Ameristar, the new Schedule, and Ethics

[Windsor]

Mr. Wiggums, you are misinformed. The new schedule has the exact same number of days working, not 32 more, as you alleged. It is my understanding that the recent upgrades will continue to receive captain's pay regardless of what seat they are flying in.

How do you figure? we get 6 days off a month. 6 x 12 = 72
throw in the " 9 "days vacation 3 times a year. 9 x 3 = 27
which gives us a grand total of 99 days off

current schedual 110 days off
this equals more work for same pay ='s paycut
if i am wrong, please correct me, but this is my understanding of it.

On another note, my problem with this whole situation lies with upper management, not the CP's office. If it were up to them, we'd have a 7 and 7.
I think as a pilot group, we need to come up with a solution to our problem. This 5 on 2 off is not set in stone. If we can come up with a better schedule, then the CP's will go to bat for us. We need to put our heads together and find something that will give us coverage and time off.

 

[Tug Driver]

Maybe the CP's should issue a memo and solicit some input. Why won't a 7/7 schedule work? What are they trying to figure out? How about keeping the pilots in the loop?

60 heads are better than 1

On another note, my problem with this whole situation lies with upper management, not the CP's office. If it were up to them, we'd have a 7 and 7.
I think as a pilot group, we need to come up with a solution to our problem. This 5 on 2 off is not set in stone. If we can come up with a better schedule, than the CP's will go to bat for us. We need to put our heads together and find something that will give us coverage and time off.

 

[honeycomb]

Not so Fast...

Piloting a modern aircraft and knowing the various FAR's isn't done by stupid people. I am constantly amazed at the knowledge exhibited by most posters here. If you can past the ATP written, you are smart enough to read a contract.

I am sure with 750 hours you are the best judge of what it takes and what everyone out there can do.

Just a question.... has there ever been a time when an a/c crashed because of unqualified people....They all had an ATP/Type Rating did they not? Not a lot of Non-Certificated pilots getting jobs...right?

Here is a tip from your Uncle Honeycomb....Pilots fly a/c good....but make terrible negotiators.

If its a bad deal don't sign it, don't take the job, but certainly don't blame the company for your poor decision.

I am not blaming the company for someone signing the contract. I said that the reason we have contracts are because of the companies poor mgmt.

And, Like I said "Never under-estimate a pilot's ability to take a bad job". Do I need to spell it out for ya'?

I am blaming the pilots who sign such a terrible deal. But they did what they had to do. And, look where it has gotten them. Mgmt again taking advantage of the pilot group. It wasn't enough that they have the training department paid for by the, now slaves, servants they call pilots. Look at the power they have given mgmt.

But, a smart pilot would have written protections for him/her self in the training contract. Like guaranteed pay...No pay cuts...No days off reduction.... and so on.

Oh, and good for you...I haven't signed one either. But I am not starving and looking for work to pay bills.

I hope that these guys beat Ameristar about the head when they can. Like leaving for any job when they are up for contractual training obligations.

 

[AMDFlyer]

Beside the real Issue of the schedule has anyone asked himself the question:
How long is the company going to last at this pace?
Fewer trips, some cancelled and so on...

good luck

 

[Deskbound]

Windsor, thank you for being more informed; you ask good questions. To answer them, we should probably wait for the company memo to come out, but I am holding a draft of it right now and will answer some of the math. First, though all groups all have at least six days off per month, a couple months have at least eight days off. I counted three of the groups and I show 79 - 81 days off per the schedule. Then add in your 9 days, etc. I know the chiefs solicited opinions because they wanted crews genuine input - not to start a flame where someone alleges 12% pay cuts and, effectively, an extra month per year of work! Let's see what gets published from the Chiefs office in the next day or two. Safe travel!

 

[AMDFlyer]

Dear deskbound,

how are the chiefs getting in touch with the Pilots? by e-mail or phone call?
what will be the nature of the inputs? only schedule or will the pilot be free to address other issues?

best regards

 

[AC560]

I am sure with 750 hours you are the best judge of what it takes and what everyone out there can do.

