Ameristar, the new Schedule, and Ethics

[SnizATP]

An up note

Guys,
I just got phone call from the Chief P. with some good news. Things are looking up for commuters a bit. More later...

Jim H.

 

[AC560]

My point is that you are not equiped to make such a call of Pilot intellect. Sorry.

I have worked with a lot of pilots in my years shipping boxes (which I assure you adds up to a lot more then 750hrs), why do I have to fly with one to know if he is smart or not? Are the pilots I know in the real estate business (aren't to many of those are there) to stupid to read a contract, or the ones that run their own business?

If the basis of this discussion was debating the finer points of flaring a 747 at MTOW out of CG on fire in six feet of snow you would have a point. The discussion though has nothing to do with flying.

 

[honeycomb]

Perspective.

Right I agree.

You have been around the more brain-y of the pilots. I have had to fly with the not so sharp.

And, to prove my point, ALPA is a shining example of Pilots Negotiating Contracts. Like I said, Pilots make great Pilots....They don't make good contract negotiators.

And, please stop hogging all the smart pilots. Let them go back to the airplane where they belong. :beer:

 

[King Hippo]

How do you figure? we get 6 days off a month. 6 x 12 = 72
throw in the " 9 "days vacation 3 times a year. 9 x 3 = 27
which gives us a grand total of 99 days off

Anyone know if the "9 day vacation" will be 9 days off, or one 5 day rotation off, with the 2 already off-days on either end included?

 

[T-REX]

I have worked with a lot of pilots in my years shipping boxes (which I assure you adds up to a lot more then 750hrs), why do I have to fly with one to know if he is smart or not? Are the pilots I know in the real estate business (aren't to many of those are there) to stupid to read a contract, or the ones that run their own business?

If the basis of this discussion was debating the finer points of flaring a 747 at MTOW out of CG on fire in six feet of snow you would have a point. The discussion though has nothing to do with flying.

Go away AC560 and Cynic-adults are talking. Someday when you get a job besides UPS ramp rat you will see that training contracts are used by regionals, fractionals and even the military.

 

[Wiggums]

Anyone know if the "9 day vacation" will be 9 days off, or one 5 day rotation off, with the 2 already off-days on either end included?

Also don't forget that in the old plan you have seven days of vacation each year.

So you need 117 days off in the new plan including vaction to break even. Or 39 addition days above the basic 5-2-5-2-5-2-12-2 pattern.

Mr. Wiggums, you are misinformed. The new schedule has the exact same number of days working, not 32 more, as you alleged.

According to the numbers you post later, there are still more working days in the year. Plus when does the nine day begin and end? How does it intergrate into the rotations?

I know the chiefs solicited opinions because they wanted crews genuine input - not to start a flame where someone alleges 12% pay cuts and, effectively, an extra month per year of work!

I know that some people were never asked their opinion. These were people who are going to be affected to most, being that they are commuters NOT based in Dallas. Why is everything always done word of mouth, and those that are not in the "inner circle" or on the BNN always get left out? Why not put out a memo or email with the PROPOSED changes and ask for written feedback?

My intent is not to make anyone personally look bad. However, I am trying to point out that the company makes the pilots feel like they are essentially expendable. Even if this is NOT how management views the employees it is how they are comming across in this situation.

 

[flyinloki]

The thing with the 7 on and 7 off schedule is it wouldn't offer enough coverage of pilots to aircraft. They would have to hire additional classes and additional upgrades to captain and we all know they aren't going to do that. With the vacation time its going to be 5 days off every 4 months....BY SENOIRITY. So if you back that up against 2 weekends its 9 days off every 4 months. So you get 15 actual vacation days every year. As for thanksgiving i've heard that everyone will be on call or manning aircraft that day even though if you are you will probably sitting in base or at an aircraft for at least 4 straight days or more because there isn't crap that is going on over that weekend. As for the company getting christmas off i'm not sure. Again it would make no sense for anyone to really be on call anyway and be a waste of money. I would assume since christmas is on a monday it would be easy to give the company the whole day off. Apparantly the memo should be issued on friday and nobody can call crew schedule about vacation or getting days owed to them until this schedule is finalized. As for notice tug the CP was supposed to be calling everybody on tuesday but apparantly that did not happen.

