Am West won't allow 190 regional flying

[PCL_128]

Congratulations, you win the mythology award. Fact is NO flying belongs to either mainline pilots or regional pilots. The flying belongs to the Company.

Mainline pilots chose voluntarily to negotiate away the flying that they once had exclusive access to. They sold part of their house when they really didn't need to and they moved to what they saw as a bigger and better house in the same neighborhood. They were wrong. However, the house they once owned is not longer theirs.

Simply ridiculous. The mainline CBAs allow certain flying to be "outsourced" based on seats and other factors, but that doesn't transfer the actual control of the code. The code is still controlled by the mainline CBA, they just chose to allow certain flying to be done by another pilot group. In essence, they are allowing the regionals to "borrow" flying that their CBA controls. Flying may belong to the company, but the company negotiated a CBA with the Association that gives control of the code to the Assocation through the scope clause.

 

[surplus1]

One big problem though Surplus: the reforms that you would like to see would destroy the Association. Eliminating scope as we know it and allowing "bidding" on all flying is the scariest thing I can imagine for this profession. You should listen to GogglesPisano. He has it right. The flying (code) is owned and controlled by the mainline pilot groups just as it should be. The AWA pilots are putting their foot down, and not a moment too soon.

What you and the mainliners won't recognize is the fact that no one is attempting to eliminate scope as we know it. The problem is that you want scope as we once knew it. Note the subtle difference.

You cannot restore what you once had without harming the person that has it now. Obviously you don't care if you do that as long as you get what you want. There are others who do care, and their rights are equal under the law.

I do not seek to eliminate scope and replace it with "bidding". In fact I agree completely that bidding wars are detrimental to the entire profession. Unfortunately, that climate has already been created by the mainline pilots who gave up their scope for money, and our Union which seeks to favor them in preference to us. The "bidding war" is already with us and it was created by our own actions as well as our inaction (as a union).

Now they seek to take back what they already sold by writing new scope that would have the effect of eliminating my job. That I will not allow if I can help it.

We could have eliminated or at least minimized the problem by sitting down with each other and deciding jointly how to draw an appropriate line. That could not be done because one side (the mainline) saw itself as a "super power" that could simply dictate to the other side whatever it chose and had no need to listen to anything but its own voice. Wrong again. The result is an open conflict of interest.

I'm sorry, but the code (flying) is neither owned or controlled by the mainline pilots, they bargained that away and they will not get it back unless the Company chooses to sell it to them. So far, not a single management has sold anything back and they (the mainline pilots) have continued to sell more and more of what once was exclusively theirs, while proclaiming loudly that it still belongs to them. A classic case of eating you cake and having it at the same time. That hasn't worked yet and it won't work. The companies have way too much leverage, especially in this economic climate.

Mark my words: Forever more, every "mainline" carrier will be forced to negotiate lesser scope restrictions every time they sit with the Company at the bargaining table. The price of "scope" will be raised higher and higher by the Company. End result = bidding wars, courtesy of mainline pilot groups/ALPA (which are one and the same). Don'y think you belong to the club just because you are occasionally permitted to be a fly on the wall. They only let you listen to whatever they want you to hear. At other times, every mainline MEC lies like the proverbial rug, pretending to extend the olive branch, while privately plotting to do you in.

It only "works" within the union because the union is prejudiced in favor of some of its members and against others of its members. That is because is being run by those with the prejudice. The fox is in the hen house. It doesn't take rocket science to figure that out.

I don't know the exact terms of the AWA contract. Perhaps it does prevent the operation of any more aircraft of that size on behalf of America West. If so, I perfectly understand why they want to keep it that way. On the other hand, USAirways contract permits the operation of 25 of the aircraft in question. Another conflict.

When the companies merge, those contractual differences will have to be reconciled, regardless of what the AWA pilots do or don't want to do. Once again, the Company, which owns both the "code" and the "flying" has the upper hand. They didn't get it because some regional pilot groups wants to take "mainline flying". They got it beacuse the mainline pilots gave it to them. So let's not get carried away blaming regional pilots for this mess.

Those folks also have to agree to seniority integration (between AWA and USA), which the Company will have to accept. What are they going to do when the Company says: Well, you got your choice, give us the 190's that we want per the USA agreement or we will integrate you by date of hire and accept the USA CBA as superior to yours. How long after that will the AWA pilots continue to "put their foot down"?

