ALPA's take on the UsAir merger

[PHXFLYR]

Green:

You must have me confused with someone who has a dog left in the fight.....I may be USAir furloughed, but I am not returning. The seniority integration is just the last nail in the coffin.

You are correct the results stink...unless you are on the West side of the fence.

My beef is with ALPA and its lack of a defined merger policy. Oh, yes, there is a written policy. That policy, in its entirety is a nebulous outline that can be interpreted 100 different ways, all of which can say they followed policy. It uses big words like expectations, which cannot possibly be measured by anyone. Further, ALPA is a NEUTRAL, which is typical. If noone is steering the ship, noone knows where it will go or what hazards it will encounter.

My post about the AFA is just that....they know mergers happen. They know seniority is king. They merge DOH. No questions, no lawyers, no outside parties. No hearburn from expectations not being met or careers lost.

If you can look in the mirror and say that if the result was the opposite and not say it is flawed, good on you. I know for a fact that if the arbitrator would have stapled the west pilots I would be the first one standing with YOU in the line to ALPA headquarters........



Yeah,right.... Who you kidding?


PHXFLYR

 

[A350]

Occam:

Sorry to offend you over your precious ALPA....I never said DOH was the way to go, I simply state that if there was a set in stone policy, like the AFA, there would be no guesswork and no arguement over what is correct. The fact that ALPA is a neutral in the matter says it all. If and when the NWA guys get the short end of a seniority integration, we will see how big a cheerleader you are of their position.

My biggest problem with ALPA cheerleaders is that they will never acknowledge a problem, therefore nothing will ever change.

PHX: What I say is how I feel, and I would have no reason to deceive you. You can believe what you want, but based on the average West pilot's gain, I am not surprised at your position.

A350

 

[FDJ2]

Occam:

Sorry to offend you over your precious ALPA....I never said DOH was the way to go, I simply state that if there was a set in stone policy, like the AFA, there would be no guesswork and no arguement over what is correct.
A350

So if ALPA merger policy said that the pilots from a company in BK would be stapled to the bottom of a non bankrupt carrier, as long as it was written in stone, with no guess work, no arguments, that would be o.k. Because after all it would be a policy written in stone.;

After all, we couldn't possibly give two pilot groups the chance to negotiate first. No, that would be insane. In your world some one from national should just come on down and tell you how it is and how it should be and how it's going to be, because after all local autonomy doesn't work, pilots need to have someone from national commanding them at all times in all instances.

 

[Occam's Razor]

Occam:

Sorry to offend you over your precious ALPA....I never said DOH was the way to go, I simply state that if there was a set in stone policy, like the AFA, there would be no guesswork and no arguement over what is correct. The fact that ALPA is a neutral in the matter says it all. If and when the NWA guys get the short end of a seniority integration, we will see how big a cheerleader you are of their position.

My biggest problem with ALPA cheerleaders is that they will never acknowledge a problem, therefore nothing will ever change.

I will acknowledge that there is no "one size fits all" method for "fair" list integration...if you will. You admit that DOH might not be it.

Cool! So give me a single paragrpgh describing a method that would be considered "fair" by all pilots involved in a merger.

You blame ALPA for the failure of different pilot groups to get along. That's like blaming gravity for plane crashes.

 

[A350]

I blame ALPA because since the flying boat days, they have had zero success in unifying pilot groups. This is the fundamental reason the profession is where it is today. No unity. Failure of one is generally a boon to another.

FDJ2: A policy written in stone is not subject to interpretation, therefore there can be no disappointment. This works, because if you have been paying attention, there hasn't been a consensually agreed to seniority integration since, I can't think of one. That is why we need some leadership from the top to put in place a system that will keep the current quagmire from happening again....and it will, that is a given.

A350

 

[JT8D]

You blame ALPA for the failure of different pilot groups to get along. That's like blaming gravity for plane crashes.