 

[kamikaize]

It's looking like we are gonna have 4 groups and a rotating schedule of 5/2, 5/2 and 12/2. As far as the guys that currently commute the "CP's" are FIGHTING to allow you guys to be able to go on and off the road from/to your home. nobody is gonna be displaced now. they will remain a c/c until a position opens for them. Some guys/girls have been asked to move to another base to even up the crews. not sure how much AJI will help with the costs but they appear to be working on that. There are alot of people to blame over this but its not the cp's. I wish one time Mgmt would ask the entire pilot group for an opinion or a suggestion on something and keep us informed!!!! It's our company too!!. need to save money and cut costs? ask us!!! we see and know whats going on. We all know who deskbound is so be careful guys

BNN!

 

[flyinloki]

Anyone need a room in YIP? I may have one for ya. PM me if ya have a need.

 

[Wiggums]

So you get 15 actual vacation days every year. As for thanksgiving i've heard that everyone will be on call or manning aircraft that day even though if you are you will probably sitting in base or at an aircraft for at least 4 straight days or more because there isn't crap that is going on over that weekend.

I still calculate that you are working 24 more days per year. Right now you get 117 days off including vacation. Under the new plan you would get 78+15 or 93 days off per year.

What about the issue of not being back at home on time? Under the old plan travel on your day off was never repaid. Now that the pilots will be traveling almost twice as much will time spent traveling beyond 6am be made up by the company?

If there is a new plan that makes sense and is fair then great, I would support that. Working an extra 3+ weeks for the same base pay is not a fair plan.

 

[Windsor]

If there is a new plan that makes sense and is fair then great, I would support that. Working an extra 3+ weeks for the same base pay is not a fair plan.

I'm sure we'll be able to come up with something that'll make us happier. It's not rocket science. We have plenty of time to think as we sit in our hotel rooms posting on flightinfo and looking at porn.

 

[atpcliff]

Hi!

If any of U want more info on USA jet, pm me.

cliff
YIP

 

[jobear]

How about YIP and Cliff minding your own store and slap some engines on them busted a$$ 9's

 

[Baby Cakes]

I hear the Teamsters have Ameristar set on their sights. Conditions like that are the reasons unions roll in. Hello, management!

 

[Wiggums]

I hear the Teamsters have Ameristar set on their sights. Conditions like that are the reasons unions roll in. Hello, management!

A union is not an appropriate solution to this problem. It was something I wrote in a less then rational moment.

All mentioning teamsters did was bring a bunch of Netjets guys here suggesting that we can all go work over there.

 

[AMDFlyer]

A union is not an appropriate solution to this problem. It was something I wrote in a less then rational moment.

All mentioning teamsters did was bring a bunch of Netjets guys here suggesting that we can all go work over there.

do not forget guys that unions apply a fee for their service despite being non-profit and I was reading an article where it was demonstrated that you need at least a group of about 500 workers or more of the same category to make it worth in order to have the Teamsters interveine for the cause of the above; it all amounts to the related expenses that an union has to afford in order to accept the task to defend whatever cause.

 

[DrewBlows]

A union is not an appropriate solution to this problem. It was something I wrote in a less then rational moment.

Why is a union not appropriate? It seems to me that if a union can negotiate more than it costs, you are getting a good deal. It's a very simple cost-benefit analysis. I don't know if Ameristar would benefit from a union or not, but it seems to me that they could do better than 5-2-5-2-12-2. Even the threat of a union should get you more than that.

 

[exagony]

Ameristar and ethics - now that's funny!!

 

[falcon20driver]

We all know who deskbound is so be careful guys

Thought I knew, now I'm not so sure.

 

[CherryBomb]

Now you guys have the Cherry Air schedule. Its spreding like a disease...