You are right I wrongly assumed with my @750hrs that you were smart enough to be able to engage in a meaningful discussion; I was wrong.

 

[cynic]

Ummmmm..... hmmmmm.......

Well you smacktards took low paying jobs as pilots, signed an employement contract.....

RED FLAG RED FLAG RED FLAG RED FLAG RED FLAG RED FLAG

And now yer all mad because you get paid crap and treated like a smacktard.

It is what it is. You knew what it was when you started.

BTW - Its not going to get better.

 

[honeycomb]

Wrong...Yes....

You are right I wrongly assumed with my @750hrs that you were smart enough to be able to engage in a meaningful discussion; I was wrong.

You may engage in the discussion....But, How many different pilots have you flown with?

My point is that you are not equiped to make such a call of Pilot intellect. Sorry.

I have flown with over 1,000 different pilots. Mostly at the Airlines. I will tell you that I have flown with many a pilot (with ATP's) that could not be that bright. You are mis-taken intellegence and common sense smarts.

And, your point was that with an ATP you should be a great Lawyer....oh sorry you said "If you can past the ATP written, you are smart enough to read a contract."

And this is not true. I know this. You don't have the experience to say such non-sense. Maybe after you have been in the industry a few more years. But, right now....you haven't got the experience with what other aviators are or are not capable of regardless of you Total Time.

That was my point.

Hey continue to play devil's advocate all you want.

 

[AMDFlyer]

Ummmmm..... hmmmmm.......

Well you smacktards took low paying jobs as pilots, signed an employement contract.....

RED FLAG RED FLAG RED FLAG RED FLAG RED FLAG RED FLAG

And now yer all mad because you get paid crap and treated like a smacktard.

It is what it is. You knew what it was when you started.

BTW - Its not going to get better.

Cynic,

why don't you make a nice bundle of your own business and take good care of it? Maybe for a long time just enough for all those christians to solve their problems...

BTW it was historically proven that flying at those outfits is potentially more remunerative than a regional carrier and just as good for your resume`.

Keep on switching the switches in your Lear...contract pilot!

 

[SnizATP]

An up note

Guys,
I just got phone call from the Chief P. with some good news. Things are looking up for commuters a bit. More later...

Jim H.

 

[AC560]

My point is that you are not equiped to make such a call of Pilot intellect. Sorry.

I have worked with a lot of pilots in my years shipping boxes (which I assure you adds up to a lot more then 750hrs), why do I have to fly with one to know if he is smart or not? Are the pilots I know in the real estate business (aren't to many of those are there) to stupid to read a contract, or the ones that run their own business?

If the basis of this discussion was debating the finer points of flaring a 747 at MTOW out of CG on fire in six feet of snow you would have a point. The discussion though has nothing to do with flying.

 

[honeycomb]

Perspective.

Right I agree.

You have been around the more brain-y of the pilots. I have had to fly with the not so sharp.

And, to prove my point, ALPA is a shining example of Pilots Negotiating Contracts. Like I said, Pilots make great Pilots....They don't make good contract negotiators.

And, please stop hogging all the smart pilots. Let them go back to the airplane where they belong. :beer:

 

[King Hippo]

How do you figure? we get 6 days off a month. 6 x 12 = 72
throw in the " 9 "days vacation 3 times a year. 9 x 3 = 27
which gives us a grand total of 99 days off

Anyone know if the "9 day vacation" will be 9 days off, or one 5 day rotation off, with the 2 already off-days on either end included?

 

[T-REX]

I have worked with a lot of pilots in my years shipping boxes (which I assure you adds up to a lot more then 750hrs), why do I have to fly with one to know if he is smart or not? Are the pilots I know in the real estate business (aren't to many of those are there) to stupid to read a contract, or the ones that run their own business?

If the basis of this discussion was debating the finer points of flaring a 747 at MTOW out of CG on fire in six feet of snow you would have a point. The discussion though has nothing to do with flying.