A sensible soultion to this overall problem could be reached on all properties if ALPA would get realistic instead of hanging on to a pipe dream. It is not my ideas that would destroy ALPA. ALPA's own continued recalcitrance most surely could.

"What a tangled web we weave when first we practice to deceive."

 

[PCL_128]

Surplus, the big problem with your post is that no one is trying to take anything that you (or the CHQ pilots) already have. The General is not trying to take back your 70 seaters, and the AWA pilots are not trying to take back the flying that the CHQ pilots already have. They are simply trying to avoid yet more flying being outsourced.

You say that "You cannot restore what you once had without harming the person that has it now." Who is being harmed by the AWA pilots preventing the further outsourcing of their flying? No regional pilot will be furloughed as a result of this. No one will take a pay cut. No one is harmed in any way.

 

[180ToTheMarker]

25 airplanes and 250 potential jobs will be "lost" at Republic along with 125 upgrades. If you don't think that's detrimental to that airline and its pilots, then I guess you haven't been around this business long enough to know which side is up.

How can you lose jobs on airplanes you don't have? By your theory we could argue that mainline will lose those jobs if they don't fly those. Would you say mainline jobs were lost when DCI orderd 400 RJs?

 

[BenderGonzales]

"It is now occupied by a different family, which has as much right to occupy it as they once did. The new family aren't tenents, they bought their share before they moved in."

Is the new family actively trying to stage a coup'detat against their neighbors in order to claim more land?

Squatters rights? I dont think that a 90 seat platform was EVER in play. And if you read US Airways LOA91 I believe it says that the EMB-190 would only be outsourced to affiliates if US Airways ordered the airplane and then subsequently could not take delivery of the airplane.

So, since they never ordered the 190, this is all moot. 90 seats is still a mainline airplane.

 

[StaySeated]

blah blah blah blah


For those of you that want all NEW pilot positions at the regional level where we might make 100k in 12 years raise your hand and send the rjdc your coffee money.

For those of you that want as many new jobs at mainline as possible, start praying that the 190 never ends up at a regional. Oh wait, it already has. We are all screwed. Once JB or Republic starts to operate this career-ending-airframe the whipsaw will begin and everyone will fly this thing for 60k in the left seat. Somehow the rjdc would consider that a victory. I am certain that some of those guys are moles from ford&harrison.

oh well, jets are neat!

 

[BenderGonzales]

No. It's "Jets R' Neat"

With a backwards "R" - like in "Toys R' Us"

 

[Nindiri]

At my age (early 40's) and relatively high senority and QOL at my regional employer, I am not likely to ever leave it. Why shouldn't I want the biggest aircraft possible at my company? I don't blame the mainline guys for wanting all of it, they are looking out for their own well-being; I do not feel guilty for doing the same. I do not owe it to anyone else to sacrifice my career possibilities just so they can have more. If they want the 70 or 90 seaters, let them expend the negotiating capital to get them, but don't expect me to do their job for them.

 

[michael707767]

Once JB or Republic starts to operate this career-ending-airframe the whipsaw will begin and everyone will fly this thing for 60k in the left seat.

Hmm, I fail to see how JB operating a 190 will be a career ending event. Despite the piss poor pay, the 190 operated for Jetblue will be flown by Jetblue pilots.....no outsourcing (something the media always fails to mention when they say the majors are doomed if they don't allow their regionals to fly the 190). Frankly, give me the piss poor pay and the jobs rather than see the jobs go to someone else. For that, I say good on ya Jetblue.

 

[StaySeated]

I would love to work at jb due to the fact that they offer pay in terms of options, profit sharing, and retirement that will never be seen at the regional level, plus I would like to commute to work and watch direct tv . I fear their 190 rates due to the fact that IF the same airframe is dangled in front of another carrier (who would ever dream of such a thing) the first thing out of the company's negotiator pie whole will be "how can we compete with jb?" and then the embarrassing rates get thrown on the table.


also, I do like the "R" part of the jets r neat. Any computer guru know how to turn that bad boy around like toys r us?

nindiri, I almost forgot to reply. While I respect your position and hope that you have a great career...I do not believe the replacement of narrow body flying with rj's is the answer. My opinion, no big deal, I understand where your comin from so there is no reason surplus or any other rjdc supporter should chime in with a disertation on why their poosy hurts.