 

[Loco Gringo]

The word is official, Ameristar's new schedule is 5 on, 2 off, plus every fourth weekend you have to work through Saturday and Sunday, making that week a 12 day straight stretch. This basically works out to 32 days more work per year, with no increase in pay or vacation to compensate. This is on top of already working more days per year for less pay then anyone of our other competitors.

I used to think Ameristar was a decent place to build your time and experience to move on to bigger and better things. I even recommend some friends of mine for jobs there. There are very few faster ways to build your turbine time, most importantly your turbine PIC time.

However, it turns out that the management there is completely unethical and treats the crews like they are indentured servants. Every pilot there is signed an eighteen month, non-prorated contract. The way the contract is written Ameristar could require you to work every day of the year and there would be no relief. There is basically an implied understanding about Ameristar's schedule and bases policy. To go and change the way things have been done for over a decade in one fell swoop is very unethical. Pilots have structured their lives around this implied understanding. Everyone who is commuting is in a very difficult situation, especially if they have families. Could you imagine having to tell your wife and kids that you in a few weeks you will have to move hundreds of miles, or you will only see them three days a month?

Even pilots that already live in their bases are getting treated badly. Crews get to pick their schedule for the entire year and many have bid particular groups in order to have certain days off. Now that is all completely thrown out the window. How wrong is it cause someone to miss a special event that they may have been planning all year for.

Now if that isn't enough, the schedule changes are not even the whole story. A couple of crew members have been downgraded from captain to first officer. This is legitimate, the amount of captains needed varies with the needs of the business. However, what is completely unethical is changing someones seat and pay, but then holding them to their contract they signed when they upgraded. Sure it is completely legal according to the contract, but is that the right way to treat your people?

So this is how if you work at Ameristar you are basically an indentured servant. If they were to just lay you off, at least you would be released from your training contract and be able to look for other work. However, lets say you quit because you want to see your kids and don't want a divorce, you are on the hook for $18k plus legal expenses. They could require that you work everyday of the year and it would be completely legal.

Ameristar pilots are some of the hardest working pilots in the business. They get the job done under tough conditions with poor equipment. To try to solve the companies problems on the backs of the 135 pilots is a terrible thing to do. What about new schedules for the 121 pilots? What about pay cuts for other departments? How about cleaning out some of the inept people in dispatch, crew scheduling, and maintenance? Ameristar already has the advantage of very low crew costs, if the company cannot make it on the original pay and schedule then there are other problems.

This is the time for Ameristar pilots to stand up and say enough is enough. Wether it be outright quiting, refusing trips (max safety), or calling in the teamsters, something must be done.

Not sure this schedule is going to work, they are increasing the commutes from 2 to 4 a month potentiality doubling the number of airline tickets. But we shall see.

 

[Loco Gringo]

It has been said that Compensation (with QOL issues too) is the only way to tell a good flight department from a bad one.

I would go farther.....ANY PLACE that requires a contract for training is a SCUM-BAG operation.

I wish you and your buddy's the best. Go get'em.

I wished everyone could leave at the end of their contracts. And, put them in the hurt locker.

Until we stand up....we will get treated like this from mgmt.

Of course never under-estimate a pilot's ability to take a bad job.

Peace.

honeycomb you have got to have better things to do than sit around posting to a stupid web site all day, my god man get a life!

There are no illusions at Ameristar especially the 135, will be nothing more than a place to build jet time it's on demand freight after all. The contracts came about because in the 90's FlexJet required a LearJet type so people bailed before the ink was dry. There were no contracts for FO's until FlexJet dropped the the Lear type, then they had people get a couple of hundred hours LearJet time then bail. I actually know people that were told by FlexJet to get a job at Ameristar to get some LearJet time so they could meet the mins.. So to keep from becoming the training dept. for FlexJet the fresh upgrades and new hires got contracts because of those that went before.

3 years is basically all they try to get out of a pilot, 12 to 18 as FO 18 as captain anything more is gravy, so your theory of leaving at the end of the contract to screw them just won't work. Besides where do you suggest they go.