Go away AC560 and Cynic-adults are talking. Someday when you get a job besides UPS ramp rat you will see that training contracts are used by regionals, fractionals and even the military.

 

[Wiggums]

Anyone know if the "9 day vacation" will be 9 days off, or one 5 day rotation off, with the 2 already off-days on either end included?

Also don't forget that in the old plan you have seven days of vacation each year.

So you need 117 days off in the new plan including vaction to break even. Or 39 addition days above the basic 5-2-5-2-5-2-12-2 pattern.

Mr. Wiggums, you are misinformed. The new schedule has the exact same number of days working, not 32 more, as you alleged.

According to the numbers you post later, there are still more working days in the year. Plus when does the nine day begin and end? How does it intergrate into the rotations?

I know the chiefs solicited opinions because they wanted crews genuine input - not to start a flame where someone alleges 12% pay cuts and, effectively, an extra month per year of work!

I know that some people were never asked their opinion. These were people who are going to be affected to most, being that they are commuters NOT based in Dallas. Why is everything always done word of mouth, and those that are not in the "inner circle" or on the BNN always get left out? Why not put out a memo or email with the PROPOSED changes and ask for written feedback?

My intent is not to make anyone personally look bad. However, I am trying to point out that the company makes the pilots feel like they are essentially expendable. Even if this is NOT how management views the employees it is how they are comming across in this situation.

 

[flyinloki]

The thing with the 7 on and 7 off schedule is it wouldn't offer enough coverage of pilots to aircraft. They would have to hire additional classes and additional upgrades to captain and we all know they aren't going to do that. With the vacation time its going to be 5 days off every 4 months....BY SENOIRITY. So if you back that up against 2 weekends its 9 days off every 4 months. So you get 15 actual vacation days every year. As for thanksgiving i've heard that everyone will be on call or manning aircraft that day even though if you are you will probably sitting in base or at an aircraft for at least 4 straight days or more because there isn't crap that is going on over that weekend. As for the company getting christmas off i'm not sure. Again it would make no sense for anyone to really be on call anyway and be a waste of money. I would assume since christmas is on a monday it would be easy to give the company the whole day off. Apparantly the memo should be issued on friday and nobody can call crew schedule about vacation or getting days owed to them until this schedule is finalized. As for notice tug the CP was supposed to be calling everybody on tuesday but apparantly that did not happen.

 

[kamikaize]

It's looking like we are gonna have 4 groups and a rotating schedule of 5/2, 5/2 and 12/2. As far as the guys that currently commute the "CP's" are FIGHTING to allow you guys to be able to go on and off the road from/to your home. nobody is gonna be displaced now. they will remain a c/c until a position opens for them. Some guys/girls have been asked to move to another base to even up the crews. not sure how much AJI will help with the costs but they appear to be working on that. There are alot of people to blame over this but its not the cp's. I wish one time Mgmt would ask the entire pilot group for an opinion or a suggestion on something and keep us informed!!!! It's our company too!!. need to save money and cut costs? ask us!!! we see and know whats going on. We all know who deskbound is so be careful guys

BNN!

 

[flyinloki]

Anyone need a room in YIP? I may have one for ya. PM me if ya have a need.

 

[Wiggums]

So you get 15 actual vacation days every year. As for thanksgiving i've heard that everyone will be on call or manning aircraft that day even though if you are you will probably sitting in base or at an aircraft for at least 4 straight days or more because there isn't crap that is going on over that weekend.

I still calculate that you are working 24 more days per year. Right now you get 117 days off including vacation. Under the new plan you would get 78+15 or 93 days off per year.

What about the issue of not being back at home on time? Under the old plan travel on your day off was never repaid. Now that the pilots will be traveling almost twice as much will time spent traveling beyond 6am be made up by the company?

If there is a new plan that makes sense and is fair then great, I would support that. Working an extra 3+ weeks for the same base pay is not a fair plan.