I personally don't blame ALPA on the strife between the east and west. However, I DO think ALPA has become about as useful as tits on a nun.

I think the current predicament at *ahem* Northwest...*ahem*...Airlines is a shining example of that.

The easties are the only group who has unwaveringly stuck to their guns so far and REFUSE to be screwed in the post 9/11 era, ALPA or no ALPA.

 

[ferlo]

I personally don't blame ALPA on the strife between the east and west. However, I DO think ALPA has become about as useful as tits on a nun.

I think the current predicament at *ahem* Northwest...*ahem*...Airlines is a shining example of that.

The easties are the only group who has unwaveringly stuck to their guns so far and REFUSE to be screwed in the post 9/11 era, ALPA or no ALPA.

Dude, you might want to look into how binding arbitration works.

 

[JT8D]

Dude, you might want to look into how binding arbitration works.

I know how it "works"...is it working here?

The list is meaningless without a combined CBA. See that happening anytime soon?

 

[PlaneDrvr]

I know how it "works"...is it working here?

The list is meaningless without a combined CBA. See that happening anytime soon?

Bingo!!!! We have a Winner.

Not sure, but it appears from the outside that they have a 'list' that basically means NOTHING. Even if they get National to give it to the company, the AWA guys can pin it up on the wall and stare at it, but it still means Nothing without a combined contract.

And, before the list i guess they had some good 'unity' and maybe (a big maybe?) that they could push Drunk Parker (if they caught him when he was really drunk and confused), that they might have gotten 'a little' something from Mr. Low Cost Parker; but NOW, pretty much ZERO chance of ever seeing a combined contract. All the guys I know at US Air say they are going to vote "NO" on everything, so where do you AWA morons think you're going to get the votes???? They would rather take the attrition they got, become 'block holder F/Os, wide-body F/Os, or upgrade to Capt., what would you do. They are getting more QOL with the attrition and seniority gains.

And, I hear you AWA guys on here talk about the US Air guys wanting to 'burn the place down' but I have not heard that, most all are just 'doing their jobs' nothing more though. The only one who is NOT doing his job and trying to 'tear the place down' is the Drunk, Moron that you AWA guys call 'Your leader.' The only reason they are making money is because of the 'yield' on the old US Air system, and the fact that Drunk Dougie is not spending money on $hit. The guys I know over there have lost count of how many 737s have the APUs out, plus everything else he is F#&king up on!!!

I guess you guys can enjoy the 'list' if you get it, but not sure it is ever going to mean anything.

Just my $0.02, now rant away AWA morons.

DA

 

[PlaneDrvr]

This is not adding anything positive to the conversation but...........ALPA f-ing blows, along with all it's crooked money and power hungry yes-men.

Amen, Brother.

ALPA has failed to represent the membership for the last 15-20yrs. The reason you have a National union is to provide "leadership" and direction to truly improve their member's lives.

Pension reform (which alpa should have pushed for 15yrs.+ ago), Serious "RJ scope guidelines" for all alpa contracts (which alpa should have developed when the first RJ appeared about 15+ yrs. ago), and alpa merger policy is a 'joke' and has been for a long time (this whole thread is proof of it). And, the absolute best, regardless of your view on the repeal of 'age 60' for years (and probably still today), every survey of the member showed at least 70-75% against; so what does alpa do, craft a "long, carefully written survey of questions" to get the results They Wanted. Sound like a 'political campaign'?????

The 'de-certify alpa' deal going on a US Air is probably just the beginning; as I have heard that some at UAL are looking at the same thing. If US Air and at least one of the other Big players (UAL, NWA, CAL, or DAL) leave, alpa will FAIL, finally. You can't change/reform alpa, it won't change; time to burn it down and start over. All of the carriers that have the best 'unity' (and even recent gains, not losses) are 'non-alpa' UPS, SWA, APA (and I guess you can add NPA to that, good luck to my friends at airtran).

Again, just my $0.02, and again, of course, 'rant away'