 

[Loco Gringo]

PilotYIP,

Sir, I don't know you. I would venture a guess on a few things about you...but I will not go so far as to tell you I know you.

But, I do wish to tell you this.... you make me SICK everytime you post. You may have one to two posts I can agree with.

This hiring boom..... you are all over the place! And, you are everywhere saying how great things are going to be.

Though, you are a mgmt type.

Your profile says it all. You are an Amateur! And, nothing more Sir.

The rest of us Professionals (look up the difference in the dictionary) are tired (I for One am sick and tired) of your assualt on the pursuit of a PAY CHECK AND DAYS OFF in this profession!

Do me a favor the next time you don't like my post PM me Sir (and I use that term lightly).

I have refrained from any public comments but you have left me No other choice with your now public comments.

You sir would not know a quality job if it hit you over the head. So, I doubt you'll ever know.

I know PILOTYIP he is a pretty good sh1t

 

[Loco Gringo]

I hear the Teamsters have Ameristar set on their sights. Conditions like that are the reasons unions roll in. Hello, management!

non union USA JET and CHERRY AIR will kill you, or TW will just say screw it and shut down. You will never get a union in a right to work state like Texas, couple of years ago USA Jet failed in a heavy union state like Michigan.

The first to unionize will be in a world of hurt that is a fact!

 

[Loco Gringo]

Ummmmm..... hmmmmm.......

Well you smacktards took low paying jobs as pilots, signed an employement contract.....

RED FLAG RED FLAG RED FLAG RED FLAG RED FLAG RED FLAG

And now yer all mad because you get paid crap and treated like a smacktard.

It is what it is. You knew what it was when you started.

BTW - Its not going to get better.

year 1 FO 35k
year 2 junior captain 55k
year 3 60k
year 4 65k pay frozen 9/11

before 9/11 there were several making 80-100k 4-5yrs seniority in the 135

 

[cherry20's]

Were all in this together now! I know that the 5 and 2 schedule is worse than the previous one. Ours at Cherry was kind of the same thing before we went to 5 and 2. In all honesty though, don't bite my head off, its not that bad. I actually enjoy having every weekend off. All the Cherry pilots always hang out every weekend because were on the same schedule. It gives us time to get drunk and become a tighter knit group. It might actually help the moral over at Ameristar. I don't know how the group is over there though. Its really going to be bad for the guys who commute and the weekend you have to work does suck. Best of luck to you guys and I hope for the best. At least there not laying off like USA Jet did last year. I heard that they were going to do it again! Some ramp rat told me that so I don't know the credibility. Do your time, get your PIC time and hit the ground running! I always look at it like this, it can't get much worse? Good Luck

 

[ACT700]

...
It is the company's fault not the pilots'.



Like I said Never Under-Estimate a Pilot and his/her ability to take a BAD Job!

How is that? It is the pilots fault, all the way. The only reason these companies impose these "contracts" is because we (the pilots) are willing (dumb enough?) to sign them.

It is because we have let it sink this low. Sure, everybody (with a different job, right now) is going to say, "No, not me. I would never do that." But I don't see Ameristar, or whomever, hurting for pilots right now.

There's always someone willing to do it cheaper...

 

[Paradoxus]

yeah, about that...

Some of you guys have the right idea about how to handle things at AJI. Others, well....let's just say that management gets away with half of their antics expressly because the 135 workforce is so pliable and quick to capitulate.

Bring some kind of union on property and show the bastards you mean business.

Yes, the CP will masterfully manipulate your perceptions and cause you to "think" he and the others are "fighting" for the pilots. They are, in fact, collaborators; and would in no way piss on you to put you out if you were on fire.

 

[atpcliff]

Hi!

Actually, last year, USA Jet cut everyone's pay about 25% and gave everyone about 25% more days off, instead of furloughing.

So, the Falcon guys had 13 days off every 28, and the -9 guys had 15 days off, until the pay came back to normal.

cliff
YIP

 

[Windsor]

Well with Ford making large cuts in production, I think our niche market of flying is heading for the crapper. It wont be long before the rest of the auto manufacturers follow suit.