our problem. This 5 on 2 off is not set in stone. If we can come up with a better schedule, than the CP's will go to bat for us. We need to put our heads together and find something that will give us coverage and time off.

 

[honeycomb]

Not so Fast...

Piloting a modern aircraft and knowing the various FAR's isn't done by stupid people. I am constantly amazed at the knowledge exhibited by most posters here. If you can past the ATP written, you are smart enough to read a contract.

I am sure with 750 hours you are the best judge of what it takes and what everyone out there can do.

Just a question.... has there ever been a time when an a/c crashed because of unqualified people....They all had an ATP/Type Rating did they not? Not a lot of Non-Certificated pilots getting jobs...right?

Here is a tip from your Uncle Honeycomb....Pilots fly a/c good....but make terrible negotiators.

If its a bad deal don't sign it, don't take the job, but certainly don't blame the company for your poor decision.

I am not blaming the company for someone signing the contract. I said that the reason we have contracts are because of the companies poor mgmt.

And, Like I said "Never under-estimate a pilot's ability to take a bad job". Do I need to spell it out for ya'?

I am blaming the pilots who sign such a terrible deal. But they did what they had to do. And, look where it has gotten them. Mgmt again taking advantage of the pilot group. It wasn't enough that they have the training department paid for by the, now slaves, servants they call pilots. Look at the power they have given mgmt.

But, a smart pilot would have written protections for him/her self in the training contract. Like guaranteed pay...No pay cuts...No days off reduction.... and so on.

Oh, and good for you...I haven't signed one either. But I am not starving and looking for work to pay bills.

I hope that these guys beat Ameristar about the head when they can. Like leaving for any job when they are up for contractual training obligations.

 

[AMDFlyer]

Beside the real Issue of the schedule has anyone asked himself the question:
How long is the company going to last at this pace?
Fewer trips, some cancelled and so on...

good luck

 

[Deskbound]

Windsor, thank you for being more informed; you ask good questions. To answer them, we should probably wait for the company memo to come out, but I am holding a draft of it right now and will answer some of the math. First, though all groups all have at least six days off per month, a couple months have at least eight days off. I counted three of the groups and I show 79 - 81 days off per the schedule. Then add in your 9 days, etc. I know the chiefs solicited opinions because they wanted crews genuine input - not to start a flame where someone alleges 12% pay cuts and, effectively, an extra month per year of work! Let's see what gets published from the Chiefs office in the next day or two. Safe travel!

 

[AMDFlyer]

Dear deskbound,

how are the chiefs getting in touch with the Pilots? by e-mail or phone call?
what will be the nature of the inputs? only schedule or will the pilot be free to address other issues?

best regards

 

[AC560]

I am sure with 750 hours you are the best judge of what it takes and what everyone out there can do.

You are right I wrongly assumed with my @750hrs that you were smart enough to be able to engage in a meaningful discussion; I was wrong.

 

[cynic]

Ummmmm..... hmmmmm.......

Well you smacktards took low paying jobs as pilots, signed an employement contract.....

RED FLAG RED FLAG RED FLAG RED FLAG RED FLAG RED FLAG

And now yer all mad because you get paid crap and treated like a smacktard.

It is what it is. You knew what it was when you started.

BTW - Its not going to get better.

 

[honeycomb]

Wrong...Yes....

You are right I wrongly assumed with my @750hrs that you were smart enough to be able to engage in a meaningful discussion; I was wrong.

You may engage in the discussion....But, How many different pilots have you flown with?

My point is that you are not equiped to make such a call of Pilot intellect. Sorry.

I have flown with over 1,000 different pilots. Mostly at the Airlines. I will tell you that I have flown with many a pilot (with ATP's) that could not be that bright. You are mis-taken intellegence and common sense smarts.

And, your point was that with an ATP you should be a great Lawyer....oh sorry you said "If you can past the ATP written, you are smart enough to read a contract."

And this is not true. I know this. You don't have the experience to say such non-sense. Maybe after you have been in the industry a few more years. But, right now....you haven't got the experience with what other aviators are or are not capable of regardless of you Total Time.

That was my point.

Hey continue to play devil's advocate all you want.

 

[AMDFlyer]

Ummmmm..... hmmmmm.......

Well you smacktards took low paying jobs as pilots, signed an employement contract.....

RED FLAG RED FLAG RED FLAG RED FLAG RED FLAG RED FLAG

And now yer all mad because you get paid crap and treated like a smacktard.

It is what it is. You knew what it was when you started.

BTW - Its not going to get better.

Cynic,

why don't you make a nice bundle of your own business and take good care of it? Maybe for a long time just enough for all those christians to solve their problems...

BTW it was historically proven that flying at those outfits is potentially more remunerative than a regional carrier and just as good for your resume`.

Keep on switching the switches in your Lear...contract pilot!